Kleisto
Joined Tue 05/13/08 Posts: 5166 |
QUOTE: toddler , between when they first start walking and first start school? yeah, they are still learning, but neither of my chidren talked like' ga ga ga ga' anymore by the time they were toddlers of say two years old and both knew the basic premise that it is 'wrong' to do what mommy tells you not to,,, probably by the time they were three,,, Yes but AGAIN, if that's ALL they know, there is no way at ALL that the punishment for disobedience fit the crime here. And to answer your earlier comment, your argument fails because God CONTROLS the consequence, he doesn't HAVE to condemn them, he CHOOSES to. That's far different from the lesson learned by touching your hand on the stove, which you cannot control. He could have come up with other ways surely to teach Adam and Eve why what they did was bad given their mindsets, but no he just chose to condemn at the first thing they did wrong. It is idiotic. That's like a cop giving someone a life sentence for the first small law they broke. No logic in it at all. And why was EVERYONE except Satan punished? That is also idiotic, instead of punishing the one who did the tricking, you punish the victims, yeah that's the picture of a loving being isn't it?
Edited by Kleisto on Sat 05/19/12 08:19 PM
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Kleisto
Joined Tue 05/13/08 Posts: 5166 |
QUOTE: QUOTE: QUOTE: Honestly you guys, are you still debating this topic, and if so I cant imagine why you would want to spend so much time on this, its like not gonna make a difference anyways cause God will be back and he will be running things, and then no one is gonna be able to say squat about him, or HE WILL strike your arse down, and make you a believer the hard way, and why would anyone wanna have THAT happen to them, much less by God, cause you KNOW God can put the smack down on ya, I mean im talking T.K.O. in the first round, oh hell, you wont even get into the ring, before he'll just zap your butt, and send you down to the other dudes house, and you really dont wanna go there because its like 1000 degrees all the time, and they dont have anything to drink, and I for one need my mineral water.. Does any of that really seem like how a loving being would act luv? Simple question. lol I wasn't totally sure. Mea Culpa then. (hides face) |
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Kleisto
Joined Tue 05/13/08 Posts: 5166 |
QUOTE: QUOTE: Ok, let's stop it right there. Adam and Eve are in effect toddlers in mind in the creation story up to before the fall, can we agree to that? They have been instructed not to do something, but nothing more than that. They know nothing of why they shouldn't beyond that God tells them this. Ok, fine. We have absolutely no reason to believe that. They walked, talked, fed themselves, named animals and who knows what else. Eve had a conversation with the Serpent, which didn't sound like a toddler speaking at all. Then Adam tried to defend his actions when God questioned him. Nothing at all like toddlers. How much time passed between Genesis 2 and Genesis 3? We don't know. How intelligent and knowledgeable where Adam and Eve at creation? We have no idea. Toddlers in a mind sense then. Physically they were mature, but mentally they weren't. They had no knowledge of good and bad, they couldn't have been mature in mind on that basis alone. |
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Kleisto
Joined Tue 05/13/08 Posts: 5166 |
QUOTE: Honestly you guys, are you still debating this topic, and if so I cant imagine why you would want to spend so much time on this, its like not gonna make a difference anyways cause God will be back and he will be running things, and then no one is gonna be able to say squat about him, or HE WILL strike your arse down, and make you a believer the hard way, and why would anyone wanna have THAT happen to them, much less by God, cause you KNOW God can put the smack down on ya, I mean im talking T.K.O. in the first round, oh hell, you wont even get into the ring, before he'll just zap your butt, and send you down to the other dudes house, and you really dont wanna go there because its like 1000 degrees all the time, and they dont have anything to drink, and I for one need my mineral water.. Does any of that really seem like how a loving being would act luv? Simple question. |
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Kleisto
Joined Tue 05/13/08 Posts: 5166 |
QUOTE: QUOTE: Something's odd here MsHarmony. I would like to see the differences between good and right, and evil and wrong better explained. I mean, what can possibly be considered "good" if it is not also moral(right) as well? What could possibly be considered "evil" if it is not also bad(immoral). So what is the difference between evil/wrong and good/right? 
