Topic: Foolishness of the wise,,
msharmony's photo
Tue 07/15/14 06:59 PM
Romans 1:20-26 (New testament)


20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.



Let none of us become too assured of how 'wise' we are,,,,,

TBRich's photo
Tue 07/15/14 09:51 PM
This is why many scholars hole Paul as the originator of Xianity. Whereas Jesus' teachings conform to Jewish thought, Paul's does not.

msharmony's photo
Tue 07/15/14 11:29 PM
Edited by msharmony on Tue 07/15/14 11:33 PM
John 8:24, "For if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."


John 6:29, "Jesus answered and said unto them, this is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."

Conrad_73's photo
Wed 07/16/14 12:32 AM
Paul The Globalist!bigsmile

premierblue's photo
Wed 07/16/14 02:44 AM

This is why many scholars hole Paul as the originator of Xianity. Whereas Jesus' teachings conform to Jewish thought, Paul's does not.

No! no! no!! You got it wrong. Xtianity as a separate religion was started by Constantine, the pagan emperor of Rome, in 325 CE at Nicene. Yeshua was just another Jewish scholar who would never have dreamt that he'ld be the founder of a whole new religion. Paul opened up the Nazrene sect to Gentiles and got a lot more followers of Yeshua's teachings!!!

TBRich's photo
Wed 07/16/14 09:15 AM


This is why many scholars hole Paul as the originator of Xianity. Whereas Jesus' teachings conform to Jewish thought, Paul's does not.

No! no! no!! You got it wrong. Xtianity as a separate religion was started by Constantine, the pagan emperor of Rome, in 325 CE at Nicene. Yeshua was just another Jewish scholar who would never have dreamt that he'ld be the founder of a whole new religion. Paul opened up the Nazrene sect to Gentiles and got a lot more followers of Yeshua's teachings!!!



Constantine (who was referred to as the Messiah by many, as he actually fit the definition like Bar Kocba) converted to the religion of Sol Invictus, not Xianity. Most of that stuff is either a lie or forgery, such as, the Donation of Constantine.

TBRich's photo
Wed 07/16/14 09:16 AM
Hey, I wrote hole and not hold, either a Freudian slip of finger slip

TBRich's photo
Wed 07/16/14 09:28 AM

John 8:24, "For if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."



For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, saith the LORD that hath mercy on thee.

Isiah 54:10

TBRich's photo
Wed 07/16/14 09:56 AM


John 8:24, "For if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."



For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, saith the LORD that hath mercy on thee.

Isiah 54:10


"No one, sir," she said. "Then neither do I condemn you,"Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."

John 8:11

TBRich's photo
Wed 07/16/14 10:14 AM
Here is an example explaining how modern man misquotes the Torah and demonstrates their foolishness. No where in the Torah is homosexuality condemned:

Translating the famous Leviticus 18:22 passage is not simple, even with training in the original language, because this is a fractured line, that is, one that has some key words that were omitted. Still, because we have the passages before and after, with intense study, we can put together what the writers of this passage were trying to say to the Israelites so long ago. The Israelites had returned to Jerusalem from seventy years of Babylonian captivity, and those who had returned had been sent by Cyrus of Persia to rebuild the temple to the god of Israel, since Cyrus believed that all the gods of all the nations he possessed should be honored with their own temples. The Israelites in Jerusalem were living in the midst of Canaanites, and the Canaanites worshiped, among other gods, Molech. Leviticus 18:22 is merely one passage among several that admonish the Jews to leave the worship of Molech and separate themselves from any practices that make them like the Canaanites. In the fertility rituals of the temple of Molech, sex was considered one of the sacred elements. Thus, to place the passage in context, notice that the verses before and after 18:22 all deal with various practices in use within the sexual activities in the temple of Molech.

Men had sex on the temple altars with women who were not their own wives; thus, verse 20 begins with the admonition not to have sex with another man’s wife—

“. . . thou shalt not lie carnally with thy neighbor’s wife . . .”

It then, in verse 21, moves on to sacrificing one’s children to Molech—

“. . . thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech . . .”

Now, the famous verse 22—

“. . . thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind . . .”

Then verse 23, “. . . neither shalt thou lie with any beast . . . neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto . . .”

In the temple worship of Molech, as well as many of the other gods, people would have sex to emulate the gods, because they felt that fertile lands were a product of the copulation of the gods. Therefore, imitating this pleasurable act of the gods would catch the attention of the gods, and their admiration of the acts of these mortals would confer that same guarantee of fertile lands and abundant harvests. Any sex act was considered normal, so men with wives, men with other men’s wives, men with men, women with animals, it was all considered sacred and useful for this ritual. But, the Israelites who returned from Babylon had a new religion that they were going to create, and in order to make the temple that they were rebuilding become the power center that they needed it to be, edicts were established that would begin a nation that was unique and separate in all things. Leviticus lays down laws on how they were to dress, how they were to act, how they were to live, how they were to wear their hair and much more. Anything that could possibly make them appear as similar to the Canaanites was forbidden. Thus, the Israelites who had been worshipping in the temple of Molech were now told that they would no longer be permitted to do this. Such dual citizenship was out. If you worshipped in the temple of Molech and then tried to come to the temple of Israel and worship, you would be considered “toevah,” ritually unclean, an abomination, and you would have to cleanse yourself in the mikvah, or ritual cleansing pool in front of the temple, before you would be permitted to enter.

