77Spark - very well written responce. However, look at any society
around you. Find all the resourses that a community claims. Among
these find the clubs, the daycares, the neighborhood bar-b-que, the
networks that keep and maintain a group of poeple as a community. It is
the women behind these that keep you men social. ha! True? Speaking
as a whole, as you are correct to point out that there are always
exceptions, good and bad.

Alex - You have been so privelidged in so many ways, to have been raised
in the times and the family that you were. To have had the intelligence
and the fortitude to follow a life that continues to give you so much
insight. You have an extremely interesting history, and still, in true
womanly fashion, your see a need, you see a reason, you see ability and
bring it all together. NOW THAT'S THE WOMEN I KNOW.

Jess - Your posed some questions. Pretty much, I see why your thoughts
would be in this direction. So let me make a suggestion. I have found
that the closest families are those in which a strong female is heading
that family. Not just parents and children, but a very large extended
family, that includes displaced friends, who have a new home. I also
see this same thing, with the women I know. As many have been displaced
or simply feel out of place, so they 'create' a family of the lost. I
grew up with almost little support system, so becoming part of a family,
well it's wonderful.

So Jess, my suggestion to making this dream more real, is that more
women, from all walks of life, from all over the world, need to create a
family of women - can you imagine what influence we might have?

Red, mind reading again?

And yes, when I stopped and looked at this tiny microcosm of Lee, this
corner of the world...it is exactly that...women working it...walking
it...and supporting, creating a culture.

Working it in local government, in social changes, in domestic areas.
Nurturing, and generating morals, and cultural changes.

And then, as is my way, expanding it...globally, to see if this model is
viable...to look for the pitfalls..the expenses...the collateral damage
so to speak.

And so I ponder...as another idea, another thought, experience, is
shared...I look at it...

have there not been women leaders in the world, in history?

but to stereotype women and all men for that matter, is in itself, a bit
on the combative side too.

who stands behind the men in history, effectively pushing their views
inevitably into the world, thus the old saying ' behind every good man
stands a good women kicking him in the ass' or something like that.

it is almost sounding like women do not have a voice, and you know your
right for the most part (hate to point to the middle east here, but if
the shoe fits...)

i guess my point is simply this- coexist. to think any one ideal is the
right one seems (to me) intolerant of the- just be or alllow, mentality.
have we ALL (women and men alike) made mistakes? are we ALL paying for
them, and learning from them?

we evolve, and we solve, nourishing desire and setting fire to the soul
(and thats not a bad thing)

so to say i speak as a true man- thank you, for me, a compliment, not
derogatory.. i do see your reasoning for thinking the way you are, but
am quite surprised by the intolerant view that you have, that has
stemmed from the aggrivation from all the messes we as humans have been
in.

allow?

Women leaders raised in Patriarchal societies...already discussed back
one page...or maybe two.

Hmmm...not combatative at all..

How to remove weapons? A childs wish offered for granting...trains of
thought evolving...

To look at what is...and has been...then to see the flipside..without
bias..

True men? True women?

hmmm....freed from patriarchal programming?

That is where this train of my thought is flowing...the what ifs...the
is it possible?

And Utopia is what you make it.

the ancients followed the advice given from the ORACLES. females who
could effect an out come just by uttering the words.

women have been worshipped some as goddess' in many societies throughout
history and have given wonderful contributions to the human race.
including men, hahaha.

i will research some more of this on my own and not bore the crowd just
yet.

just wondring if that train already has a car on the track.... will
sleep on it and ponder this train of thought. before sounding like a
sexist (which by the way i dont think i am!)

opens all the doors and windows........... let's the bad air out


damn doc...wash your feet will ya ...lol

Red. correct. i came from a very priviledged backround, wealthy and
powerful and even shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh (corrupt!)

the story should be the next mini series or epic drama...i came to a
very rebellious place with my family. i did not support the racism or
bigotry. nor did i succumb to the buyers at the meat market as they
paraded my butt across the planet in 5 debutante balls!!!!!!!!!!!

i refused to marry my betrothed....and the ones after him...created
scandal after scandal. got arrested all the time for protesting war and
nukes..oh oh oh i was a horror child!!




i did not have their support for alot but i had their reverence as i was
the next Cheikha....anyway the war vanished alot of them ...i havn't
found one near relative alive yet.

as for Oracles .i am an oracle . from a long and strong tradition. so
whatcha gonna say about that doc.......

ask me no questions and i'll tell you no lies

Fanta, your description of Cherokee society made me think of some Muslim
societies that I have lived in. While superficially it seems that men
dominate Muslim cultures (and in the publicly visible roles they do),
there is a pattern of very strong women playing highly influential roles
in the de facto governance of the society. This does not mean that women
as a whole are dominant, but that women as individuals emerge and can
dominate the behind-the-scenes real seats of power.

I first ran into this many years ago in Palestine. Victoria Nasser ran
the West Bank (before the 1967 Israeli invasion) through gentleness,
savvy, a deep understanding of the family structure of the communities,
and an ability to network and align the various parts of the society. I
traveled with her for a few days, jouncing over the tamped rock roads
from village to village, town to town, and she would visit homes,
offices, coffee shops, tea houses, asking questions, thinking, nudging
people to do what was needed. I don't think a man could have come close
to what she routinely achieved.

I have seen this pattern of a strong woman weaving together the
functions of governance in many other countries. In Egypt, I think of
one woman in particular, probably more influential than even the
country's president. In a country where telephone directories are
useless, she had a black book about three inches thick, and as her
chauffeur drove us around she would work that black book like Isaac
Stern his violin. She had agreed to support a project I was working on,
and she accomplished in a few days what had to be done to make that
project a success. I don't think any man could have done it.