as simply as I can put it, I am a parent when my toddler is doing wrong she is not being 'evil', because she doesnt yet possess the knowledge to understand anything more than that she shouldnt do it, as opposed to understanding fully the impact of what she does or why she isnt supposed to do it,,, Ok, let's stop it right there. Adam and Eve are in effect toddlers in mind in the creation story up to before the fall, can we agree to that? They have been instructed not to do something, but nothing more than that. They know nothing of why they shouldn't beyond that God tells them this. Ok, fine. Now then.....if you tell your toddler NOT to touch a hot stove, and they touch it anyway, what do you do? Do you push them further into the fire for disobeying despite the fact that they really don't know what they are doing yet, or do you correct them in a direct but loving way, so that they may learn? The answer I would think would be obvious. Given this being the case, if God is supposed to be better than we are, His ways above our own, how is it that WE know that you don't throw the book at someone who really doesn't understand what they are doing yet, but He doesn't? Think for a minute, we've already established Adam and Eve had a toddler's mindset at the time of the fall, so how on earth is it possibly just for God to react in the way that He does given that being the case? It is idiotic, and lacks good sense.
Edited by Kleisto on Sat 05/12/12 09:14 AM
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Kleisto
Joined Tue 05/13/08 Posts: 5166 |
QUOTE: QUOTE: It has occured to me that the story of Adam and Eve as told in the book of Genesis, was really a case of God tricking man, NOT man falling away from God. How can I prove that you may ask? The answer I'd tell you is very simple. When God created Adam and Eve, he created them NOT knowing right from wrong. The tree of knowledge itself was said to tell you good from evil (which makes it even more absurd that God wouldn't want them to eat it, in effect saying he wanted them to be stupid) so how could they know?? They couldn't! They were innocent! So thus, if they DIDN'T know what right and wrong or good and evil was.....how could they have known it wrong to disobey God not knowing what wrong even is?! They wouldn't have. Yet somehow it's their fault for doing something they didn't even know was wrong to begin with somehow. It doesn't make a lick of sense. They were manipulated into a fall by God, they didn't fall of their own accord. Rather than continuing with the story and attempting to conclude that God "tricked" them, why not just reject the entire thing based upon the incoherence that you've set out? I actually DO reject the whole thing, I am merely pointing this out to illustrate the absolute absurdity of this story, among many others in the Bible.
Edited by Kleisto on Sat 05/12/12 09:03 AM
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Kleisto
Joined Tue 05/13/08 Posts: 5166 |
QUOTE: QUOTE: It has occured to me that the story of Adam and Eve as told in the book of Genesis, was really a case of God tricking man, NOT man falling away from God. How can I prove that you may ask? The answer I'd tell you is very simple. When God created Adam and Eve, he created them NOT knowing right from wrong. The tree of knowledge itself was said to tell you good from evil (which makes it even more absurd that God wouldn't want them to eat it, in effect saying he wanted them to be stupid) so how could they know?? They couldn't! They were innocent! So thus, if they DIDN'T know what right and wrong or good and evil was.....how could they have known it wrong to disobey God not knowing what wrong even is?! They wouldn't have. Yet somehow it's their fault for doing something they didn't even know was wrong to begin with somehow. It doesn't make a lick of sense. They were manipulated into a fall by God, they didn't fall of their own accord. there is no indicator they didnt know right from wrong right and wrong and good and evil are different standards Msharmony, they were made completely totally innocent, to the point they didn't even know they were naked! So I highly doubt they could know what right or wrong was. And it's the same thing, right/wrong, good/evil there's no difference except the word to describe it. |
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Kleisto
Joined Tue 05/13/08 Posts: 5166 |
It has occured to me that the story of Adam and Eve as told in the book of Genesis, was really a case of God tricking man, NOT man falling away from God.
How can I prove that you may ask? The answer I'd tell you is very simple. When God created Adam and Eve, he created them NOT knowing right from wrong. The tree of knowledge itself was said to tell you good from evil (which makes it even more absurd that God wouldn't want them to eat it, in effect saying he wanted them to be stupid) so how could they know?? They couldn't! They were innocent! So thus, if they DIDN'T know what right and wrong or good and evil was.....how could they have known it wrong to disobey God not knowing what wrong even is?! They wouldn't have. Yet somehow it's their fault for doing something they didn't even know was wrong to begin with somehow. It doesn't make a lick of sense. They were manipulated into a fall by God, they didn't fall of their own accord. |
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Kleisto
Joined Tue 05/13/08 Posts: 5166 |
QUOTE: Cali makes doing business difficult for EVERYONE (F****** everyone!) !!!! Money-makers be damned, money-drainers welcomed in. Not just cali I'm afraid.......it's nationwide. |
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Kleisto
Joined Tue 05/13/08 Posts: 5166 |
I feel so much safer now don't you..........