Note here that the word “abomination” has been used over the centuries to proclaim homosexuality a sin before God, and this is not at all what is being said here. The word “abomination” is inserted to translate the word “toevah” which only means ritually unclean, as in one who is ritually unclean may not enter the temple proper until such uncleanness has been ritually washed away by bathing in the mikvah. So many people think that this word means that anyone who is called an “abomination” is an outcast of God and doomed for Hell. Such is not the case. It is merely an ancient temple dictate that has absolutely nothing to do with modern day civilization, and it most certainly does not apply to sexual orientation. It did not apply to sexual orientation back then, and it still does not today. If the writers of Leviticus had wanted to say something was very wrong, they would have used the word “zimah.” They did not, and it is clearly evident from studying this passage further that there would be no need to classify these temple practices as anything more than toevah.

Further proof that Leviticus 18:22 does not say that man shall not lie with man, in other words, man shall not have sex with man, comes from the proper translation of the words in the original language. Here they are: “Vet zachar, lo tishkav mishkvey ishah; toevah hee.” This reads, literally, “And with a zachar, you will not lie in the beds of women; it is a ritual uncleanness.” So, what is a “zachar?” A zachar was an image of a male penis, and these were made out of every element known, from wooden ones to solid gold ones, and they came in all sizes. You might think of them today as a modern sex toy, but in the days of Leviticus, these were even made into amulets that were carried in pockets or worn around the necks of men. Further, this tradition became a regular item of society right on through the time of Christ and the disciples. From historical research, we find that the zachar was used in temple sexual rituals with the temple prostitutes, often men who dressed up like the goddess so that the male who was offering sex on the temple altar could copulate with one of the gods (thus, the “beds of women”), and Israel was not exempt from observing this practice. Note, for example, this passage in Ezekiel:

Ezekiel 16:17 “You took your beautiful things, made of the gold and silver that I had given you, and you made yourself images of men and fornicated with them.”

Here, the words “images of men” is “tsalmey zachar,” which translates properly as “phallic images.” By now, it should be clear what these are, and their use was fully and totally understood by the Israelites, even if such knowledge is lost on modern era people. Even if such knowledge is not commonplace today, we have no excuse for the ignorance that results when we do not go back in history and study the culture of that time so that we can fully understand what the writers of these passages literally meant.

So, the passage in Leviticus 18:22 is not a stand-alone passage, but an item in a list of edicts declared by the new leaders that arose in Israel at that time thousands of years ago. The fact that we can simply read the chapter and see that it begins with a list should suffice, but for those who need further proof, simply read verse 24:

Verse 24 “Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things; for in all these things the nations are defiled which I cast out before you.”

Makes it kind of obvious, don’t you think? The verse in the same discussion in chapter 18 says “these things,” not “this thing.” Leviticus 18:22 is one item in a list of items that the new leaders in Israel were listing as changes to be made in the national identity of all Jews.... but the damage from mis-translating the Bible has gone on for far too long. It is time we learned the truth, then take that truth to set people free from the bondage of ignorance. We’ll never learn to truly love like Jesus taught us to until we do just this, study and apply the truth. The Bible does not condemn homosexuality. Let’s not be afraid to expose the myths and, in so doing as Jesus would have us do, to issue in an era of peace and love.

TBRich's photo
Wed 07/16/14 10:17 AM
However, people are free to believe what they want to believe- just irks me when they use the Torah to try to justify their own hate and prejudice

CowboyGH's photo
Wed 07/16/14 11:09 AM

Here is an example explaining how modern man misquotes the Torah and demonstrates their foolishness. No where in the Torah is homosexuality condemned:

Translating the famous Leviticus 18:22 passage is not simple, even with training in the original language, because this is a fractured line, that is, one that has some key words that were omitted. Still, because we have the passages before and after, with intense study, we can put together what the writers of this passage were trying to say to the Israelites so long ago. The Israelites had returned to Jerusalem from seventy years of Babylonian captivity, and those who had returned had been sent by Cyrus of Persia to rebuild the temple to the god of Israel, since Cyrus believed that all the gods of all the nations he possessed should be honored with their own temples. The Israelites in Jerusalem were living in the midst of Canaanites, and the Canaanites worshiped, among other gods, Molech. Leviticus 18:22 is merely one passage among several that admonish the Jews to leave the worship of Molech and separate themselves from any practices that make them like the Canaanites. In the fertility rituals of the temple of Molech, sex was considered one of the sacred elements. Thus, to place the passage in context, notice that the verses before and after 18:22 all deal with various practices in use within the sexual activities in the temple of Molech.

Men had sex on the temple altars with women who were not their own wives; thus, verse 20 begins with the admonition not to have sex with another man’s wife—

“. . . thou shalt not lie carnally with thy neighbor’s wife . . .”

