The key word I used that you missed was "sinner". These are all sins as God clearly states in His word. I never equated any these with any kind of crime. Since when does speaking truth equal hatred? As I said to Ladylid, check the facts see if I'm wrong about the leading causes of death in this community. I know it makes no sense to you that I could possibly be saying these things out of love. It's no different then the pleading I made to my mother over the years to quit smoking. Until 1 day the cigarettes claimed her life. It does no one any good to suppress the truth.

tf73

Sorry this is sickening to me.

Falsely justifying the hatred and prejudice with the religion and "love" doesn't make it right or even palatable.

Save it for someone who will buy into the ******** because I do not.

Judging was never to be towards the outsider. Meaning your religion or group.

Thier is a judgement for all of us and when he said Judge not he is speaking of the unbeliever.


Who did Yahshua say had the Most faith in Israel?

Gen 1:1 - Matt 8:13

Now when Yahshua had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to Him, pleading with Him, 6 saying, "Master, my servant is lying at home paralyzed, dreadfully tormented."

7 And Jesus said to him, "I will come and heal him."

8 The centurion answered and said, "Master, I am not worthy that You should come under my roof. But only speak a word, and my servant will be healed. 9 For I also am a man under authority, having soldiers under me. And I say to this one, 'Go,' and he goes; and to another, 'Come,' and he comes; and to my servant, 'Do this,' and he does it."

10 When Yahshua heard it, He marveled, and said to those who followed, "Assuredly, I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel! 11 And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 13 Then Yahshua said to the centurion, "Go your way; and as you have believed, so let it be done for you." And his servant was healed that same hour
NKJV


Again when we read this story what a slap in the face to the religious leaders of the time who knew all.

Yahshua would say the same thing today because we do not know the hearts of people.

Those you speak of even though the scriptures speak of them it is speaking to those who have left and went into these type lifestyles and refuse to change. If you do not believe it is simple u do not believe.

Yaqhshua will again say to the Great Theologians of the world who preach that the unbeliever has no hope. When they see his love and ask for help and not be saved as you may say he will say.

"Assuredly, I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel

Judging was never to be towards the outsider. Meaning your religion or group.

Thier is a judgement for all of us and when he said Judge not he is speaking of the unbeliever.


Who did Yahshua say had the Most faith in Israel?

Gen 1:1 - Matt 8:13

Now when Yahshua had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to Him, pleading with Him, 6 saying, "Master, my servant is lying at home paralyzed, dreadfully tormented."

7 And Yahshua said to him, "I will come and heal him."

8 The centurion answered and said, "Master, I am not worthy that You should come under my roof. But only speak a word, and my servant will be healed. 9 For I also am a man under authority, having soldiers under me. And I say to this one, 'Go,' and he goes; and to another, 'Come,' and he comes; and to my servant, 'Do this,' and he does it."

10 When Yahshua heard it, He marveled, and said to those who followed, "Assuredly, I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel! 11 And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 13 Then Yahshua said to the centurion, "Go your way; and as you have believed, so let it be done for you." And his servant was healed that same hour
NKJV


Again when we read this story what a slap in the face to the religious leaders of the time who knew all.

Yahshua would say the same thing today because we do not know the hearts of people.

Those you speak of even though the scriptures speak of them it is speaking to those who have left and went into these type lifestyles and refuse to change. If you do not believe it is simple u do not believe.

Yaqhshua will again say to the Great Theologians of the world who preach that the unbeliever has no hope. When they see his love and ask for help and not be saved as you may say he will say.

"Assuredly, I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel



look at what Michael the Archangel said to satan.

Jude 7-9

7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, Yahweh rebuke thee.


Even Michael did not jude who was outside of him . He knew what putting coals as the Prophets did on thier heads meant. We need to understand that also... Blessings...Miles
KJV

I see this kind of behavior coming from a lot of people (not just conservative christians). I suspect that this is a systemic problem. That is, since most individuals are not taught to think and use their imaginations from their sacred institutions (school, government, etc), they develop a very narrow, intolerant worldview.

