I don't see where he said anything about banning religion, thought is sounds great to me, even I don't expect that. I would love to see it banned in public places where some christians like to gather for in your face preaching and condemnation feasts, and only practiced in homes and churches. But I am fully aware that that won't happen any time soon.

If he had said, "won't ever happen because the Bill of rights protects religious freedoms", we're not having this conversation. but this respondent's notion of the future is an America where Religious freedoms are restricted by the state.

all it will take is enough people who think that way to get into high office or on the courts, and it;ll happen so fast your head will spin..

the fear is that it already happened. and we've got at least four years to stand against that way of thinking.

if you don't want the president to have a minister speak at his innaguration, take your complaint to him...

where will you stand when peoples of faith are driven underground to worship? standing by, feeding them to lions with those that drove them there?

Time out!!!

If I could only bring myself to believe one sentence, ONE WORD of your post 'beeorganic', I'd be willing to eternally live with the shame of having mascaraded as a 'right-whatever'.

I take it back, there is one sentence in there over which I am torn, and clearly undecided!?!?!?

Eventhough the rest 'mirrors' perfectly, I can't bring myself to believe that you could be a HANNITY fan!!!

I mean all mirror work aside, the whole Hannity fan thing just doesn't wash out.

You can put complete sentences together!
Your thoughts, whether one agrees with you or not, are coherent to a certain extent!
You are capable of sarcasm!!!

It's just a statistical impossibility! Your normal IQ simply washes out everything HANNITY!!!

OK you might have been influenced by the dark side, who knows, cultural up-bringing, and the whole affective dependency thing, but not to the extent of being a HANNITY DIE-HARD!!!

Please tell me it ain't so 'Sean'?!?!?


p.s.: you are aware of mirror I hope!?!?!

Sorry to inform you 'beeorganic' that you are missinformed and I fear for this new tack you are pressing up against.

I have followed these threads for a while now. In addition, I have kept a close eye on FOX news, because I learned from these threads that FOX was the ONLY fair and balanced source of news in the whole world,

... and I must assure you 'beeorganic', that in spite of some 'unfounded critics' (their source wasn't FOX news), the truth has always prevailed in these threads, and 'bush' is reponsible of nothing!!!

The 'right' people, those that have 'FOX' AND 'god' on their side, ESTABLISHED VERY CLEARLY OVER AND ABOVE ALL POSSIBLE (FALSE) INFORMATION TO THE CONTRARY, that 'bush' was repsonsible for none of the things that have taken place during his 8 years in office!

Not his fault period!

According to the 'right' sources (FOX and GOD), it was always something or someone else that was accountable for the unnamable 8 year mess.

I heard Clinton was a big part, and Congress, well now there you go! The right people, righteously, point to the tail-end second mandate 2 years of the Democratic Congress as the cause of the 6 previous years of failures.

And when that didn't wash, the 'right' people righteously came back to Clinton, such a powerful guy, that he ruled the White House throughout the years Bush occupied it it seems, according to the 'right' people's truth (given that FOX and GOD are on their side). What a Bully this Clinton guy! Poor Bush!!!

So, there you have it 'beorganic', whatever 'they' might come up with to blame 'bush',

... 'BUSH HASN'T BEEN RESPONSIBLE FOR ANYTHING ON ANY DAY OF HIS ENTIRE LIFE!'

So as you say, 'what's good for the geese, is good for the gander'!!!

I hope you'll feel relieved that your recent conversion was totally unnecessary, and agree that this 'born again' liberal thread is profoundly obsolete!!!

For your own salvation sake, don't spit on the 'right' people 'beorganic', and do come back to the 'right' flock!!!

Yes why don't we all just buy into media propaganda, subjection, and opinions of the press that never just report the facts but influence the facts with twisted points of view and while we are at why don't we just point out that we were attacked first. We responded and supported that response by a whopping 90% of the people that were led to believe by who (the media)that Iraq was the guilty party oh yes the media.....the media is the crux of all inherent evil so just foolow everything they say as gosepel....allowing them to the public around by the nose, go ahead....its up to you to believe or not believe everything you read and hear....paid for by the politicians in order to sway public view

OK Last try!!!