It then, in verse 21, moves on to sacrificing one’s children to Molech—

“. . . thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech . . .”

Now, the famous verse 22—

“. . . thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind . . .”

Then verse 23, “. . . neither shalt thou lie with any beast . . . neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto . . .”

In the temple worship of Molech, as well as many of the other gods, people would have sex to emulate the gods, because they felt that fertile lands were a product of the copulation of the gods. Therefore, imitating this pleasurable act of the gods would catch the attention of the gods, and their admiration of the acts of these mortals would confer that same guarantee of fertile lands and abundant harvests. Any sex act was considered normal, so men with wives, men with other men’s wives, men with men, women with animals, it was all considered sacred and useful for this ritual. But, the Israelites who returned from Babylon had a new religion that they were going to create, and in order to make the temple that they were rebuilding become the power center that they needed it to be, edicts were established that would begin a nation that was unique and separate in all things. Leviticus lays down laws on how they were to dress, how they were to act, how they were to live, how they were to wear their hair and much more. Anything that could possibly make them appear as similar to the Canaanites was forbidden. Thus, the Israelites who had been worshipping in the temple of Molech were now told that they would no longer be permitted to do this. Such dual citizenship was out. If you worshipped in the temple of Molech and then tried to come to the temple of Israel and worship, you would be considered “toevah,” ritually unclean, an abomination, and you would have to cleanse yourself in the mikvah, or ritual cleansing pool in front of the temple, before you would be permitted to enter.

Note here that the word “abomination” has been used over the centuries to proclaim homosexuality a sin before God, and this is not at all what is being said here. The word “abomination” is inserted to translate the word “toevah” which only means ritually unclean, as in one who is ritually unclean may not enter the temple proper until such uncleanness has been ritually washed away by bathing in the mikvah. So many people think that this word means that anyone who is called an “abomination” is an outcast of God and doomed for Hell. Such is not the case. It is merely an ancient temple dictate that has absolutely nothing to do with modern day civilization, and it most certainly does not apply to sexual orientation. It did not apply to sexual orientation back then, and it still does not today. If the writers of Leviticus had wanted to say something was very wrong, they would have used the word “zimah.” They did not, and it is clearly evident from studying this passage further that there would be no need to classify these temple practices as anything more than toevah.

Further proof that Leviticus 18:22 does not say that man shall not lie with man, in other words, man shall not have sex with man, comes from the proper translation of the words in the original language. Here they are: “Vet zachar, lo tishkav mishkvey ishah; toevah hee.” This reads, literally, “And with a zachar, you will not lie in the beds of women; it is a ritual uncleanness.” So, what is a “zachar?” A zachar was an image of a male penis, and these were made out of every element known, from wooden ones to solid gold ones, and they came in all sizes. You might think of them today as a modern sex toy, but in the days of Leviticus, these were even made into amulets that were carried in pockets or worn around the necks of men. Further, this tradition became a regular item of society right on through the time of Christ and the disciples. From historical research, we find that the zachar was used in temple sexual rituals with the temple prostitutes, often men who dressed up like the goddess so that the male who was offering sex on the temple altar could copulate with one of the gods (thus, the “beds of women”), and Israel was not exempt from observing this practice. Note, for example, this passage in Ezekiel:

Ezekiel 16:17 “You took your beautiful things, made of the gold and silver that I had given you, and you made yourself images of men and fornicated with them.”

Here, the words “images of men” is “tsalmey zachar,” which translates properly as “phallic images.” By now, it should be clear what these are, and their use was fully and totally understood by the Israelites, even if such knowledge is lost on modern era people. Even if such knowledge is not commonplace today, we have no excuse for the ignorance that results when we do not go back in history and study the culture of that time so that we can fully understand what the writers of these passages literally meant.

So, the passage in Leviticus 18:22 is not a stand-alone passage, but an item in a list of edicts declared by the new leaders that arose in Israel at that time thousands of years ago. The fact that we can simply read the chapter and see that it begins with a list should suffice, but for those who need further proof, simply read verse 24:

Verse 24 “Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things; for in all these things the nations are defiled which I cast out before you.”

Makes it kind of obvious, don’t you think? The verse in the same discussion in chapter 18 says “these things,” not “this thing.” Leviticus 18:22 is one item in a list of items that the new leaders in Israel were listing as changes to be made in the national identity of all Jews.... but the damage from mis-translating the Bible has gone on for far too long. It is time we learned the truth, then take that truth to set people free from the bondage of ignorance. We’ll never learn to truly love like Jesus taught us to until we do just this, study and apply the truth. The Bible does not condemn homosexuality. Let’s not be afraid to expose the myths and, in so doing as Jesus would have us do, to issue in an era of peace and love.