I am not sure what hate filled Christians you are talking about because it has been a long time since I have read any news about a Christian going on a murder rampage in the name of Christianity.I do see Christians doing more for people of all races,backgrounds,and history more than any other charity out there.Who do you think runs the food banks and homeless shelters?Who does more to get people off drugs and out of prison.Who helps the battered and struggling wives in abusive marriages?Who runs the orphanages?It's not the Buddist,it's no the Muslims,in not the government,and it sure ain't the atheist.It's the Christians.Everyday hundreds of people around the world give testimony about how turning to Christiany saved their troubled lives.I have never heard a single story of someone saying they were hooked on drugs or alchohol and turning into a Atheist helped save their live.I have never heard a single story of someone saying that coming to Buddism cured their porn problem.


As far as people posting in here and I'm sure I am one of those you are referring to,we have rules,morals,and commandments that are set in stone.They are non negotiable and they don't change to fit someone's agenda.I know a lot of people don't like what I believe because it is not politically correct and I know my time here on Mingle is probably coming to a end because of it.But there is one thing I know with out a doubt.I am going to die one day.I will not stand in front of the gays and be judged.I will not stand in front of the Atheist and be judged.I will stand before God and be judged and when I do I know God will be pleased that I followed his laws,his commands,and his word.When someone calls me a jerk,hater,racist,bigot,and every other name under the sun I don't give it a second though because it is always by the same group of people.I have also found out that this same group can dish out more racism,hate,and evil than any Christians every could.

Sooner or later every Atheist turns to Christianity because they know it is a fight they will never win and if you can't beat them join them.

This post was wishful thinking on your part...lol

Thanks for the info 'tribefan'.

I was unaware that the following 'hot button' issues had been settled overnight!!!
- 'Israelo-Palestinian,
- 'Pro-choice vs Pro-life',
- 'Separation of Chruch and State in America',
- 'Evolution science vs Creationism fable',
- 'The bible: man written vs god inspired',
- 'not enough time to list other religious-right 'hot buttons'

Can't wait for the news hour tonight!!!



FORMER HOMOSEXUALS!!! You're serious?!?!? You mean from the 'good church' conversion programs which welcomes 'REPENTANT HOMOSEXUALS' under the sine qua none promise to convert to 'heterosexualism'?!?!?! Those FORMER HOMOSEXUALS???

I'm not sure whether that is the epitomy of naïvity or perversity?!?!



And of course, YOU of all quidam sinners, are the ultimate judge of 'measuring-up' just fine!!!

WOW!!! You truly are hitting the 'BULL'S EYE' of this post!!!

Hannity and Limbaugh make think of the line "The great price of freedom is even fools get to have opinions."

It is funny how someone quotes scripture and says 'thou shalt not judge, lest ye be judged' but they themselves are judging an entire group based on the stereotype of a few...yet they still call out the entire group(look at the title)

I am going to reference the homosexual comments made in here(even though they came out of nowhere with no real basis or even relevance to the topic in my opinion)

I am a christian, and guess what? I have a lesbian roomate! we actually got into a biblical discussion last night and she commented on how few christians she could actually do that with. She says she is a christian and who am I to tell her otherwise? do I know her heart? nope...noone does.

She said something that made me think a little, she said "I know when i die, I probably have to answer for my sexuality, but that is only one part of who I am, we all have sinned and when I do die I don't think God will look at only that as to who I am as an individual."

The Bible also says "we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God"

So who are we to judge what sin is more punishable? if we are to believe the words of Christ who is the one people he said WERE not getting into heaven? ummm...the pharisees...you know those people who prayed on the street corners so others could hear how 'holy' they were, those people that looked with disgust on the "sinners' of the time...those people that sat on their high horse thinking they were 'Holier than thou" umm....hmmm sounds like a lot of modern christians(or those that call themselves that) But it is only part of the population we shouldn't judge on either side imo. because guess what? we ALL have skeletons in our closet, we have ALL done things we are ashamed of....so which one of us really has the right to judge?....umm Christ, the only thing we are to do is to "love the neighbor as yourself" and "love the lord your God with all your heart" I don't remember any passage that 'selected' who your neighbor was to be...I don't remember a passage saying "Love your neighbor, well that is only if they are straight" Or "love your neighbor, well that is only if the are a fellow believer" nope don't remember none of that.

That is a interesting reply.One I have heard many times before and would like to comment on.When Jesus was speaking about judging he was not talking about judging after the facts were known.What Jesus was talking about was blind judgment with out any information on who or what you are talking about.A good example would be thinking a woman is a prostitute just because she is wearing sexy clothes and standing on the end of a corner.Or thinking someone is a bum just because he is not clean and wears old clothes.If you know someone is a murder,thief,drug dealer,Atheist,etc and you don't want to associate with them because of your Christian values then it is a totally valid judgment and one backed up by the bible verses.A great deal if not the majority of the bible speaks about what kind of people to associate with and not to associate with.What kind of evil people to avoid and other people who do evil things.It also says Christians are better off sticking together and should avoid people who would have a bad influence or not believers.It would be absurd to not judge people as you would be risking your life and freedom by inviting anyone no matter who they are into your house.

