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| Topic: US, Israel downplayed Palestinians' upgraded status @ UN | |
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Edited by
CeriseRose
on
Sat 12/01/12 06:16 AM
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US, Israel isolated in condemning Palestine vote
By Daniel Woolls (AFP) 1 day ago WASHINGTON — The United States and Israel downplayed Thursday the Palestinians' new upgraded status at the UN, saying it changed nothing in actual practice and even made peace with the Jewish state a remoter prospect. Palestinians rejoiced at the historic albeit largely symbolic vote at the UN General Assembly in New York, firing guns into the air in Ramallah in the occupied West Bank, shooting off fireworks and embracing each other with glee. In between the two ends of the spectrum were major powers like Britain, which said it respected the vote but abstained on the grounds that the Palestinians had not unconditionally agreed to negotiations on a lasting two-state deal with Israel. Britain pledged support for efforts to reach an elusive peace accord, as did France, which voted for the resolution but called on Israel and the Palestinians to resume peace talks without conditions and as soon as possible. The Vatican welcomed the 138-9 vote, saying it reflected the majority sentiment of the international community and the Holy See had long encouraged more global involvement to resolve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. "Peace needs courageous decisions," it said in a statement. But top US diplomats warned the Palestinians that they had essentially achieved nothing, while Israel sounded as angry as the Palestinians did joyful. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's office said Palestinian president Mahmud Abbas's speech before the General Assembly ahead of the vote on the status upgrade was "defamatory and venomous." "The world watched a defamatory and venomous speech that was full of mendacious propaganda against the IDF (army) and the citizens of Israel," the statement said. The American ambassador to the United Nations, Susan Rice, said the Palestinians' joy would be short-lived. "Today's grand announcements will soon fade and the Palestinian people will wake up tomorrow to find little of their lives has changed, save (that) the prospects of a durable peace have receded," she said. "This resolution does not establish that Palestine is a state," she said, echoing an earlier speech by the ambassador to Israel. "Today's vote should not be misconstrued by any as constituting eligibility for UN membership." Rice said that "only through direct negotiations between the parties can the Palestinians and the Israelis achieve the peace that both deserve." Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, speaking in Washington, used exactly the same language to denounce a decision that she said "places further obstacles in the path to peace." The United States and Israel were among just nine countries bucking global support for a resolution giving Palestine non-member status at the United Nations. Speaking prior to the vote, Netanyahu said in Jerusalem: "The decision at the United Nations today won't change anything on the ground." He added, "It won't promote the establishment of a Palestinian state; it will distance it. "Israel's hand is always extended in peace, but a Palestinian state will not be established without (a Palestinian) recognition of the State of Israel as the Jewish people's state," Netanyahu said. Among the allies of Israel and the United States was Canada, whose foreign minister John Baird said giving Palestine non-member observer status, a step on the path to full UN membership, "undermines the core" of attempts to broker a Palestinian-Israeli peace deal. But nothing would spoil the Palestinians' big day. The hardline Hamas movement, which had opposed its rival Abbas's drive for the status change on grounds it was unilateral and not a product of consensus, welcomed the vote as a victory. And while some in Ramallah recognized it was a half-triumph, they savored it nonetheless. "I'm happy they declared the state even though it's only a moral victory. There are a lot of sharks out there, but it feels good," 39-year-old Rashid al-Kor told AFP. Ethar al-Asmar, a teacher, was pragmatic about the approval. "Israel isn't going anywhere," she admitted. But, she said, the moment felt historic nonetheless. "We have been waiting for this for so long. I never thought this day would come." Copyright © 2012 AFP. All rights reserved. More » http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5j9rJzSelg-09rfSZUNz9eyTUWd2A?docId=CNG.8bd6ab7ecb8bf4df76476d42d50048b7.fa1 |
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The US has criticised Israel's decision to authorise the construction of 3,000 more housingunits in occupied East Jerusalem and the West Bank.
Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said that "these activities set back the cause of a negotiated peace". The White House had earlier described the proposal as"counter-productive". |
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Edited by
s1owhand
on
Sat 12/01/12 06:31 AM
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 The Palestinians already had status as an observer entity and now they have status as an observer state. They have no defined borders and refuse to accept the existence of their neighbor. They do not have a functional government but rather warring factions and they initiate and support and condone war crime attacks on civilians. Not much of a state. But now they have the word state next to their status at the UN. It is ridiculous for the UN to declare them a state on the basis of the current situation but there is a lot of ridiculous stuff coming out of the UN which is equally useless. So whatever. |
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They have no defined borders Israel has never defined its borders, so how could Palestine possibly define theirs? They do not have a functional government but rather warring factions and they initiate and support and condone war crime attacks on civilians. The same could be said of the Knesset, but that's democracy for you. Not much of a state. But now they have the word state next to their status at the UN. yup...Statehood was pretty important to Israel too if I recall. It is ridiculous for the UN to declare them a state on the basis of the current situation Why; because Israel didn't like it? |
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They have no defined borders Israel has never defined its borders, so how could Palestine possibly define theirs? They do not have a functional government but rather warring factions and they initiate and support and condone war crime attacks on civilians. The same could be said of the Knesset, but that's democracy for you. Not much of a state. But now they have the word state next to their status at the UN. yup...Statehood was pretty important to Israel too if I recall. It is ridiculous for the UN to declare them a state on the basis of the current situation Why; because Israel didn't like it?  With all the Oslo-Agreements just pssed on by Abbas!
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It's going to get really interesting now! I'll say. Israel seems determined to build yet more illegal settlements in what is now an internationally recognized state (that will probably be signing on to the ICC soon). Think Israel can justify the settlements in court? |
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It's going to get really interesting now! I'll say. Israel seems determined to build yet more illegal settlements in what is now an internationally recognized state (that will probably be signing on to the ICC soon). Think Israel can justify the settlements in court? Illegal settlements? What Law says the settlements are illegal? |
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It's going to get really interesting now! I'll say. Israel seems determined to build yet more illegal settlements in what is now an internationally recognized state (that will probably be signing on to the ICC soon). Think Israel can justify the settlements in court? Israel is veering dangerously close to N.Korea/Iran pariah state status IMO... Their unilateral actions on illegal settlements just shows how they have been operating for decades now. With impunity! When the world says No.... WE MEAN NO!!!! |
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Edited by
s1owhand
on
Sat 12/01/12 10:27 AM
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It's going to get really interesting now! I'll say. Israel seems determined to build yet more illegal settlements in what is now an internationally recognized state (that will probably be signing on to the ICC soon). Think Israel can justify the settlements in court? Except there are no internationally recognized borders. Israel does not answer to the ICC especially if it pursues one sided anti-Israel actions by the ICC will only further delegitimize the ICC. |
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It's going to get really interesting now! I'll say. Israel seems determined to build yet more illegal settlements in what is now an internationally recognized state (that will probably be signing on to the ICC soon). Think Israel can justify the settlements in court? Except there are no internationally recognized borders. Israel does not answer to the ICC especially if it pursues one sided anti-Israel actions. Israel will only further delegitimize itself. Fixed it for you....  No internationally recognized borders?