Note here that the word “abomination” has been used over the centuries to proclaim homosexuality a sin before God, and this is not at all what is being said here. The word “abomination” is inserted to translate the word “toevah” which only means ritually unclean, as in one who is ritually unclean may not enter the temple proper until such uncleanness has been ritually washed away by bathing in the mikvah. So many people think that this word means that anyone who is called an “abomination” is an outcast of God and doomed for Hell. Such is not the case. It is merely an ancient temple dictate that has absolutely nothing to do with modern day civilization, and it most certainly does not apply to sexual orientation. It did not apply to sexual orientation back then, and it still does not today. If the writers of Leviticus had wanted to say something was very wrong, they would have used the word “zimah.” They did not, and it is clearly evident from studying this passage further that there would be no need to classify these temple practices as anything more than toevah.


But they still go hand in hand. God speaks out against homosexual through out the scriptures. If one sins, they are then unclean. We're speaking of old testament verses. So you must keep in mind once one had sinned then, they were "unclean" until they did something to receive forgiveness of that which they done.

CowboyGH's photo
Wed 07/16/14 11:11 AM


Here is an example explaining how modern man misquotes the Torah and demonstrates their foolishness. No where in the Torah is homosexuality condemned:

Translating the famous Leviticus 18:22 passage is not simple, even with training in the original language, because this is a fractured line, that is, one that has some key words that were omitted. Still, because we have the passages before and after, with intense study, we can put together what the writers of this passage were trying to say to the Israelites so long ago. The Israelites had returned to Jerusalem from seventy years of Babylonian captivity, and those who had returned had been sent by Cyrus of Persia to rebuild the temple to the god of Israel, since Cyrus believed that all the gods of all the nations he possessed should be honored with their own temples. The Israelites in Jerusalem were living in the midst of Canaanites, and the Canaanites worshiped, among other gods, Molech. Leviticus 18:22 is merely one passage among several that admonish the Jews to leave the worship of Molech and separate themselves from any practices that make them like the Canaanites. In the fertility rituals of the temple of Molech, sex was considered one of the sacred elements. Thus, to place the passage in context, notice that the verses before and after 18:22 all deal with various practices in use within the sexual activities in the temple of Molech.

Men had sex on the temple altars with women who were not their own wives; thus, verse 20 begins with the admonition not to have sex with another man’s wife—

“. . . thou shalt not lie carnally with thy neighbor’s wife . . .”

It then, in verse 21, moves on to sacrificing one’s children to Molech—

“. . . thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech . . .”

Now, the famous verse 22—

“. . . thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind . . .”

Then verse 23, “. . . neither shalt thou lie with any beast . . . neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto . . .”

In the temple worship of Molech, as well as many of the other gods, people would have sex to emulate the gods, because they felt that fertile lands were a product of the copulation of the gods. Therefore, imitating this pleasurable act of the gods would catch the attention of the gods, and their admiration of the acts of these mortals would confer that same guarantee of fertile lands and abundant harvests. Any sex act was considered normal, so men with wives, men with other men’s wives, men with men, women with animals, it was all considered sacred and useful for this ritual. But, the Israelites who returned from Babylon had a new religion that they were going to create, and in order to make the temple that they were rebuilding become the power center that they needed it to be, edicts were established that would begin a nation that was unique and separate in all things. Leviticus lays down laws on how they were to dress, how they were to act, how they were to live, how they were to wear their hair and much more. Anything that could possibly make them appear as similar to the Canaanites was forbidden. Thus, the Israelites who had been worshipping in the temple of Molech were now told that they would no longer be permitted to do this. Such dual citizenship was out. If you worshipped in the temple of Molech and then tried to come to the temple of Israel and worship, you would be considered “toevah,” ritually unclean, an abomination, and you would have to cleanse yourself in the mikvah, or ritual cleansing pool in front of the temple, before you would be permitted to enter.

Note here that the word “abomination” has been used over the centuries to proclaim homosexuality a sin before God, and this is not at all what is being said here. The word “abomination” is inserted to translate the word “toevah” which only means ritually unclean, as in one who is ritually unclean may not enter the temple proper until such uncleanness has been ritually washed away by bathing in the mikvah. So many people think that this word means that anyone who is called an “abomination” is an outcast of God and doomed for Hell. Such is not the case. It is merely an ancient temple dictate that has absolutely nothing to do with modern day civilization, and it most certainly does not apply to sexual orientation. It did not apply to sexual orientation back then, and it still does not today. If the writers of Leviticus had wanted to say something was very wrong, they would have used the word “zimah.” They did not, and it is clearly evident from studying this passage further that there would be no need to classify these temple practices as anything more than toevah.

Further proof that Leviticus 18:22 does not say that man shall not lie with man, in other words, man shall not have sex with man, comes from the proper translation of the words in the original language. Here they are: “Vet zachar, lo tishkav mishkvey ishah; toevah hee.” This reads, literally, “And with a zachar, you will not lie in the beds of women; it is a ritual uncleanness.” So, what is a “zachar?” A zachar was an image of a male penis, and these were made out of every element known, from wooden ones to solid gold ones, and they came in all sizes. You might think of them today as a modern sex toy, but in the days of Leviticus, these were even made into amulets that were carried in pockets or worn around the necks of men. Further, this tradition became a regular item of society right on through the time of Christ and the disciples. From historical research, we find that the zachar was used in temple sexual rituals with the temple prostitutes, often men who dressed up like the goddess so that the male who was offering sex on the temple altar could copulate with one of the gods (thus, the “beds of women”), and Israel was not exempt from observing this practice. Note, for example, this passage in Ezekiel:

Ezekiel 16:17 “You took your beautiful things, made of the gold and silver that I had given you, and you made yourself images of men and fornicated with them.”