There is a wonderful book about the roles of women in a traditional
rural Iraqi village that I would recommend to everyone who is interested
in this: GUESTS OF THE SHEIKH, by Elizabeth Fernea.

Oceans

bl8ant i think that hidden under your cloak of compassion and intellect
is something far different than what you portrait. what fear is it i
wonder are you trying to hide from?

you an oracle, yep and im a soothsayer.

look doc...you have your cultural traditions and i have mine



you wanna be GI joe go ahead.
i have no need to address you. i find you and your points of view
disgusting and pitiuful. and with no strength of character or decency.

i don't want to post to you nor do i want to answer your inane comments,
but if you litter my thread, well just no tellin ...

your attitude insults everything i know and feel about respect for life.

even your own lack of respect for your own health and well being ...how
can you be intrustedto care for anyone's healty when you abuse your own?

intrusted to care for anyone's health when you do not take care of your
own

my health is just fine, but thanks for the pretend compassion.

disgusting and vile?

lady you make my stomach turn. it is a shame that you infect the minds
of those around you. how do you pretend to care when all you would have
is the death of america and americans? your precious lebanon (that you
dont even live in)- yeah you can have that.

but hey i'll let you have the last word on the subject, you bring down
the positive vibes with your dark intolerance of life, bad mojo chick-
but hey kharma is what it is.


people its been fun, but im so done with racist biggets who pretend to
be intellects, some of you are profound, the rest wish you were.

beotch


gi joe, sure yeah i'll do that, and just some info there bl8ant, 7.62
goes thru kevlar. you being shot in the middle of a barin vile place,
ribs broken? and all that you sid about it, doesnt pass the real world
shlt smell test- seen plenty, hey just call them like i see them, you
can fool some people sometimes, but not all of them all the time.

peace may it always be like a crowd of monkeys crawling out your ass. 70
virgins and all, im outta here.

Oceans said...

"I first ran into this many years ago in Palestine. Victoria Nasser ran
the West Bank (before the 1967 Israeli invasion) through gentleness,
savvy, a deep understanding of the family structure of the communities,
and an ability to network and align the various parts of the society. I
traveled with her for a few days, jouncing over the tamped rock roads
from village to village, town to town, and she would visit homes,
offices, coffee shops, tea houses, asking questions, thinking, nudging
people to do what was needed. I don't think a man could have come close
to what she routinely achieved."

**************************************************
Thankyou for the entirety of your post, Oceans...

This section caught my eye..

especially these words.. "an ability to network and align the various
parts of the society"


Creating, generating doing it...with intelligence, and perhaps an
intuitive understanding of the communities?

A respect for them?

And their intrinsic differences?

I see this here..amongst many women, within both my little slice of
society, and also, in the privileged time I spent with Indigenous women.

Invited to participate in their learnings, their 'doings'...taught as a
child is, with their letters...gently...and always explained to me...the
whole action...and consequences..

The vision of these women astounded me...always looking ahead...always
working towards a higher harmony.

And at times it felt like Oracles...seers...their intuitive
knowledge..and their deep compassion, and preservation of their
community, and beliefs.

I keep coming back to the Indigenous culture, as it is my reference
point, a culture I was invited to experience first hand...and also an
ancient culture.

There is no allowance...none...poison...pure and obvious...toxic and
tasteless.

Wasted..and disappointed...


"People always show themselves in the end"

do we have a bye bye emoticon yet??


whatever doc...you have no idea what guns were used in the scenario when
i got shot so i guess you're talkin out your ass again!

Hi Red,

There is truth in your words but we men folk or at least I am very
careful to not place women's roles and attributes into stereotypes or
categories lest I be burned at the stake. Even so, the examples you
listed are valid and one could argue and win a debate that women are by
nature better at nurturing and keeping a community together. From my
own experiance of the women in my life, they have kept me more social
than I would normally be.

Having said that, I personally feel the different sexes should and in
most cases do compliment each other. I also believe under no
circumstances should one sex hold dominion over the other and that one
sex is no more qualified than the other to lead this or any other
country.

Anyway, it's nice to have a discussion rather than an arguement. I look
forward to seeing you in the threads.

i think wonderful perspectives are forming and being shared in this
thread, and only those that are already familiar with weapons seem to be
the ones that are quick to use them


the weapons of words and judgements and the damage they do.


doc. take a census...get a grip. when the class fails you look at the
teacher

when it's just one or 2 kids you support the student.

the polls on credibility here were never in question till you attacked
with them.
i am sure many people who have read your posts and felt your pain will
agree you are really suffering. mentally emotionally physically and
spiritually.

no one will agree with you that i want all americans dead or america
destroyed. will ya listen to yourself?

no one is actually against you..only we are very frustrated with the
grip you have on your belief system..that is slowly burning the
beautiful man within you away.

you have PTSD. doc. you are bound to hold tightly to your ideals
...otherwise all you have lost would be for nothing!!

and you have lost alot. so i understand that you need to make it
worthwhile.

like a gambler who has just lost the deed ...keeps playing rather than
cut losses that big...

i wear kevlar for a living lady, not hte cheap after market stuff, only
the best right?

any center fire round will go hru it, ANY no matter what size it is.

knowing the terrain and the weaponary in the area, it was either a 9mm
or a centerfire. this is my job, not talking out of my ass.

but i will call a liar a liar.

here is your bye bye!

you and your little kookys have a nice existance. killing america.

whatever

So how to weave the qualities of each gender?

How to find some middle ground?

Patriarchal/Matriarchal?

Will that remove weapons?

Will that be a way of changing the dynamics of these evolving societies?


I see this gun...and then poof !!! Gone..and all the implications...or
as many as my mind will allow.

I do not look for blame within gender...I look for ways of changing
that, that already is...and all the implications of it..

To understand..and to develop methods...to create realities..