... or I'll have to ask for research grants!!!

The different theories revisiting 'Newtonian Time' are pretty much collected under 'The theory of IMAGINARY TIME', paradoxically the real one !!!

Little metaphoric tale for starters:

So this is the old ‘clock time’ meets ‘timelessness’ or Imaginary time, at the OK CORRAL!!!

But it’s not as simple as the ‘Newtonian Clock Time Dimension’ gunfight draw out!

You see in the old Newtonian time dimension, ‘timelessness’ would be a seasoned gun fighting, prairies riding cowboy, with a mean look, and slow burning cig hanging out the corner of his sun dried lips.

Well, in the Einsteinian dimension, for most of us, our ‘timeliness’ dualist will seem like a ghost!!!

At first, this will give our John Wayne ‘clock time’ homeboy a false sense of security; no big threat with no opponent in front of you.
… until ‘clock time’ starts experiencing some violent intestinal reactions as though something was literally ‘shooting him up’ form the inside. A sort of Alien ripping out!!!

See!!!

You expect your dualist in front of you, ready to shoot him down.

Instead, IT comes from inside of you, reconfiguring and destroying every internal organ you’ve got,

YOU’RE DEAD IF YOU SHOOT, AND YOU’RE DEAD IF YOU DON’T !!!

The moral of this little invented metaphor is : ‘DON’T WEAR A GUN AROUND YOUR BELT IF IT’S ONLY TO END UP SHOOTING YOURSELF IN THE GUT!!!’

Let's get down to business:

Timelessness or IMAGINARY TIME, paradoxically because it is real (verifiable), but doesn’t in any way shape or form agree with our current conception of time, which of course we ‘know’ to be real, even though it is unverifiable, therefore unreal.

Translation: let’s call the imaginary time (real), to grab your attention, because you hold as real, something that is entirely imaginary!!!

Focusing on the pillars of the time redimensioning would bring Albert Einstein, of course, who gave us, in his later years,

‘… the past, present, and future allexist
simultaneously…’.

Einstein's belief in an undivided solid reality was clear to him, so much so that he completely rejected the separation we experience as the moment of now, the infamous ‘CLOCK TIME’.
He believed there is no true division between past and future. Most everyone knows that Einstein proved that time is relative, not absolute as Newton claimed.

The two most highly recognized physicists since Einstein, Richard Feynman and Stephen Hawking arrived at similar conclusions, and even made dramatic advances toward a timeless perspective of the universe, yet they too were unable to change the temporal mentality ingrained in the mainstream of physics and society. So I don't feel so bad! :)

Following Einstein was the colorful and brilliant IMO Richard Feynman. He’s the one who developed the most effective and explanatory interpretation of quantum mechanics known today as 'Sum over Histories'.

Just as Einstein's own Relativity Theory led Einstein to reject time, Feynman’s Sum over Histories theory gradually led him to describe time simply as a DIRECTION IN SPACE. Nothing else!

What I understand of Feynman’s theory is that it coins the probability of an event, as determined by summing together all the possible histories of that event.
SO, what does that mean? Well, taking a particle moving from point A to B, we have to imagine the particle traveling every possible path, curved paths, oscillating paths, squiggly paths, even backward in time and forward in time paths. When all summed up, the vast majority of all these directions add up to zero, and all that remains is the comparably few paths that abide by the laws and forces of nature. Not bad hey!!!

While I don't get the whole ‘Sum over Histories’ process, the essentisal point doens't get lost on me. I clearly get that the direction of our ordinary clock time is simply a path in space which is more probable than the more exotic directions time might have taken otherwise. Feynman's summing of all possible histories could very well be described as the first timeless description of a multitude of space-time worlds ALL EXISTING SIMULTANEOUSLY.

Now, Stephen Hawking. Got to like this amazing guy. He wrote in ...Cosmology From the Top Down; 'Some people make a great mystery of the multi universe, or the Many-Worlds interpretation of quantum theory, but to me, these are just different expressions of the Feynman path integral.'
So, having a hard time with the mind reorganization of ‘time’??? Not alone!!!