Here, the words “images of men” is “tsalmey zachar,” which translates properly as “phallic images.” By now, it should be clear what these are, and their use was fully and totally understood by the Israelites, even if such knowledge is lost on modern era people. Even if such knowledge is not commonplace today, we have no excuse for the ignorance that results when we do not go back in history and study the culture of that time so that we can fully understand what the writers of these passages literally meant.

So, the passage in Leviticus 18:22 is not a stand-alone passage, but an item in a list of edicts declared by the new leaders that arose in Israel at that time thousands of years ago. The fact that we can simply read the chapter and see that it begins with a list should suffice, but for those who need further proof, simply read verse 24:

Verse 24 “Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things; for in all these things the nations are defiled which I cast out before you.”

Makes it kind of obvious, don’t you think? The verse in the same discussion in chapter 18 says “these things,” not “this thing.” Leviticus 18:22 is one item in a list of items that the new leaders in Israel were listing as changes to be made in the national identity of all Jews.... but the damage from mis-translating the Bible has gone on for far too long. It is time we learned the truth, then take that truth to set people free from the bondage of ignorance. We’ll never learn to truly love like Jesus taught us to until we do just this, study and apply the truth. The Bible does not condemn homosexuality. Let’s not be afraid to expose the myths and, in so doing as Jesus would have us do, to issue in an era of peace and love.



Note here that the word “abomination” has been used over the centuries to proclaim homosexuality a sin before God, and this is not at all what is being said here. The word “abomination” is inserted to translate the word “toevah” which only means ritually unclean, as in one who is ritually unclean may not enter the temple proper until such uncleanness has been ritually washed away by bathing in the mikvah. So many people think that this word means that anyone who is called an “abomination” is an outcast of God and doomed for Hell. Such is not the case. It is merely an ancient temple dictate that has absolutely nothing to do with modern day civilization, and it most certainly does not apply to sexual orientation. It did not apply to sexual orientation back then, and it still does not today. If the writers of Leviticus had wanted to say something was very wrong, they would have used the word “zimah.” They did not, and it is clearly evident from studying this passage further that there would be no need to classify these temple practices as anything more than toevah.


But they still go hand in hand. God speaks out against homosexual through out the scriptures. If one sins, they are then unclean. We're speaking of old testament verses. So you must keep in mind once one had sinned then, they were "unclean" until they did something to receive forgiveness of that which they done.


And more on what you stated there is, you can not jump between the old testament and new testament and keep a clear discussion going on.

Some verses are from the new testament, some are from the old testament. Then you go off talking about the Torah. The new testament has absolutely nothing to do with the Torah.

You replied to an Isiah verse which is old testament and responded with a new testament verse eg., John 8:11 thinking they have anything coalition between them.

CowboyGH's photo
Wed 07/16/14 11:18 AM



Here is an example explaining how modern man misquotes the Torah and demonstrates their foolishness. No where in the Torah is homosexuality condemned:

Translating the famous Leviticus 18:22 passage is not simple, even with training in the original language, because this is a fractured line, that is, one that has some key words that were omitted. Still, because we have the passages before and after, with intense study, we can put together what the writers of this passage were trying to say to the Israelites so long ago. The Israelites had returned to Jerusalem from seventy years of Babylonian captivity, and those who had returned had been sent by Cyrus of Persia to rebuild the temple to the god of Israel, since Cyrus believed that all the gods of all the nations he possessed should be honored with their own temples. The Israelites in Jerusalem were living in the midst of Canaanites, and the Canaanites worshiped, among other gods, Molech. Leviticus 18:22 is merely one passage among several that admonish the Jews to leave the worship of Molech and separate themselves from any practices that make them like the Canaanites. In the fertility rituals of the temple of Molech, sex was considered one of the sacred elements. Thus, to place the passage in context, notice that the verses before and after 18:22 all deal with various practices in use within the sexual activities in the temple of Molech.

Men had sex on the temple altars with women who were not their own wives; thus, verse 20 begins with the admonition not to have sex with another man’s wife—

“. . . thou shalt not lie carnally with thy neighbor’s wife . . .”

It then, in verse 21, moves on to sacrificing one’s children to Molech—

“. . . thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech . . .”

Now, the famous verse 22—

“. . . thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind . . .”

Then verse 23, “. . . neither shalt thou lie with any beast . . . neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto . . .”