As far as your friend goes.God has harsh judgment for Christians who know the word and read the word yet ignore it,disobey it and twist the bible to fit their sinful agenda.God talks about people in high power(such as priests,and bishops)and said if they were to twist the bible and knowingly mislead people in the name of God they would be given a "unforgivable sin" that could never be taken away even in heaven.A lot of Christians think that once they are saved they can just do what they want,pray for forgiveness and thats it.This is not true.Jesus once said "I gave you the crown of life and I will take away the crown of life".People also seem to forget that you will get your rewards and punishment by doing or not doing what the bible says here on earth.If you are a Christian and you rarely or never pray or go to church do you think God or Jesus really blesses you?There is much written about how God or Jesus blesses you when you follow his words,do what he says,and practice good Christian morals.I can't remember reading anything about how God or Jesus blesses you for doing nothing.

I do have know people who say they are Christian and do drugs,get drunk and go whoreing,cause and yell at people,and many other things and I choose not to associate with them.I don't care if they are Christian or not,family members or not.They are a bad influence and avoided.

Concerning the gay issue.I can not think of anything in the last 400 years that has reaped so much hate,dissolve,and bickering than the gay issues we have today in the church.The gays have single handedly split the church right in half(literally).The acceptance of gay ministers in a handful of churches has not only dissolved and broken off millions of members of the congregation for what it belongs.It has also led to a Christian against Christian civil war around the world.Homosexuality is wrong and God spoke so loudly against it he called it a "Abomation".He destroyed a entire city and everyone in it because of it.You will also not find a single shred anywhere in the bible supporting homosexuality.Homosexuals also can not produce babies which would lead to the end of humanity and goes against Gods words "go out and multiply".There is also no way I can imagine homosexuals in heaven.

What would Jesus do about the homosexuals?Same as he did with the woman who nearly was stoned.Go out and sin no more.

Please support anywhere in the Bible that states that he was talking about a 'blind' judgment? anywhere? yep didn't think so.....

More bigotry and hypocrisy here.

Wow. I think the best way to lead a Christian life is not by ignoring Gods laws or condemning others but by carrying yourself as Christ did. I dont think Christ was hateful or divisive, I think the whole point of why God is so great is because of forgiveness of the FACT that we all are sinners. It serves no purpose for a Christian to beat other sinners into the ground. I dont believe homosexuality is right, but that is an action. I do not judge the person just because I have a belief about their action. Only God knows us completely enough to do that.

As far as what type of judgment the bible speaks of,, I dont think anyone can PROVE for sure. But it makes no sense to me that it would only apply to snap judgment. Instead, judging applied to judging souls and people because that is Gods position and not ours. We must have judgement about actions and words to choose for ourselves what to do and what to say. Judge not lest ye be judged , to me, means that I should be conscious of right and wrong behavior but not foolish enough to think I know anyones soul or heart enough to judge the person.

As long as Christians do not try to change the homosexual and make them live an untrue to themselves life in accordance with others judgements everything is alright. Don't spout off about how their lives are wrong and they are sinners and all will be great.

Letting them live judgement free is all that is required for the hoopla to end.

I wouldnt try to CHANGE anyones sexual behavior, I can only try to live by the best example I can. I would never tell anyone their life was wrong, but if asked, I would be honest about whethere their actions or words are wrong. IN this forum, I am posting my opinion in the context of a thread. In life, I know and love many people and ALL of us are sinners. Its what we all have in common. Our words and actions are never without judgment or consequence and I hope that doesnt offend anyone. I treat everyone with respect and I love imperfect people, but I dont feel a need to hide or lie about what sin is when I am asked,,,if I am asked.

Ummm, I'm assuming in the technical sense of a man and man or a woman and woman cannot reproduce is what you're meaning. However, there are plenty of gays/lesbians who can and have reproduced, obviously. I know there are very ardent gays/lesbians who wouldn't be caught dead having sex with a member of the opposite sex, but there are those who have no problems with it on a loose basis, especially if it meant a child of their genetics. Modern science have done wonders for procreation and test-tube babies, which makes it even easier. And there's more then enough people screaming to have children adopted rather then aborted that it's not really a big issue anymore.

msharmony, with all due respect to you and to your beliefs, I find the above post very confusing.

