we are not saved by our ACTIONS. only by grace through faith.

there is no deed or series of deeds, only belief/obedience and unbelief/disobedience

The second element of confusion pertains to the idea that thought, word, and deed have nothing to do with salvation which is achieved merely through faith alone.

If this were the case there would be absolutely no need for divine commands, or doctrine that directs behavior toward specific morality. Also in question is the idea that the holy spirit only aids those who believe first, because only those who believe would recognize its influence on behavior. So the FIRST deed is to make some effort to gain information about the available choices for a religious belief system. The second deed is pay attention to the Holy Spirit for guidance. But guidance for what? You already believe at that point.

I have to admit, like others, I’m confused about some Christian views pertaining to free will and how this relates to concepts of salvation.

Many Christians use the term ‘free will’ as a God-given birthright that allows us to analyze situations in our life and ‘freely’ determine the course of our own actions.

According to one Christian view, free-will was given us because it was necessary that humans freely choose to believe in God and Jesus.

That Christian view of free-will seems to hold the belief that individuals can always choose their own course of action, regardless of doctrinal beliefs including ‘divine command’ and moral mandates.

This free-will idea seems necessary in order to prove that their beliefs were of their own choosing and not influenced by the ideologies of others.

Now we introduce the concept of salvation which is a common component in Christian views of Jesus as ‘Christ’ (savior).

Some beliefs associated with Jesus as savior can be best shown through the quotes of one poster from another thread.





The reward of being saved is eternal life without worry, strife, sickness, or any other conflicts.
The way to gain this reward is through faith – ‘choosing’ to believe in God and that salvation only comes through faith in Jesus as the savior

The first element of confusion between free will and the road to salvation has to do with ‘thought, word, & deed’. The individual must FIRST DO SOMETHING before Jesus or God would even consider that individual a possible candidate for eternal salvation.

That something is a free-will choice; to believe in the Christian concepts of God & Jesus as savior.

Now we have to form some connections at this point. If God created humans with the highest order of brain function, AND granted free will to ‘act’ out of choice, then we might assume that our actions should be guided by intellect & logic followed by rational conclusions.

So it seems to me that information is a necessary part of making free-will choices. I don’t find this to be true of Christians who seek to persuade others that their beliefs are the RIGHT choice. In fact the only choice offered, by some Christians, is limited to two things; believe as I do and live eternally or --- suffer some kind of severe consequence.

That action seems to equate to purposely limiting the ‘free-will’ choice of others, especially when there are so many options to choose from. If free will is so important to this decision, I would think that the proper Christian view would be to offer as much information about all options as possible to those who don’t know what other choices are available. In this way, the choice would truly be a free will decision.

The second element of confusion pertains to the idea that thought, word, and deed have nothing to do with salvation which is achieved merely through faith alone.

If this were the case there would be absolutely no need for divine commands, or doctrine that directs behavior toward specific morality. Also in question is the idea that the holy spirit only aids those who believe first, because only those who believe would recognize its influence on behavior. So the FIRST deed is to make some effort to gain information about the available choices for a religious belief system. The second deed is pay attention to the Holy Spirit for guidance. But guidance for what? You already believe at that point.

That leaves only one option available for people to choose belief in God & Jesus - through the testimony of other humans.

Testimony in this case is conflicting and even the bible is silent when it comes to applying moral lessons to current day situations, so all doctrine must be considered suspect of being tainted (in the least) by human influence or at worst being totally contrived. Again, information about all those choices is withheld by those attempting to persuade others to a particular doctrine.

Finally the ideas of “free-will”, combined with “thought, word & deed” seem to conflict with “salvation”.

One of the greatest questions to puzzle Christians has been “What about the salvation of unbelievers?”
The bible is unclear when it comes to this question except to fundamentalists. Fundamentalists believe that every verse in the bible is whole, complete, true, and without error. They have chosen very specific phrases from the bible and determined that NO HUMAN (in human history) is saved without belief. And that only faith is required for salvation.