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It's going to get really interesting now! I'll say. Israel seems determined to build yet more illegal settlements in what is now an internationally recognized state (that will probably be signing on to the ICC soon). Think Israel can justify the settlements in court? |
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They have no defined borders Israel has never defined its borders, so how could Palestine possibly define theirs? They do not have a functional government but rather warring factions and they initiate and support and condone war crime attacks on civilians. The same could be said of the Knesset, but that's democracy for you. Not much of a state. But now they have the word state next to their status at the UN. yup...Statehood was pretty important to Israel too if I recall. It is ridiculous for the UN to declare them a state on the basis of the current situation Why; because Israel didn't like it? 1. It is ridiculous to declare the Palestinians a state with no government, no land and whose main function is to create war crime attacks on Israel. 2. Yes, statehood is important to Israel. They have a real government, real lands and a functional democratic society which respects peaceful neighbors and does not engage in trying to kill innocent people. 3. Parts of the Knesset are not at war with other parts of the Knesset. Terrorists are not part of the Israeli government. Terrorist actions are not condoned in any way by Israel and if any crimes occur they are prosecuted. Not celebrated.  4. Israel has had defined borders. There are also defined borders where the Palestinians are in charge of the governmental affairs. The status of the Israeli borders has been in flux over the years due solely to attacks on Israel from their Arab neighbors who did not respect any of Israel's borders. There has never been a conclusion to the last set of conflicts or agreement on how the Palestinian people will agree to live peacefully alongside Israel. That is why there is no border to the Palestinian entity. Israel insists that any border which arises out of the last series of conflicts be one which is easy to defend on the basis of the many attacks they have endured over the years from their neighbors on the basis of religious hatred. Israel insists that they have confidence building measures and that any state created by the Palestinians recognize Israel's permanent right to exist as a Jewish state. But Palestinians refuse to accept Israel. That's where we stand and no matter what they call it at the UN there can be no resolution to this conflict and no resolution to the nebulous status of the Palestinians until they do in fact accept Israel and agree to peaceful coexistence and recognize Israel's legitimate need for security based on the history of heinous attacks. |
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http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=191760
Does the PA fulfill the criteria for an independent state? By DAN IZENBERG LAST UPDATED: 10/18/2010 02:06 Analysis: Nothing in int’l law prevents PA from declaring independence, but it is unclear whether other countries would recognize sovereignty. According to the 1933 Montevideo Convention on the Rights and Duties of States, which is now part of customary law and therefore binding on all countries, a state must possess a permanent population, a defined territory, a government and a capacity to enter into relationships with other states. Furthermore, the convention states that “the political existence of the state is independent of recognition by other states.” RELATED: Palestinians may ask UN to recognize state in '67 borders Abbas: What Israel calls itself is none of our business Thus, there is nothing in international law to prevent the Palestinian Authority from unilaterally declaring itself an independent state. The question is whether other states will recognize it as such. In theory, states will only recognize a Palestinian state if it fulfills the criteria set down in the Montevideo Convention. According to Dore Gold, a former Israeli ambassador to the UN and current head of the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs, states will, at least in theory, have difficulty recognizing a Palestinian state because it does not meet key criteria of the convention. For example, the Palestinians themselves are in disagreement over what the territory of Palestine should be. Palestinian leaders have mentioned many possibilities, including the 1947 partition plan dividing the Land of Israel into a Jewish and an Arab state, the 1949 armistice lines at the end of the War of Independence, and others. Secondly, the PA does not effectively govern many of the Palestinian parts of the West Bank because according to the Oslo Accords, it shares many responsibilities with Israel. Furthermore, it has no control over Gaza. Another problem is that according to the Oslo Accords, an international agreement that is still binding, the Palestinian Authority is prohibited from conducting its own foreign policy. Be that as it may, the more than 200 sovereign states of the world will largely decide whether or not to recognize a Palestinian state on the basis of their individual national interests and ideological outlook. Israel will not be able to do much, if anything, to prevent other states from recognizing a Palestinian state. Gold told The Jerusalem Post that the Palestinians have another option, at least in theory. The Security Council is the UN organ that admits states to the organization. The council could pass a resolution declaring that a Palestinian state exists and that member states of the UN should recognize it on a bilateral basis. The chances of this happening, however, are questionable, since each of the five permanent members of the Security Council, the US, Britain, France, Russia and China, have veto power over all resolutions presented to the body. Russia and China might be concerned with the precedent the Palestinian move would have for Chechnya or Tibet. For that reason, neither recognized Kosovo in 2008. The resolutions of the UN General Assembly, a body that is overwhelmingly friendly to the Palestinian Authority, are nonbinding and have less impact. However, such a move might prepare the groundwork for the presentation of a similar resolution in the Security Council. According to Gold, the biggest problem facing the PA in unilaterally declaring an independent state is the commitment it made in the 1995 Interim Agreement, Article 31, Paragraph 7, which says, “Neither side shall initiate or take any step that will change the status of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip pending the outcome of the permanent status negotiations. |
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Dumbest thing the PA ever did,Killing the Oslo Accords!