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Kleisto
Joined Tue 05/13/08 Posts: 5166 |
This is the most important part of this article:
"The public was never in danger from the explosive devices, which were inoperable and controlled by an undercover FBI employee, according to sources close to the investigation. " Between this and a New York Times article openly admitting FBI entrapment for supposed "terrorist" events.....people aren't gonna have much excuses any longer but to wake up. The true terrorists lie within our own ranks and always have since this war on terror began.
Edited by Kleisto on Wed 05/02/12 01:13 AM
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Kleisto
Joined Tue 05/13/08 Posts: 5166 |
Topic:
Controlling the News
QUOTE: (March 10)... .pro-Government rallies are to be given the fullest coverage... if anti-Government demonstrations are shown, it is desired to stress either a very small number of "eccentrics" or shots of social misfits; i.e., with beards, tattoos, physical deformities, etc. Pro-Government supporters should be seen as clean cut with as many well-groomed subjects as possible... .subjects should stress complete support for the President's programs and especially support for American military units en route to combat... also interviews with photogenic family members of participating GIs stressing loyalty and affection... American flags are always a good prop in the background... That in particular says a lot right there...... Nice find man. Don't sweat the critics, it's par for the course here. |
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Kleisto
Joined Tue 05/13/08 Posts: 5166 |
Topic:
A question of tolerance...
QUOTE: QUOTE: QUOTE: I think peoples beliefs are their personal business, and that beliefs dont need to be tolerated unless they turn into behavior then I think certain actual behaviors exhibited by an individual may or may not be wise to tolerate,,,, Problem is, if the entire reason you aren't tolerating something is based on religion......then you are stepping into their personal business in effect which you really have no place doing. huh? You said the behaviors may or may not be wise to tolerate, and I am simply saying if you aren't tolerating them SOLELY based on a religious belief, that is wrong. |
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Kleisto
Joined Tue 05/13/08 Posts: 5166 |
Topic:
A question of tolerance...
QUOTE: I think peoples beliefs are their personal business, and that beliefs dont need to be tolerated unless they turn into behavior then I think certain actual behaviors exhibited by an individual may or may not be wise to tolerate,,,, Problem is, if the entire reason you aren't tolerating something is based on religion......then you are stepping into their personal business in effect which you really have no place doing. |
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Kleisto
Joined Tue 05/13/08 Posts: 5166 |
QUOTE: QUOTE: QUOTE: seems more like a case for a healthier diet than one against flouride my sister is a dentist,, my daughter/ her niece, has a flouride treatment twice a year I doubt she would do that if it was 'poisonous' and I think she actually went to school to learn about teeth as opposed to being self taught,,,,,, Problem is, the dental industry has a role in the deception here, just as they do with mercury filled cavity fillings. Your sister may have all the right intentions, may think she is doing the right thing and working to help people, but it doesn't change the actual truth of the matter. and who has the 'actual truth' ? It's those that are under the radar, and here's a hint, you will not find it in mainstream media or in the modern medical world by and large. To see it though, you have to be willing to accept first that a lot of what you are told it is isn't. When you can do that, and let go of what you think or have been taught it is, you will be able to see it for what it actually is then, but not before. You won't see it until you are ready to see it.
Edited by Kleisto on Tue 04/10/12 03:48 PM
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Kleisto
Joined Tue 05/13/08 Posts: 5166 |
QUOTE: seems more like a case for a healthier diet than one against flouride my sister is a dentist,, my daughter/ her niece, has a flouride treatment twice a year I doubt she would do that if it was 'poisonous' and I think she actually went to school to learn about teeth as opposed to being self taught,,,,,, Problem is, the dental industry has a role in the deception here, just as they do with mercury filled cavity fillings. Your sister may have all the right intentions, may think she is doing the right thing and working to help people, but it doesn't change the actual truth of the matter. |
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Kleisto
Joined Tue 05/13/08 Posts: 5166 |
Topic:
Recovery from religion...