Surely, throughout human history there have been non-Christians who have attained the moral equivalency of Gods’ standards without holding a belief in the God of Abraham or in Jesus – because not even the torah is old enough for humans to have included some kind of believe in a Christ as a savior.

Again there is conflict in the assumption that salvation is “through faith alone.” Then what is the purpose of the bible and all its stories directed toward actions of thought, word, and deed? What is the purpose of divine command, or any religious doctrine?

It seems to me that the only purpose of Christians to align with any particular doctrine, is to point a finger to themselves as the only true faithful clan of humans worthy of salvation. As if their God would somehow not know who was worthy.

Perhaps it would be better if people did not feel a need to conform to any particular doctrine. In fact it would seem a wiser choice to make simple proclamations of faith and allow ones’ self the opportunity to pursue information through their life-time of experiences. In this way people are more flexible to change, more tolerant of others, and able to determine their own code of ethics.

We have a brain, we have free will, and we have unknown experiences through which to gain undiscovered knowledge. If we commit to extreme beliefs with rigid and illogical doctrinal directives, we create a self-imposed limitation on our own free will in addition to the limitations we accept in order to form civil societies with respect to human rights.

Other views or Christian clarification of the views presented?

All free will is, is giving us the choice on things we do through our lives. We're not "robots" or "puppets". We do as we please to do. But there is reaction to every action. Do the actions *deeds* of our father the reaction will be the gift of heaven. Do the actions *deeds* not of our father, the reaction is not receiving such a gift.

And with us having free will, people tend to do what looks best. Usually derived from a self analyse. Not usually what looks best for the rest of the population. People tend to get greedy for instance. This can be seen greatly in people stealing things. Stealing something is derived from greed. They want that object, and will get it at all costs. Thus they steal it. They then have that sin with them. Sin is like a disease. It stays till it's taken care of. Weather that's just with you, or continues to your children, ect.

To get rid of that sin we are to ask God for forgiveness. But would it not be in vein if you don't show that you truly are sorry and or remorseful for doing such an action? Yes it would be, therefore we sacrificed something to have been forgiven of the sin. Well as the world's population grew large, there needed to be a different way to have been forgiven for our sins. For that would be alot of sacrifices done every day with the large population of the world now. So therefore Jesus chose to be our sacrifice for us. So that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life.

According to your reply, you believe that behavior can affect salvation. In other words, it is not enough to believe in God and that Jesus is the only path to salvation becasue our behavior (deeds) can work against salavation. Is that correct?

Yes sin is what separates us from our father. But works alone can not save a soul. Just actions show what's on the inside. And Jesus offers forgiveness for mistakes.

Jesus is the light and path to our father, but just because you believe on Jesus does not mean you can go killing, then ask for forgiveness, go steal, then ask for forgiveness, beat the crap out of someone then ask for forgiveness, kill someone again and ask for forgiveness ect ect.

Works alone will not save a person nor faith alone.

I think a better title for this post would be "differences between being spiritual and being Christian.


Christianity isn't as black and white and absolute as you often claim.There are many forms of Christianity with different ways of worshiping.Catholics have a entirely different way of worshiping then do the Mormons.According to the World Christian Encyclopedia (year 2000 version), global Christianity had 33,820 denominations with 3,445,000 congregations.

So if you are looking for a specific way to look at Christianity you have 33,820 different view points on how to worship God and Jesus and what kind of life to live.Of course all these viewpoints all Holy bible based with Jesus Christ as their savior.

Good deeds does not get a person anything in this life or the next no matter what you are doing.Good deeds are good for the community and your neighbors like you but God does not reward a non believer the same as he does one of his believers.Even so called Christians who claim they are a Christians yet do everything the bible tells them not to do are in danger or serious judgment from God and will be punished in many cases worse than a non believer since Christians know they are disobeying Gods word.


Matthew 7:21-23

21 Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord," shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?"
23 And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness."


I think it is also important to remember for Christians your actions will get you punishment and rewards through your actions.I firmly believe those who live by the bible and follow God's words have a much easier and longer life in general than those who do not.