In the temple worship of Molech, as well as many of the other gods, people would have sex to emulate the gods, because they felt that fertile lands were a product of the copulation of the gods. Therefore, imitating this pleasurable act of the gods would catch the attention of the gods, and their admiration of the acts of these mortals would confer that same guarantee of fertile lands and abundant harvests. Any sex act was considered normal, so men with wives, men with other men’s wives, men with men, women with animals, it was all considered sacred and useful for this ritual. But, the Israelites who returned from Babylon had a new religion that they were going to create, and in order to make the temple that they were rebuilding become the power center that they needed it to be, edicts were established that would begin a nation that was unique and separate in all things. Leviticus lays down laws on how they were to dress, how they were to act, how they were to live, how they were to wear their hair and much more. Anything that could possibly make them appear as similar to the Canaanites was forbidden. Thus, the Israelites who had been worshipping in the temple of Molech were now told that they would no longer be permitted to do this. Such dual citizenship was out. If you worshipped in the temple of Molech and then tried to come to the temple of Israel and worship, you would be considered “toevah,” ritually unclean, an abomination, and you would have to cleanse yourself in the mikvah, or ritual cleansing pool in front of the temple, before you would be permitted to enter.

Note here that the word “abomination” has been used over the centuries to proclaim homosexuality a sin before God, and this is not at all what is being said here. The word “abomination” is inserted to translate the word “toevah” which only means ritually unclean, as in one who is ritually unclean may not enter the temple proper until such uncleanness has been ritually washed away by bathing in the mikvah. So many people think that this word means that anyone who is called an “abomination” is an outcast of God and doomed for Hell. Such is not the case. It is merely an ancient temple dictate that has absolutely nothing to do with modern day civilization, and it most certainly does not apply to sexual orientation. It did not apply to sexual orientation back then, and it still does not today. If the writers of Leviticus had wanted to say something was very wrong, they would have used the word “zimah.” They did not, and it is clearly evident from studying this passage further that there would be no need to classify these temple practices as anything more than toevah.

Further proof that Leviticus 18:22 does not say that man shall not lie with man, in other words, man shall not have sex with man, comes from the proper translation of the words in the original language. Here they are: “Vet zachar, lo tishkav mishkvey ishah; toevah hee.” This reads, literally, “And with a zachar, you will not lie in the beds of women; it is a ritual uncleanness.” So, what is a “zachar?” A zachar was an image of a male penis, and these were made out of every element known, from wooden ones to solid gold ones, and they came in all sizes. You might think of them today as a modern sex toy, but in the days of Leviticus, these were even made into amulets that were carried in pockets or worn around the necks of men. Further, this tradition became a regular item of society right on through the time of Christ and the disciples. From historical research, we find that the zachar was used in temple sexual rituals with the temple prostitutes, often men who dressed up like the goddess so that the male who was offering sex on the temple altar could copulate with one of the gods (thus, the “beds of women”), and Israel was not exempt from observing this practice. Note, for example, this passage in Ezekiel:

Ezekiel 16:17 “You took your beautiful things, made of the gold and silver that I had given you, and you made yourself images of men and fornicated with them.”

Here, the words “images of men” is “tsalmey zachar,” which translates properly as “phallic images.” By now, it should be clear what these are, and their use was fully and totally understood by the Israelites, even if such knowledge is lost on modern era people. Even if such knowledge is not commonplace today, we have no excuse for the ignorance that results when we do not go back in history and study the culture of that time so that we can fully understand what the writers of these passages literally meant.

So, the passage in Leviticus 18:22 is not a stand-alone passage, but an item in a list of edicts declared by the new leaders that arose in Israel at that time thousands of years ago. The fact that we can simply read the chapter and see that it begins with a list should suffice, but for those who need further proof, simply read verse 24:

Verse 24 “Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things; for in all these things the nations are defiled which I cast out before you.”

Makes it kind of obvious, don’t you think? The verse in the same discussion in chapter 18 says “these things,” not “this thing.” Leviticus 18:22 is one item in a list of items that the new leaders in Israel were listing as changes to be made in the national identity of all Jews.... but the damage from mis-translating the Bible has gone on for far too long. It is time we learned the truth, then take that truth to set people free from the bondage of ignorance. We’ll never learn to truly love like Jesus taught us to until we do just this, study and apply the truth. The Bible does not condemn homosexuality. Let’s not be afraid to expose the myths and, in so doing as Jesus would have us do, to issue in an era of peace and love.



Note here that the word “abomination” has been used over the centuries to proclaim homosexuality a sin before God, and this is not at all what is being said here. The word “abomination” is inserted to translate the word “toevah” which only means ritually unclean, as in one who is ritually unclean may not enter the temple proper until such uncleanness has been ritually washed away by bathing in the mikvah. So many people think that this word means that anyone who is called an “abomination” is an outcast of God and doomed for Hell. Such is not the case. It is merely an ancient temple dictate that has absolutely nothing to do with modern day civilization, and it most certainly does not apply to sexual orientation. It did not apply to sexual orientation back then, and it still does not today. If the writers of Leviticus had wanted to say something was very wrong, they would have used the word “zimah.” They did not, and it is clearly evident from studying this passage further that there would be no need to classify these temple practices as anything more than toevah.


But they still go hand in hand. God speaks out against homosexual through out the scriptures. If one sins, they are then unclean. We're speaking of old testament verses. So you must keep in mind once one had sinned then, they were "unclean" until they did something to receive forgiveness of that which they done.