Hawking and James Hartle developed the No Boundary Proposal, a theory which extends other theories such as Sum Over Histories. The no boundary’ proposal is a model of the early universe during the big bang which includes a second reference of time, called Imaginary Time which has no beginning or end. NO BEGINNING! NO END! NO CLOCK NEEDED!

In this mode of time we could in fact reach back and touch the original conditions of the early universe, because they still exist in a common time to all moments.
Isn’t that amazing just grappling with that thought.

Hawking also explains that what we think of as real time, a beginning at the Big Bang, some ten to twenty billion years ago, is incoinceivable in imaginary time where the UNIVERSE SIMPLY EXISTS. Got to love teh guy!!!

And back to my opening paradoxical metaphor. People often think from the tag 'imaginary' that this other mode of time isn’t real. Quite the contrary, clock time could be said to be imaginary compared to this ultimate mode of time, since in imaginary time, our clock time is totally indistinguishable from directions in space. GOT THAT!?!?!

From his most popular book A Brief History of Time, Hawking provides this word image to picture ‘imaginary time’ :
‘One can picture it in the following way. One can think of ordinary, real, time as a horizontal line. On the left, one has the past, and on the right, the future. But there's another kind of time in the vertical direction. This is called imaginary time, because it is not the kind of time we normally experience. But in a sense, it is just as real, as what we call real time.

Of course since the moments of past, present, and future all exist simultaneously in this other mode of time, the duration of each moment of time would seem to be ceaseless and eternal. The existence of the universe in imaginary time doesn’t have a past or a future, instead all times exist in one enormous moment of now-always. Isn’t that amazing, … NOW-ALWAYS!!!

Another jewel I want to share with you from Hawking:
"The boundary condition of the universe is that it has no boundary."
The universe would be completely self-contained and not affected by anything outside itself. It would neither be created nor destroyed. It would just BE according to Hawking's 'Boundary Condition'.
According to Hawking the universe doesn’t have a boundary point where it suddenly begins existing. The first moment isn’t any different than the second in respect to existence. Both moments exist forever in imaginary time. It takes very little reasoning to figure out that if the universe exists in an unseen way without beginning or end, at right angles to regular time, then that reference to time is
simply more elementary and even more real than ordinary clock time.
The term imaginary applies more accurately to our time. Quoting Hawking again: 'This might suggest that the so-called imaginary time is really the real time, and that what we call real time is just a figment of our imaginations. In real time, the universe has a beginning and an end at singularities that form a boundary to spacetime and at which the laws of science break down. But in imaginary time, there are no singularities or boundaries. So maybe what we call imaginary time is really more basic, and what we call real is just an idea that we invent to help us describe what we think the universe is like.

If the universe exists in another time reference where conditions are permanent or static, suddenly it doesn't matter that we humans so convincingly observe a beginning to time, since the imaginary time reference applies regardless of our sense of where we are in time. The universe could be said to exist before our clock time began, and after our clock time ends.

The past and future exist now-always.

Obviously, imaginary time relates directly to existence. Imaginary time relates to the whole, to all that can be imagined. It also easily relates to numbers and ideas and the concepts we think with, which we already sense exist forever.

The only reason this can be so disorienting at first is because we have been trained to think inside a frame where we are splitting time into two separate dimensions.

We are splitting in two, the more common meaning of the word time.
Here, one time dimension is related purely to the existence of each moment, so it is the omni-directional time we exist within.
The other time dimension, the time we measure with clocks, is here limited to change phenomenon experienced by human beings, which is necessarily a construction of many moments in the first dimension bound together in some way that creates a second time dimension. Each moment is necessarily a time frame, which is a sort of fixed pattern of matter and space. Somehow those frames or spaces are fused together, creating a false sense that existence is changing and transforming, when change is actually observed only by whatever moves from one time frame to another.

That's it for me! I moving to the Imaginary time zone!!!

Anyone still there?!?!? Hello!?!?! Anyone?!?!?!