As far as what happens to the non believers despite how good they are.The bible is pretty clear that non believers will be cast into Hell when they die.People often think this idea is flawed and many believe they are going to heaven anyways but this is a lie and there is only one way out of Hell and that is through the belief in Jesus Christ.

When people have problems with this logic.I tell them,"what if all the Christians were wrong and Islam was the true religion.If you died and went to their heaven would you say you deserved the same eternal life and rewards as Muslims even though you haven't done anything at all including reading a single page from their bible"?Seems pretty stupid doesn't it?It's the same logic with Christianity.Why should a Athiest get the same rewards as a Christian who has spent his or her whole going to church,following the bible,and doing what God has commanded?


Christians will be held accountable for their actions,lies,blasphemies,and many other things when they are judged before God.

1 Corinthians 3 says it best...

10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

16 Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in your midst? 17 If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy that person; for God’s temple is sacred, and you together are that temple.

18 Do not deceive yourselves. If any of you think you are wise by the standards of this age, you should become “fools” so that you may become wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God’s sight. As it is written: “He catches the wise in their craftiness”[a]; 20 and again, “The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile.” 21 So then, no more boasting about human leaders! All things are yours, 22 whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas[c] or the world or life or death or the present or the future—all are yours, 23 and you are of Christ, and Christ is of God.


Matthew 16:26-27
"For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works."

Revelation 22:11-12
"He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be."

uke 21:1-4
"And he looked up, and saw the rich men casting their gifts into the treasury.

And he saw also a certain poor widow casting in thither two mites.

And he said, Of a truth I say unto you, that this poor widow hath cast in more than they all:

For all these have of their abundance cast in unto the offerings of God: but she of her penury hath cast in all the living that she had."

Thomas wrote:

As far as what happens to the non believers despite how good they are.The bible is pretty clear that non believers will be cast into Hell when they die.People often think this idea is flawed and many believe they are going to heaven anyways but this is a lie and there is only one way out of Hell and that is through the belief in Jesus Christ.

When people have problems with this logic.I tell them,"what if all the Christians were wrong and Islam was the true religion.If you died and went to their heaven would you say you deserved the same eternal life and rewards as Muslims even though you haven't done anything at all including reading a single page from their bible"? Seems pretty stupid doesn't it? It's the same logic with Christianity.Why should a Athiest get the same rewards as a Christian who has spent his or her whole going to church,following the bible,and doing what God has commanded?

Well, of course your example seems pretty stupid. You're comparing an Abrahamic religion with another Abrahamic religion.

Both of these religions are based on the idea of a jealous Godhead who holds out a carrot of everlasting life in his heavenly kingdom versus suffering the fate of the eternal punishment of his wrath.

So to even bother comparing Christianity to something like Islam is ridiculous. They are both absurd folklore based on the same type of egotistical jealous Zeus-like Godhead.

Compare it with something like the karma system of Eastern Mysticism and there's no comparison at all. People who are righteous receive righteous rewards, and people who are unrighteous suffer the consequences of their own unrighteous choices. What 'religion' people believe in is utterly irrelevant. In fact, in Eastern Mysticism it's not even important to believe in a "God" at all. Your fate is directly tied to your actions, period.

And that is truly the only righteous and just system if you stop and think about it. It's the most just, and the therefore the most divine.

Why should a God who supposedly cares about "righteousness" truly care about anything beyond that?

To worry about what 'religion' people believe in would be truly petty and unnecessary. It would serve NO PURPOSE at all.

I have to admit, like others, I’m confused about some Christian views pertaining to free will and how this relates to concepts of salvation. presented?

If one tethers a baby elephant to a stake and gives it a limited radius of choice of movement, even when it grows to be one of the most powerful animals on the planet, it will remember and takes it on faith that that limited range=its range of choice of movement.

The religious fundamentalist's concept of Free Will is a lot like that. It makes its adherents think that they can choose not to die by never testing testing the limits of that spiritual tether. Everything becomes a black & white choice based on faith in something that can't be proven or tested by inspection.