QUOTE: QUOTE: QUOTE: QUOTE: QUOTE: QUOTE: We don't use use God as basically a fear tactic saying if you don't things exactly right you'll burn or you'll be extinguished eternally. Religious do, that's the difference. Do we think your lives may be better if you let go of some of the ideas you have? Yes. But do we believe God will punish you if you don't? No. Therein lies the separation. I dont use God as a fear tactic either, all religious cant be painted with one brush. So what if atheists dont use God as their fear of choice? ,, its not like there arent atheists guilty of using other fear tactics on people fear of stigmatism, being labeled bigoted, fear of expressing or practicing what is important to them, far of having to 'conform, or be an outcast,fear of impending doom from other humans, fear of political conspiracies, fear of losing 'freedom',,etc,,, Well maybe sometimes you ought to take the criticisms to heart. Instead of looking at it strictly from your particularly colored glasses, maybe look outside it for once. Maybe then you'd understand why we are so vehemantly opposed to what you believe or at the least how you express that. And before you even try to say I should do the same, save it. I did this a long time ago, and it's exactly why I left religion behind, and why others left it as well. Just because you have believed something all your life, doesn't mean it is necessarily true. Assuming in effect you know all there is to know is a really bad assumption. When you stop learning, you stop growing. And religion can stunt one's growth because it discourages any ideas that may go against it, and closes the mind. Having said all that, if you wanna believe something you can, but when you start to judge others in how they are living based on YOUR belief, (ie: Homosexuality), don't be surprised when people are gonna come against you. You cross a line at that point. If it works for you, fine, but just because others subscribe to different beliefs doesn't make them wrong, and doesn't make it right for you to tell them they are wrong just because of what YOU believe. To love is to accept someone as they are, for who they are, not try to mold them into what you want them to be. QUOTE: Having said all that, if you wanna believe something you can, but when you start to judge others in how they are living based on YOUR belief, (ie: Homosexuality), don't be surprised when people are gonna come against you. A "Christian" or well a follower of Jesus would not do as you mention. Doesn't matter if the person is Homosexual, bisexual, tall, short, fat, or ugly, we are not to judge another. We are to treat everyone with the same respect, love, caring, ect. There is no "greater then thou art" with a true follower of Jesus. By telling them to deny who they are, you judge them. Can't escape that. we are who we decide to be,,,there is nothing in stone that keeps us from becoming whoever we 'wish' to be,,,, there are influences, but no truly 'universal' equation that decides it for us,,, This is true, but this isn't my point. By telling them that what they feel is wrong, even when they are happy and at peace with themselves as that person, you are still judging them. Sometimes you have to learn to mind your own business. Unless it's clear it's needed, and not just to you either, let them be who they are. |
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Kleisto
Joined Tue 05/13/08 Posts: 5166 |
Topic:
Recovery from religion...
QUOTE: QUOTE: QUOTE: QUOTE: QUOTE: QUOTE: We don't use use God as basically a fear tactic saying if you don't things exactly right you'll burn or you'll be extinguished eternally. Religious do, that's the difference. Do we think your lives may be better if you let go of some of the ideas you have? Yes. But do we believe God will punish you if you don't? No. Therein lies the separation. I dont use God as a fear tactic either, all religious cant be painted with one brush. So what if atheists dont use God as their fear of choice? ,, its not like there arent atheists guilty of using other fear tactics on people fear of stigmatism, being labeled bigoted, fear of expressing or practicing what is important to them, far of having to 'conform, or be an outcast,fear of impending doom from other humans, fear of political conspiracies, fear of losing 'freedom',,etc,,, Well maybe sometimes you ought to take the criticisms to heart. Instead of looking at it strictly from your particularly colored glasses, maybe look outside it for once. Maybe then you'd understand why we are so vehemantly opposed to what you believe or at the least how you express that. And before you even try to say I should do the same, save it. I did this a long time ago, and it's exactly why I left religion behind, and why others left it as well. Just because you have believed something all your life, doesn't mean it is necessarily true. Assuming in effect you know all there is to know is a really bad assumption. When you stop learning, you stop growing. And religion can stunt one's growth because it discourages any ideas that may go against it, and closes the mind. Having said all that, if you wanna believe something you can, but when you start to judge others in how they are living based on YOUR belief, (ie: Homosexuality), don't be