And more on what you stated there is, you can not jump between the old testament and new testament and keep a clear discussion going on.

Some verses are from the new testament, some are from the old testament. Then you go off talking about the Torah. The new testament has absolutely nothing to do with the Torah.

You replied to an Isiah verse which is old testament and responded with a new testament verse eg., John 8:11 thinking they have anything coalition between them.



The Bible does not condemn homosexuality.


1 Corinthians 6:9 King james

9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

Now lets look at the translation of the New King James

9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites,

And most to all other translations specifically say "homosexuals" rather then effeminate. Effeminate is a male who acquires more feminine qualities then masculine.

TBRich's photo
Wed 07/16/14 12:49 PM




Here is an example explaining how modern man misquotes the Torah and demonstrates their foolishness. No where in the Torah is homosexuality condemned:

Translating the famous Leviticus 18:22 passage is not simple, even with training in the original language, because this is a fractured line, that is, one that has some key words that were omitted. Still, because we have the passages before and after, with intense study, we can put together what the writers of this passage were trying to say to the Israelites so long ago. The Israelites had returned to Jerusalem from seventy years of Babylonian captivity, and those who had returned had been sent by Cyrus of Persia to rebuild the temple to the god of Israel, since Cyrus believed that all the gods of all the nations he possessed should be honored with their own temples. The Israelites in Jerusalem were living in the midst of Canaanites, and the Canaanites worshiped, among other gods, Molech. Leviticus 18:22 is merely one passage among several that admonish the Jews to leave the worship of Molech and separate themselves from any practices that make them like the Canaanites. In the fertility rituals of the temple of Molech, sex was considered one of the sacred elements. Thus, to place the passage in context, notice that the verses before and after 18:22 all deal with various practices in use within the sexual activities in the temple of Molech.

Men had sex on the temple altars with women who were not their own wives; thus, verse 20 begins with the admonition not to have sex with another man’s wife—

“. . . thou shalt not lie carnally with thy neighbor’s wife . . .”

It then, in verse 21, moves on to sacrificing one’s children to Molech—

“. . . thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech . . .”

Now, the famous verse 22—

“. . . thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind . . .”

Then verse 23, “. . . neither shalt thou lie with any beast . . . neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto . . .”

In the temple worship of Molech, as well as many of the other gods, people would have sex to emulate the gods, because they felt that fertile lands were a product of the copulation of the gods. Therefore, imitating this pleasurable act of the gods would catch the attention of the gods, and their admiration of the acts of these mortals would confer that same guarantee of fertile lands and abundant harvests. Any sex act was considered normal, so men with wives, men with other men’s wives, men with men, women with animals, it was all considered sacred and useful for this ritual. But, the Israelites who returned from Babylon had a new religion that they were going to create, and in order to make the temple that they were rebuilding become the power center that they needed it to be, edicts were established that would begin a nation that was unique and separate in all things. Leviticus lays down laws on how they were to dress, how they were to act, how they were to live, how they were to wear their hair and much more. Anything that could possibly make them appear as similar to the Canaanites was forbidden. Thus, the Israelites who had been worshipping in the temple of Molech were now told that they would no longer be permitted to do this. Such dual citizenship was out. If you worshipped in the temple of Molech and then tried to come to the temple of Israel and worship, you would be considered “toevah,” ritually unclean, an abomination, and you would have to cleanse yourself in the mikvah, or ritual cleansing pool in front of the temple, before you would be permitted to enter.

Note here that the word “abomination” has been used over the centuries to proclaim homosexuality a sin before God, and this is not at all what is being said here. The word “abomination” is inserted to translate the word “toevah” which only means ritually unclean, as in one who is ritually unclean may not enter the temple proper until such uncleanness has been ritually washed away by bathing in the mikvah. So many people think that this word means that anyone who is called an “abomination” is an outcast of God and doomed for Hell. Such is not the case. It is merely an ancient temple dictate that has absolutely nothing to do with modern day civilization, and it most certainly does not apply to sexual orientation. It did not apply to sexual orientation back then, and it still does not today. If the writers of Leviticus had wanted to say something was very wrong, they would have used the word “zimah.” They did not, and it is clearly evident from studying this passage further that there would be no need to classify these temple practices as anything more than toevah.

Further proof that Leviticus 18:22 does not say that man shall not lie with man, in other words, man shall not have sex with man, comes from the proper translation of the words in the original language. Here they are: “Vet zachar, lo tishkav mishkvey ishah; toevah hee.” This reads, literally, “And with a zachar, you will not lie in the beds of women; it is a ritual uncleanness.” So, what is a “zachar?” A zachar was an image of a male penis, and these were made out of every element known, from wooden ones to solid gold ones, and they came in all sizes. You might think of them today as a modern sex toy, but in the days of Leviticus, these were even made into amulets that were carried in pockets or worn around the necks of men. Further, this tradition became a regular item of society right on through the time of Christ and the disciples. From historical research, we find that the zachar was used in temple sexual rituals with the temple prostitutes, often men who dressed up like the goddess so that the male who was offering sex on the temple altar could copulate with one of the gods (thus, the “beds of women”), and Israel was not exempt from observing this practice. Note, for example, this passage in Ezekiel:

Ezekiel 16:17 “You took your beautiful things, made of the gold and silver that I had given you, and you made yourself images of men and fornicated with them.”