But, since it would NOT do to have elephants roaming free, those who choose another way, i.e. to live in the wild, they must therefor canonize domestication. Those who don't make such a choice to be domesticated are like the stray and vagrant deer of the field. They have to be scared into submission by something like Satan, the great hunter of stray and vagrant souls.

It never EVER occurs to them that one doesn't HAVE to choose domestication freed from a life of strife and danger over being a food animal in the wild. It only peripherally occurs to herd animals that by Freethought, one can be a powerful spiritual omnivore in one's own intellectual right.

-Kerry O.

Cowboy wrote:

God is our father and we his children. If your children disowned you and or claimed so and so was their father, would you still support them, take care of them, and give them what they want?

And Christianity is put in the "religion" bracket for secular minded people and people of other wishes. It's not about what "religion" we believe in. It's about following what our father has set out before us or not. And again yes you'll try to say he isn't the father, and again I ask you if your child claimed that you were not his parent would you continue to supply him with everything he needed?

You constant comparisons between the biblical God and a human parent will always fail and is utterly absurd.

First off, people of other religions such as Eastern Mysticism aren't rejecting God at all. On the contrary they are worshiping the creator of this universe. If your God is the creator of this universe then they most certain are worshiping your God. On other the other hand, if your God is a false idol then of course they aren't going to acknowledge him.

Also why should anyone believe that an ancient male-chauvinistic bigoted Hebrew society speaks for "God"?

There's absolutely no good reason to believe in the fables of that culture. To reject the fables of that ancient culture cannot possibly be considered the same as rejecting "God". That's absurd.

If you want to compare this with a human father, then suppose you were the TRUE father of your children, but for some reason you were unable to be with them. So a bunch of ignorant male-chauvinistic bigoted pigs came along and tried to convince your children that they speak for you, and your children refused to believe them, and rejected their claims that you are a big ignorant jerk like them.

Wouldn't you just be filled with pride in your children for not having fallen for such ignorant crap?

I most certainly WOULD BE! I would be extremely proud of my children!

So your lame comparisons with human parents never works. You're just ASSUMING that the ancient Hebrews speak for God. But for all you know, you could be the one who is letting down your father by believing that he's an egoistical male-chauvinistic pig.

You don't even have enough FAITH in your father to reject hearsay rumors about him.

I trust that both, my heavenly Father and my heavenly Mother, are far above the crap that the ancient Hebrews made up, and I'm sure that both my Father and my Mother are extremely proud of me for not buying into such ignorant religious male-chauvinistic bigotry.

How dare YOU insinuate that our heavenly creator is as ignorant as those stupid male-chauvinistic Hebrews were.

That's just an insult to the creator of this universe, IMHO.

In fact, it's an insult to humanity as well.

You constant comparisons between the biblical God and a human parent will always fail and is utterly absurd.

First off, people of other religions such as Eastern Mysticism aren't rejecting God at all. On the contrary they are worshiping the creator of this universe. If your God is the creator of this universe then they most certain are worshiping your God. On other the other hand, if your God is a false idol then of course they aren't going to acknowledge him.

Also why should anyone believe that an ancient male-chauvinistic bigoted Hebrew society speaks for "God"?

There's absolutely no good reason to believe in the fables of that culture. To reject the fables of that ancient culture cannot possibly be considered the same as rejecting "God". That's absurd.

If you want to compare this with a human father, then suppose you were the TRUE father of your children, but for some reason you were unable to be with them. So a bunch of ignorant male-chauvinistic bigoted pigs came along and tried to convince your children that they speak for you, and your children refused to believe them, and rejected their claims that you are a big ignorant jerk like them.

Wouldn't you just be filled with pride in your children for not having fallen for such ignorant crap?

I most certainly WOULD BE! I would be extremely proud of my children!