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http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=191760 Does the PA fulfill the criteria for an independent state? By DAN IZENBERG LAST UPDATED: 10/18/2010 02:06 Analysis: Nothing in int’l law prevents PA from declaring independence, but it is unclear whether other countries would recognize sovereignty. According to the 1933 Montevideo Convention on the Rights and Duties of States, which is now part of customary law and therefore binding on all countries, a state must possess a permanent population, a defined territory, a government and a capacity to enter into relationships with other states. Furthermore, the convention states that “the political existence of the state is independent of recognition by other states.” RELATED: Palestinians may ask UN to recognize state in '67 borders Abbas: What Israel calls itself is none of our business Thus, there is nothing in international law to prevent the Palestinian Authority from unilaterally declaring itself an independent state. The question is whether other states will recognize it as such. In theory, states will only recognize a Palestinian state if it fulfills the criteria set down in the Montevideo Convention. According to Dore Gold, a former Israeli ambassador to the UN and current head of the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs, states will, at least in theory, have difficulty recognizing a Palestinian state because it does not meet key criteria of the convention. For example, the Palestinians themselves are in disagreement over what the territory of Palestine should be. Palestinian leaders have mentioned many possibilities, including the 1947 partition plan dividing the Land of Israel into a Jewish and an Arab state, the 1949 armistice lines at the end of the War of Independence, and others. Secondly, the PA does not effectively govern many of the Palestinian parts of the West Bank because according to the Oslo Accords, it shares many responsibilities with Israel. Furthermore, it has no control over Gaza. Another problem is that according to the Oslo Accords, an international agreement that is still binding, the Palestinian Authority is prohibited from conducting its own foreign policy. Be that as it may, the more than 200 sovereign states of the world will largely decide whether or not to recognize a Palestinian state on the basis of their individual national interests and ideological outlook. Israel will not be able to do much, if anything, to prevent other states from recognizing a Palestinian state. Gold told The Jerusalem Post that the Palestinians have another option, at least in theory. The Security Council is the UN organ that admits states to the organization. The council could pass a resolution declaring that a Palestinian state exists and that member states of the UN should recognize it on a bilateral basis. The chances of this happening, however, are questionable, since each of the five permanent members of the Security Council, the US, Britain, France, Russia and China, have veto power over all resolutions presented to the body. Russia and China might be concerned with the precedent the Palestinian move would have for Chechnya or Tibet. For that reason, neither recognized Kosovo in 2008. The resolutions of the UN General Assembly, a body that is overwhelmingly friendly to the Palestinian Authority, are nonbinding and have less impact. However, such a move might prepare the groundwork for the presentation of a similar resolution in the Security Council. According to Gold, the biggest problem facing the PA in unilaterally declaring an independent state is the commitment it made in the 1995 Interim Agreement, Article 31, Paragraph 7, which says, “Neither side shall initiate or take any step that will change the status of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip pending the outcome of the permanent status negotiations. Yep. Oslo was over really a long time ago with the Intifada attacks. |
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It is ridiculous to declare the Palestinians a state with no government, no land and whose main function is to create war crime attacks on Israel. What do they vote for in their elections, chopped liver? No land?…somebody should fill them in that all that land is the property of Israel. Maybe they'd quit fighting to get it back eh? Their main function is war crimes? Isn't that just your Goebbellian opinion?…or can you cite sources to substantiate it? Yes, statehood is important to Israel. They have a real government, real lands and a functional democratic society which respects peaceful neighbors and does not engage in trying to kill innocent people. Why didn't Israel wait until the world recognized it as a state instead of unilaterally declaring statehood? …real (stolen?) lands… …does not engage in trying to kill innocent people. 3. Parts of the Knesset are not at war with other parts of the Knesset. You obviously aren't acquainted with the parliamentary process. Terrorists are not part of the Israeli government. Terrorist actions are not condoned in any way by Israel and if any crimes occur they are prosecuted. Not celebrated. Wasn't Menachem Begin one of Israel's prime ministers and "founding fathers?"