I am not a homosexual as I gather you. When I put myself in your shoes and test drive the 'conduct' you seem to abide by, as you state in your post, there are several contradictions with which I simply could not reconcile my ethical values and principles, and figure I would share those with you.

For example, when you state on the one hand,

'... I would never tell anyone their life was wrong ...',

and then go on to state,

'... I would be honest about whether their actions or words are wrong ...',

while I understand the infamous 'hate the sin love the sinner', and see your words here as a variation on that theme, the sinning judgment simply doesn't hold the road.

Allow me to propose that in order to make your claim that homosexuality is a sin, you must hold the dogma based belief that one is NEVER 'born', so to speak', homosexual, but 'becomes', or is influenced to adopt 'the lifestyle'; a perversion numerous christians have a bad habit of repeating with impunity. In other words, this line of thinking 'allows with impunity', way too many people to judge and condemn their fellow human being, based on a belief!!!

I have beliefs too msharmony, and they are without doubt the foundation of MY life. They allow me to make sense FOR MYSELF, of what would otherwise be a life of total confusion.

But you see msharmony, those beliefs of mine, based on what is considered to be a solid and time tested ethical and moral foundation, CATEGORICALY cannot be imposed on anything, or anyone else then myself. I live by those principles, and part of those principles, is the principle to refrain from IMPOSING my beliefs on others.

While I stand for my beliefs for myself, I grant you msharmony the same privilege, and respect that you may very well have beliefs as you do, and that may very well be DIFFERENT from mine.

Now back to the 'homosexual (vs) sin (vs) christian dogma' situation.
My (personal) beliefs say that homosexuals are 100% human beings, just as heterosexuals are.
I was born heterosexual, and some of my fellow human beings were born homosexuals.

NOTHING WRONG!!! NOTHING SINFUL!!!

As I, they are just as much part, no separation, of OUR human experience. We are all 100%, hetero and homo, legitimate and deserving full fledge human beings. No separate class, or degree of sin, or any other perverted sophism.

That is my belief: NO SIN, NOTHING WRONG, and moreover, nothing to change, or manage, or segregate.

That is my belief, and it is founded on solid ethical and moral principles.

Obviously, your beliefs and mine do not coincide.
Should that be a problem???

Not necessarily!

If you don't impose that belief on anyone else than yourself, we have no problem.

You have the right to any and all the PERSONAL beliefs that you hold.
You do not wish to engage in same sex exchanges, that is good, and it is something you and I share, and are in full agreement upon.
But that is where it ends.

My beliefs, or your beliefs, and their corresponding 'lifestyles' cannot be imposed on someone else's legitimate and perfectly 'life-given' ways.

We have a system of 'law and order' to handle those of us whom transgress what which we collectively and categorically consider to be moral or ethical transgressions.

HOMOSEXUALITY IS NOT ONE OF THOSE TRANSGRESSIONS PROSECUTABLE BY LAW.
There is a sound moral and ethical foundation for such premise.

Church dogma cannot any longer obstinately disregard the higher moral and ethical ground of our day, just because it wants to hold on to a 2000 year old version of what was trying to install itself as the ethical and moral high ground of the time.

HOMOSEXUALS (AS HETERO) ARE TOGETHER 100% HUMAN BEINGS. The 'sin vs sinner' sophism doesn't hold.
There is nothing wrong with the natural condition of homosexuality.
... nothing to prosecute,
... nothing perfect,
... nothing to change.

You see msharmony, this is my belief, and it has the same value as yours. And if there were 100, 1 000, or 1 000 000 of us sharing the same belief, we still couldn't impose it on you.

Homosexuality and heterosexuality have been a full fledge part of humanity since inception. They will keep co-existing naturally as long as our human experience lasts. Homosexuality has not affected the proliferation of the human race in the past and there are no signs to suggest that it will in the future.

Let's move our focus and energy to the real battles!!!
'God' knows there is no shortage of those.

I dunno.


Why is anybody anything?

Oh well, geez thanks for contributing to the conversation! "I dunno"!! I dunno, I doughnut? AAAAAHHHHH, doughnuts.... is there anything a doughnut can't make better?