Here, the words “images of men” is “tsalmey zachar,” which translates properly as “phallic images.” By now, it should be clear what these are, and their use was fully and totally understood by the Israelites, even if such knowledge is lost on modern era people. Even if such knowledge is not commonplace today, we have no excuse for the ignorance that results when we do not go back in history and study the culture of that time so that we can fully understand what the writers of these passages literally meant.

So, the passage in Leviticus 18:22 is not a stand-alone passage, but an item in a list of edicts declared by the new leaders that arose in Israel at that time thousands of years ago. The fact that we can simply read the chapter and see that it begins with a list should suffice, but for those who need further proof, simply read verse 24:

Verse 24 “Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things; for in all these things the nations are defiled which I cast out before you.”

Makes it kind of obvious, don’t you think? The verse in the same discussion in chapter 18 says “these things,” not “this thing.” Leviticus 18:22 is one item in a list of items that the new leaders in Israel were listing as changes to be made in the national identity of all Jews.... but the damage from mis-translating the Bible has gone on for far too long. It is time we learned the truth, then take that truth to set people free from the bondage of ignorance. We’ll never learn to truly love like Jesus taught us to until we do just this, study and apply the truth. The Bible does not condemn homosexuality. Let’s not be afraid to expose the myths and, in so doing as Jesus would have us do, to issue in an era of peace and love.



Note here that the word “abomination” has been used over the centuries to proclaim homosexuality a sin before God, and this is not at all what is being said here. The word “abomination” is inserted to translate the word “toevah” which only means ritually unclean, as in one who is ritually unclean may not enter the temple proper until such uncleanness has been ritually washed away by bathing in the mikvah. So many people think that this word means that anyone who is called an “abomination” is an outcast of God and doomed for Hell. Such is not the case. It is merely an ancient temple dictate that has absolutely nothing to do with modern day civilization, and it most certainly does not apply to sexual orientation. It did not apply to sexual orientation back then, and it still does not today. If the writers of Leviticus had wanted to say something was very wrong, they would have used the word “zimah.” They did not, and it is clearly evident from studying this passage further that there would be no need to classify these temple practices as anything more than toevah.


But they still go hand in hand. God speaks out against homosexual through out the scriptures. If one sins, they are then unclean. We're speaking of old testament verses. So you must keep in mind once one had sinned then, they were "unclean" until they did something to receive forgiveness of that which they done.


And more on what you stated there is, you can not jump between the old testament and new testament and keep a clear discussion going on.

Some verses are from the new testament, some are from the old testament. Then you go off talking about the Torah. The new testament has absolutely nothing to do with the Torah.

You replied to an Isiah verse which is old testament and responded with a new testament verse eg., John 8:11 thinking they have anything coalition between them.



The Bible does not condemn homosexuality.


1 Corinthians 6:9 King james

9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

Now lets look at the translation of the New King James

9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites,

And most to all other translations specifically say "homosexuals" rather then effeminate. Effeminate is a male who acquires more feminine qualities then masculine.


Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
Luke 17: oops I forget

TBRich's photo
Wed 07/16/14 12:50 PM
Luje 17:21

TBRich's photo
Wed 07/16/14 04:50 PM
Shall will breakdown Paul, as well as, it often helps people become "better" Xians, once they understand what he is saying.

Firstly, the term fornicators. Means sex between two unmarried people but only in the modern sense. The actual Greek word Paul uses refers to Temple prostitution.

But it is not my intention to give a graduate school lesson in theology here. But I do recommend you actually do some legitimate study.

Dodo_David's photo
Wed 07/16/14 06:52 PM

... I do recommend you actually do some legitimate study.


You first. rofl

TBRich's photo
Thu 07/17/14 02:55 PM


... I do recommend you actually do some legitimate study.


You first. rofl


And you wonder why less and less people take Xianity seriously

CowboyGH's photo
Thu 07/17/14 03:57 PM



... I do recommend you actually do some legitimate study.


You first. rofl


And you wonder why less and less people take Xianity seriously


What does that have to do what he said or the conversation there of? It is not anyone's obligation or job to prove anything to you or anyone else. So by not taking Christianity not seriously due to something someone said, is by all means their choice, their decision.

TBRich said

Shall will breakdown Paul, as well as, it often helps people become "better" Xians, once they understand what he is saying.

Firstly, the term fornicators. Means sex between two unmarried people but only in the modern sense. The actual Greek word Paul uses refers to Temple prostitution.

But it is not my intention to give a graduate school lesson in theology here. But I do recommend you actually do some legitimate study


Temple prostitution? Prostitution, couples unmarried, or just random acts of sex are all the exact same thing and is all fornication. It is all sex of two unmarried people. That's where the foul lays in being unmarried. Weather it's for money or not is merely details thereof, but the foul in itself is the unmarried sex.