Again, the scripture in question refers to an *act* toks, not a feeling or an attraction. This man has committed no crime you can accuse him of. He has no reason to repent.

I'm sorry, merely saying those feelings are wrong doesn't make them wrong; moreover, you have no scriptural basis for your claim. Perhaps there are some scriptures that condemn man going against the natural use of man and woman, but there is absolutely nothing in the scriptures that condemns homosexual feelings whatsoever.

And define genuine. The love David and Jonathan had for each other is precisely what many of these gay men and women feel for each other, the only difference being the manner in which that love is expressed (although not all that different at times, since those two kissed each other's necks).

You can't tell me that isn't genuine affection, bring me your beliefs and let's reason together, and I'll show you that there's nothing wrong with being attracted to members of your own sex, and that this man has nothing to repent of or feel bad about unless he breaks vows of chastity before marrriage.

I don't know any Catholics that do, but I know a large number of mormons who do. Honestly, I don't think there's anything wrong with those feelings. More importantly and relevantly, I don't think there's anything wrong with the full expression of those feelings in the bonds of matrimony.

How can it be wrong for two people with genuine love for another to express that love physically?

Sigh, okay. Let's look at your comment one piece at a time shall we?

1. 'You've got a thread about how you should always be honest...' Wrong. I never said always be honest, not even the thread title says that. It clearly says it's *better* to be honest to everyone, which implies there are times when it's necessary to lie. And let's be clear here- I'm not talking about the crap that a lot of guys are thinking of when they mention lying. Let me give an example of what I call justified lying- an army is about to destroy your home and all your people but they don't know where to go to find them. They ask you, putting their entire faith in your answer. This is a situation where lying is not only justified, but necessary for the preservation of others. If you're lying just because you're trying to get out of something for yourself, the problem probably lies with *you*. If you're lying to save someone else in the sense previously mentioned, that's a different story.

2. '...get all of the ladies patting you on the back for understanding them so well and end up really saying that you don't date insecure women and you were only talking about the "good" ones anyway...' Huh? For starters, it's not my problem if people agree with me. As for the insecure part- so what? It's not like I angled this statement towards insecure women to begin with, it's a general idea, so I didn't mislead anyone. The idea that a woman is insecure if she asks how she looks though seems misleading to me. Everyone needs validation, and my point is that in this case in can be honestly given. The insecure part is an angle you superimposed onto the concept.

3. 'Your advice is useless.' Yes, it certainly is for those who sit at their computers and just complain about it.

4. 'You're starting off by assuming some perfect ideal' How is the notion of 'two good people trying hard to make a relationship work' a perfect ideal? The very statement suggests the opposite is true. And the idea that people who consistently love each other is a 'perfect ideal' is 21st century crock.

5. 'Get real man and give us some advice about how to relate to women that actually exist outside of the fiction novels you've been reading.' Okay, first of all the books I read are fantastic. Secondly, I didn't take these ideas from the Lord of the Rings trilogy believe it or not. If I did you can bet there'd be a lot more Victorian elements involved, and an angle focused on aesthetics more than relational work.

6. give us some advice about how to relate to women that actually exist outside of the fiction novels you've been reading.

Fine, you asked. Since the statement didn't work for you- here are some practical guidelines-


1. Love is not the most important factor in choosing a partner, it's about who's best for you. That means considering differences, common ground, educational disparities, age disparities, respective life circumstances, and after spending several months together, coming to the decision as to whether or not you want to be with that person, if you're willing to put up with the annoyances and baggage that come with them and love them anyway. Failure to do this is unfair to you and the other person.

2. Don't care what anyone thinks, including attractive girls. NO ARSE KISSING. Believe it or not, this will weed out incompatible people remarkably fast and land you with someone who will actually want to be with you long-term.

3. Don't be ego-centric, or a mooch so to speak. Be a giver in the relationship, or prior friendship. That means giving words of encouragement, going on adventures together, helping her out as needed with no asking, no thought even, of a reward, *listen* carefully to what she's saying and take interest in her ideas her thoughts, her dreams. Ask key questions like, what is your greatest fear? Your greatest source of happiness? Keep your word. But more broadly, give her your time, talents, and all that you can give without expecting a damn thing in return. Being wary that *she* isn't a mooch of course. Have to be wise...

4. When you love someone tell them, and tell them often. Say it to them, show them being caring for them, and by being above all- a trustworthy mate.

5. Don't. Move. Too. Quickly. Ever.

There's some key thoughts. That should be a sound platform for most folks on the dating scene. There's volumes more of course, but those mostly stand on the pillars of basic principles which are mostly represented here.

Cheers. =)

Brilliant. You start a thread about how you should always be honest to everybody, get all of the ladies patting you on the back for understanding them so well and end up really saying that you don't date insecure women and you were only talking about the "good" ones anyway.

Your advice is useless. You're starting off by assuming some perfect ideal and it just boils down to, "Don't lie to women if you don't need to". Get real man and give us some advice about how to relate to women that actually exist outside of the fiction novels you've been reading.

'you just seem to be assuming that all women are good women.'I don't see where I made that assumption...but sure!

To your credit, however, this argument does operate under the assumption that the couple are both good people who are trying, I'll give you that.

As far as women taking advantage of guys, that's a separate issue that I'd treat separately, if at all.

And there absolutely is a guarantee that affection will flow naturally between two people who genuinely care for each other. Have you known two people who were honest, virtuous, served each other, told each other they love one another regularly, put each other first, turned to each other instead of apart over problems, and persistently, consistently were so over time who *didn't* love one another? That seems a bit more far-fetched than my conclusion.

Well I agree that there are situations where lying is necessary in order to preserve a person where the truth might destroy them, but for the specific conundrum brought up in the OP that should never have to be the case.

Wanna watch a horror movie or a John Wayne classic?