…Was he ever prosecuted for his terrorist crimes, like his involvement in blowing up the King David hotel? What prosecution resulted from Israel's act of air piracy on a Syrian airliner in December 1954? Was Ariel Sharon prosecuted for the Sabra & Shatila massacres? Who was prosecuted for trying to sink the USS Liberty?…Oh sorry, I forgot…it was a "mistake." The status of the Israeli borders has been in flux over the years due solely to attacks on Israel from their Arab neighbors who did not respect any of Israel's borders. Which borders?…Can you define them? What do the two blue lines in the flag of Israel symbolize? There has never been a conclusion to the last set of conflicts or agreement on how the Palestinian people will agree to live peacefully alongside Israel. That is why there is no border to the Palestinian entity. It's pretty hard to get the peaceful agreement of a people after you've stolen their land and kicked them out of a good portion of it. Israel insists that any border which arises out of the last series of conflicts be one which is easy to defend on the basis of the many attacks they have endured over the years from their neighbors on the basis of religious hatred. Israel insists that they have confidence building measures and that any state created by the Palestinians recognize Israel's permanent right to exist as a Jewish state. But Palestinians refuse to accept Israel. The American Indians refused to accept the theft of their land too, so "we" destroyed them as a people and murdered many in the process. If that was the right thing to do, then maybe Israel has a case. Personally, I don't think it was right in North America and it looks to me to be just as wrong in the Middle East. That's where we stand and no matter what they call it at the UN… In other words, the opinion of the rest of the world doesn't mean anything to israel. Who is "we"? |
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Edited by
s1owhand
on
Sat 12/01/12 02:35 PM
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It is ridiculous to declare the Palestinians a state with no government, no land and whose main function is to create war crime attacks on Israel. What do they vote for in their elections, chopped liver? No land?…somebody should fill them in that all that land is the property of Israel. Maybe they'd quit fighting to get it back eh? Their main function is war crimes? Isn't that just your Goebbellian opinion?…or can you cite sources to substantiate it? Yes, statehood is important to Israel. They have a real government, real lands and a functional democratic society which respects peaceful neighbors and does not engage in trying to kill innocent people. Why didn't Israel wait until the world recognized it as a state instead of unilaterally declaring statehood? …real (stolen?) lands… …does not engage in trying to kill innocent people. 3. Parts of the Knesset are not at war with other parts of the Knesset. You obviously aren't acquainted with the parliamentary process. Terrorists are not part of the Israeli government. Terrorist actions are not condoned in any way by Israel and if any crimes occur they are prosecuted. Not celebrated. Wasn't Menachem Begin one of Israel's prime ministers and "founding fathers?"…Was he ever prosecuted for his terrorist crimes, like his involvement in blowing up the King David hotel? What prosecution resulted from Israel's act of air piracy on a Syrian airliner in December 1954? Was Ariel Sharon prosecuted for the Sabra & Shatila massacres? Who was prosecuted for trying to sink the USS Liberty?…Oh sorry, I forgot…it was a "mistake." The status of the Israeli borders has been in flux over the years due solely to attacks on Israel from their Arab neighbors who did not respect any of Israel's borders. Which borders?…Can you define them? What do the two blue lines in the flag of Israel symbolize? There has never been a conclusion to the last set of conflicts or agreement on how the Palestinian people will agree to live peacefully alongside Israel. That is why there is no border to the Palestinian entity. It's pretty hard to get the peaceful agreement of a people after you've stolen their land and kicked them out of a good portion of it. Israel insists that any border which arises out of the last series of conflicts be one which is easy to defend on the basis of the many attacks they have endured over the years from their neighbors on the basis of religious hatred. Israel insists that they have confidence building measures and that any state created by the Palestinians recognize Israel's permanent right to exist as a Jewish state. But Palestinians refuse to accept Israel. The American Indians refused to accept the theft of their land too, so "we" destroyed them as a people and murdered many in the process. If that was the right thing to do, then maybe Israel has a case. Personally, I don't think it was right in North America and it looks to me to be just as wrong in the Middle East. That's where we stand and no matter what they call it at the UN… In other words, the opinion of the rest of the world doesn't mean anything to israel. Who is "we"? 