surprised when people are gonna come against you. You cross a line at that point. If it works for you, fine, but just because others subscribe to different beliefs doesn't make them wrong, and doesn't make it right for you to tell them they are wrong just because of what YOU believe. To love is to accept someone as they are, for who they are, not try to mold them into what you want them to be. really? all this is about having an opinion that people are doing the wrong thing? thats human, thats not religious For the record, I dont judge 'people'. I do believe people bake right and wrong choices and I Think anyone that claims they dont believe that as well is lying. Having an opinion is a human rality and a human right and atheists and religious are no less human in that regard. Do you believe it is wrong for an adult male to take a pre pubescent wife? do you have any business saying they are 'wrong', because its what you believe? what makes your belief so much better than anyone elses? ,,,,,,see where Im going,,,? There are things clearly wrong to ALL, regardless of religious background or not. They are universal rights and wrongs. If only YOU have the problem, you may wanna think about why. Check yourself first, if only you have the problem chances are it's your issue NOT theirs. Learn the difference. And please keep the extremes out of this, they have no basis in reality in this discussion. As I said, there are universal right and wrongs, and we ALL know this. its only 'extreme' because it makes too much sense to face it is just as REAL for people to oppose a pubescent girl taken as a wife, as it is for people to oppose same sex sex.... Difference is one is between consenting ADULTS, I'll say it again CONSENTING ADULTS. So trying to compare something involving kids with that?? Yeah that is EXTREME, and has nothing to do with the other. Anyone with half a brain would know that when you bring kids into it, generally speaking that is WRONG. So comparing that to something again between ADULTS has no basis in reality. |
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Kleisto
Joined Tue 05/13/08 Posts: 5166 |
Topic:
Recovery from religion...
QUOTE: Kleisto, back off on msharmony a bit. If she's gonna make ridiculous arguments, I'm gonna call her on them. I don't care who likes it, I'm going to say what I think. |
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Kleisto
Joined Tue 05/13/08 Posts: 5166 |
Topic:
Recovery from religion...
QUOTE: QUOTE: QUOTE: QUOTE: We don't use use God as basically a fear tactic saying if you don't things exactly right you'll burn or you'll be extinguished eternally. Religious do, that's the difference. Do we think your lives may be better if you let go of some of the ideas you have? Yes. But do we believe God will punish you if you don't? No. Therein lies the separation. I dont use God as a fear tactic either, all religious cant be painted with one brush. So what if atheists dont use God as their fear of choice? ,, its not like there arent atheists guilty of using other fear tactics on people fear of stigmatism, being labeled bigoted, fear of expressing or practicing what is important to them, far of having to 'conform, or be an outcast,fear of impending doom from other humans, fear of political conspiracies, fear of losing 'freedom',,etc,,, Well maybe sometimes you ought to take the criticisms to heart. Instead of looking at it strictly from your particularly colored glasses, maybe look outside it for once. Maybe then you'd understand why we are so vehemantly opposed to what you believe or at the least how you express that. And before you even try to say I should do the same, save it. I did this a long time ago, and it's exactly why I left religion behind, and why others left it as well. Just because you have believed something all your life, doesn't mean it is necessarily true. Assuming in effect you know all there is to know is a really bad assumption. When you stop learning, you stop growing. And religion can stunt one's growth because it discourages any ideas that may go against it, and closes the mind. Having said all that, if you wanna believe something you can, but when you start to judge others in how they are living based on YOUR belief, (ie: Homosexuality), don't be surprised when people are gonna come against you. You cross a line at that point. If it works for you, fine, but just because others subscribe to different beliefs doesn't make them wrong, and doesn't make it right for you to tell them they are wrong just because of what YOU believe. To love is to accept someone as they are, for who they are, not try to mold them into what you want them to be. QUOTE: Having said all that, if you wanna believe something you can, but when you start to judge others in how they are living based on YOUR belief, (ie: Homosexuality), don't be surprised when people are gonna come against you. A "Christian" or well a follower of Jesus would not do as you mention. Doesn't matter if the person is Homosexual, bisexual, tall, short, fat, or ugly, we are not to judge another. We are to treat everyone with the same respect, love, caring, ect. There is no "greater then thou art" with a true follower of Jesus. By telling them to deny who they are, you judge them. Can't escape that. |