The answer to the riddle of the Black Knight from Mallory's Arthurian Tales, "What do women want?", was choice. At least, according to Mallory. Obviously, women today have a great deal more opportunity to be self-determinative than did women in Arthurian times. That said, my question is this: to what degree does this answer still apply?

Ladies, would you prefer to be making the decisions, or to have your guy show some initiative?

let me think on that

Both.

Actually is was "autonomy", whem Sr Gwaine married Ragnell the hag(she had the answer), she appeared to him as a wonderous beauty on their honey moon and she told him "you can have me this way by night or by day and the other will be the horrible hag, which, my Lord is your preference?" And Sir Gwaine answered, "Lady the choice is yours..."
In that instance the spell was broken and Ragnell was released from the spell and remained a beauty the rest of her life....
We have many opportunities and choices, its true, but we are far short of autonomy.

Right now I make all of the decisions in my families life. It would be nice to have someone to share that responsibility with.

Syndel - But is autonomy, at least in the sense of independence, truly to be desired? We could quibble over translation and word choice, but I find this aspect of your note more interesting.

Certainly no man or woman, save the few of us willing to live lives of true solitude, can ever truly be autonomous. From birth to death we are beholden to someone, influenced by our love for others, dependent upon others for things that we need, and reliant upon friends and loved ones for the support which gets us through the day.

Admittedly, you answered one point of the post just by expressing familiarity with the story (yes, I'll admit it, I have a soft spot for well-read women who are willing to argue about obscure literature with me), but I'm also interested in your take on another aspect.

To offer one concrete example: You have had a terrible week, you're PMSing, and you are just feeling sore and irritable. Should your guy be asking you what your want, or showing up with aspirin, chocolate, and foot rubs without your having to ask? Which is worth more, the chance to get exactly what you want, or the romance of not having to ask?

"To offer one concrete example: You have had a terrible week, you're PMSing, and you are just feeling sore and irritable. Should your guy be asking you what your want, or showing up with aspirin, chocolate, and foot rubs without your having to ask? Which is worth more, the chance to get exactly what you want, or the romance of not having to ask?"


Me thinks you must crawl out from under the rock from whence you came....your archaic though process is not going to get you anywhere real fast.
If you are seeking a *****y, PMSing, bloated beotch to be subservient to, you are certain to find one.

Lol, if the rock was "whence I came", wouldn't I have already crawled out from under it? Thanks for your feedback. I'll totally disregard it as useless, but I appreciate your taking the time to reply all the same.

Nom...
Autonomy: self-determination....your PMS scenario has nothing to do with self-determination, one would think that my mate would be sensitive enough to know when I am in need of comfort and an asprine...however, deciding with whom, when, where, what I do with MY life is my choice,or at least should be. Given that our society has very specific ideas about gender and the roles men and women play, self-determination is key in breaking free from those stereotypes that have us so worried about "acting" right or committing PC foe pas (sp?)
Take this up a level, for a more interesting dialog...I wouldn't mind a good debate, besides, what side of coin are you on?

Symbel-
I take your point about gender roles. After all, I'm hardly the most testosterone-laden guy in most rooms. I've got my manly-moments, but mostly I'm the sensitive type. As such, I have my own reasons for resenting gender roles.

To be honest, part of what prompted me to post this thread was a bunch of female friends posting blogs on Valentine's Day cheering that their boyfriends "got it right". Literally, those words exactly, used by five different women. I have to admit, that annoyed me. I mean, what's the point of romance if you're just fulfilling some pre-programmed social perogative?

Personally, I prefer to be spontaneous. V-day is nice enough, I suppose, but it seems like one of the worst nights of the year to take someone out. I mean, huge crowds everywhere, tons of cash spent on gifts, and the whole punch-line is that rather than getting credit for being a romantic, you get penalized if you don't meet the curve? Screw that. I'd really rather make the romantic gesture when it isn't expected or scheduled and instead comes from the heart.

OK, little rant there, and not what you were asking ...

In general, I could care less about social roles. I support, though do not belong to, the GLBTQ community, and I rather like people who can't be easily boxed. That said, I find I'm more sensitive about my perceived "manliness" than I ever wanted to be, so there's my inner hypocrite for you.

Ummm ... yeah. Think I lost where I was going with that somewhere around page 5 ...

Nom, see? My point exactly...gender stereotyping forces you to "excuse" yourself for not being the "most testosterone-laden guy".

I think the VD posts are just geared to the lack of romance, sensitivity and overall inability to pay attention to the needs of ones partner...frustrating as heck, but very little to do with choice, except of course the choice to find another partner! haha

I've been in the GLBT community for many years and ironically I find that overall, queer-folk have a tendency to be the most rigid stereotypers of all while proclaiming to be "gender benders"...go figure.

Be sensitive if thats what you are, makes you more of a man than someone who isnt in touch with his feelings because he's too afraid to step outside his gender box...

I think women still have a very important roll. That's why god gave them smaller feet than man. So they could stand closer to the stove in order to have supper cooked when man walks in the door.

oh yea....a ladies man.....

I prefer to have the CHOICE to be able to give my FULL CONSENT to my Guy to be making most of the decisions, especially as it applies to our personal/sex life.

like choice, like a secure guy too ... definitely appreciate a guy showing initiative