1. We is "everybody". Another way of stating it would be this is how the situation stands today. 2. The Palestinians are not like the American Indians and can't reasonably be compared to them. The Palestinians are not indigenous people. The Palestinians never governed the region with tribes or any other type of governance (until after the Oslo accords)... There was never "Palestinian land" and Israel never destroyed it. 3. As indicated above, Israel never "stole" anyone's land and Israel did not force them out. Israelis bought a lot of land and Israel captured a lot of land as a result of defensive wars which they never wanted in the first place. They have returned/evacuated the vast majority of the land they captured. Sinai was returned to Egypt and Gaza was evacuated. The Palestinians are all formerly Jordanians and Egyptians who were never resettled after the 67 war by Jordan or Egypt. The are ethnically diverse and most Palestinians arrived in the region during the same time the Israelis arrived in the region. 4. Begin and Sharon were not directly responsible for massacres and were never prosecuted despite accusations against them. The King David hotel was a military installation at the time of that incident - not civilians. The Sabra/Shatila massacres were not carried out by Israelis but by Lebanese. The accusation is that Israelis allowed it to happen but it is never been clear or decided that there was anything the Israelis could have done to prevent it for certain. So just more slander and misrepresentation on your part. As you say it is pretty obvious that the USS Liberty accident was a mistake. There was never any reason for the Israelis to attack their best and most trusted ally. 5. Finally, I am familiar with the parliamentary process and it is not exactly the same as bus bombings. The rest of your comments I find hard to take seriously. War crimes? Hamas bus bombings, cafe bombings, rocket attacks. Elections does not mean a functional government when Hamas, Fatah and Islamic Jihad ignore the elections and settle their disputes with extrajudicial beatings and killings. Israeli borders? Look it up anywhere or see this link... http://youtu.be/dnIKRse86GU |
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The Palestinians are not like the American Indians and can't reasonably be compared to them. The Palestinians are not indigenous people. So people who have been born on that land for countless generations aren't indigenous? Do you have any idea how ridiculous that sounds? The Palestinians never governed the region with tribes or any other type of governance (until after the Oslo accords)... There was never "Palestinian land" and Israel never destroyed it. Let's have a look at pre-Israel Palestine shall we? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjEBQ_bE7uA https://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=fvwp&v=JGBoGKPZlQE Gee…pretty good imitation of a civilized society if you ask me…and they didn't even have tribes or government you say?…It's amazing that a bunch of immigrant anarchists could look so civilized! Israel never "stole" anyone's land and Israel did not force them out. Then how do you explain the very existence of huge refugee camps like Sabra and Shatila (that Ariel Sharon was responsible for)? Did all those homeless civilians just get together for a 66 year camp-out? Too bad they didn't bring enough marshmallows for the Lebanese militias to toast. If they had, maybe Ariel wouldn't have let them toast the refugees instead. The King David hotel was loaded with civilians when Begin's Irgun terrorists blew it up, and besides, Britain was helping Israel get formed wasn't it? Seems to me that bombing an ally is kinda counterproductive to say the least. Well, that's terrorism for you. It doesn't matter who gets it as long as you kill some people to achieve a political goal. If the palestinians are terrorists, at least they had a good model to emulate. The people who survived the attack on the USS Liberty will never believe it was a "mistake", any more than the Israeli pilot who radioed that the ship was a friendly but was ordered to attack it anyway, or the US Admiral who resigned over the issue. Anyway, the Liberty wasn't a mistake…Lyndon Johnson wanted it sunk too. http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/ussliberty.html Elections does not mean a functional government when Hamas, Fatah and Islamic Jihad ignore the elections …as well as Israel & the US, which refused to recognize the democratic election of Hamas as the ruling party. Once again, I think it's time to take a little history lesson on Palestine.: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3bxj1uvDXU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9u6MvoOQLg&feature=fvwp |
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Edited by
s1owhand
on
Sat 12/01/12 06:55 PM
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