So your lame comparisons with human parents never works. You're just ASSUMING that the ancient Hebrews speak for God. But for all you know, you could be the one who is letting down your father by believing that he's an egoistical male-chauvinistic pig.

You don't even have enough FAITH in your father to reject hearsay rumors about him.

I trust that both, my heavenly Father and my heavenly Mother, are far above the crap that the ancient Hebrews made up, and I'm sure that both my Father and my Mother are extremely proud of me for not buying into such ignorant religious male-chauvinistic bigotry.

How dare YOU insinuate that our heavenly creator is as ignorant as those stupid male-chauvinistic Hebrews were.

That's just an insult to the creator of this universe, IMHO.

In fact, it's an insult to humanity as well.

It is absolutely nothing like that. We do have free will on which we will be judged on how we used that free will. We are not tethered, we can go do anything we wish. It's about what are you willing to do. We willingly turn away from sinful actions. We are not "forced" or anything of such. We willingly turn away as to be obedient to what our father wishes.

Cowboy wrote:

I insult no belief of you or anyone else. Why do you ramble mindlessly and insulting towards Christianity? And no i do not "assume" the Hebrews speak for God. The Hebrews do not speak for God. Our father has informed us directly, just we were not there so then the message is needed to be carried on. And it just so happened to be in that area this took place. God speaks to us in this day and age as well. Just alot of people do not listen and refuse to listen just as you.

And yes our father to us is in great comparison to us to our kids. Our father takes care of us and provides for us just as we provide for our kids in our lives. Our father disciplines us just as we discipline our kids through our lives. Our father has taught us just as we teach our children through our lives.

How does the comparison not work if i may ask?

Have you paid attention to the Biblical stories at all?

The Israelites were God's "choosen" people. It's all about Israel being a choose nation. It's all about Jerusalem. In Revelations John speaks of Jerusalem being adorned as a bride for the groom Jesus to remarry upon his return.

It was not ACCIDENT that this mythology happens to favor the Israelites. THEY are the one's who made this crap UP!

No, these stories do not in any way indicate that this is some cosmic creator's message to "all of mankind". Not at all.

This is an extremely cultural-specific mythology.



You can compare a "God" in general with a 'father' of humanity. But your constant DEMAND that these ancient Hebrew fables speak for that father, or that Jesus was the demigod of that father have no grounds.

In other words, to suggest that because someone rejects the Hebrew fables they are also 'rejecting God' is utterly absurd.

And that's where you constant comparison of children "rejecting" their parents breaks down.

I GAVE you a perfect example of precisely how a belief in the Christian Bible itself could ultimately be a 'rejection' of your TRUE parent (or God).

You've chosen to worship religious bigotry of a specific culture and their demigod as an idol, rather than acknowledge the cosmic spirit of all humankind. So in that sense you could very well be rejecting YOUR true "Father" by worshiping an idol religion instead.

Have you paid attention to the Biblical stories at all?

The Israelites were God's "choosen" people. It's all about Israel being a choose nation. It's all about Jerusalem. In Revelations John speaks of Jerusalem being adorned as a bride for the groom Jesus to remarry upon his return.

It was not ACCIDENT that this mythology happens to favor the Israelites. THEY are the one's who made this crap UP!

No, these stories do not in any way indicate that this is some cosmic creator's message to "all of mankind". Not at all.

This is an extremely cultural-specific mythology.



You can compare a "God" in general with a 'father' of humanity. But your constant DEMAND that these ancient Hebrew fables speak for that father, or that Jesus was the demigod of that father have no grounds.

In other words, to suggest that because someone rejects the Hebrew fables they are also 'rejecting God' is utterly absurd.

And that's where you constant comparison of children "rejecting" their parents breaks down.

I GAVE you a perfect example of precisely how a belief in the Christian Bible itself could ultimately be a 'rejection' of your TRUE parent (or God).

You've chosen to worship religious bigotry of a specific culture and their demigod as an idol, rather than acknowledge the cosmic spirit of all humankind. So in that sense you could very well be rejecting YOUR true "Father" by worshiping an idol religion instead.