Thanks for being thought provoking. And I'm all about reconciliation. :)

We agree that animals exhibit cause and effect. I think all of nature does. I could even be persuaded that animals act with intent. I just don't think they are capable of "reflecting" on the fact that they are participating in cause and effect or acting with with intent. It might sound like I'm trying to weasel out with a minor distinction, but I think it's an important one.

Yes. Sorry, above. Still trying to get the hang of posting here. :)

I didn't mean to imply that I believe we are any better (or worse) than other animals- just different. Also, I don't think we are more evolved than other animals. All species have evolved along their particular paths to wherever they happen to be at the moment. In fact, I don't care much for the term "highly evolved."

I was just pointing out what I believe to be true, that other animals don't have the capacity to consider the possible consequences of various actions and then choose among them before acting. I may be wrong.

I would completely agree that it is impossible for us to thoroughly know what it's like to be a dog or a dolphin, or even each other as humans, as far as that goes. I've brought this topic up with my dog, Abu, on many occasions. He aint talking. :)

A prayer: "God, help me become the person my dog thinks I am." anon

I think both could be said to be models constructed and used in the search for truth. My personal opinion is that problems arise when one invests too much faith in the model its self.

There is a popular Buddhist saying making the rounds these days that I believe applies to both sides. "Take care not to confuse the finger pointing at the moon with the moon."

Heinlein's Lazarus Long, the man I STILL want to be. What dialogue!

I'm getting a funny feeling this response may wind up disjointed because I'm no doubt getting in over my head here. So be it.

First an attempt at clarification: When I spoke of free will as will that exists in an open system, I was referring to a universe in which outcomes are not predetermined. Only the illusion of will can exist in a deterministic or closed one. Should have been clearer.

I do to believe that limits or sets don't have much to do with free will. A question I've been asking myself lately is "does infinite possibility exist within any set of limits." This may be a foolish idea. I tend to think it does, but that conclusion is based more on intuition than logic. To be honest, that could also be said of my position on free will.

I dont think the issues of creation and will are interdependent. Nor do I believe that mental images spring up whole out of nothingness. I think they're synthesized projections cobbled together from scraps of prior "imaginings" and sensory input. When one disregards them, I don't believe they fall into nothingness, but pass from the conscious mind into memory or the unconscious mind, depending on on your point of view. To say that something we cease to consider ceases to exist is a philosophical point of view, I know; I just don't accept it.

Ha- I think maybe I'm just scared of God vaporizing me for lack of humility.

JB and Sky-

What I was trying to express is my difficulty with the term creation. To me the term implies bringing forth something out of nothingness, when what we typically describe as being "created" is actually an original rearrangement of pre-existing components, whether those be paints, sounds, or ideas, or anything else in existence.

Perhaps my definition of creation is too narrow.

I sometimes wonder if what we think of as creation would not be more accurately described as discovery through the willful exploration of the unknown (to the seeker). A musician may come up with a particular arrangement of notes for the first time but that doesn't mean the potential for that arrangement never existed. The potential arrangement was just sitting around waiting for someone to come along, discover it, and manifest it.

Not to split hairs (but of course I'm about to), I think of free will as will that exists in an open system rather than a closed one. I think of the conception of choices and the expression of them as abilities implied by free will.

Yes, reflection. To be able to consider consequences before acting, instead of reacting.

"A dog doesn't fuss and bother on what may be a 'law' and what may not be... a dolphin doesn't give a rats razoo about 'Laws' of anything."

That's true. But a dog or dolphin isn't able to consider things like cause and effect the way we can. It's our blessing and curse.

"I choose to step outside of the arrogance and ego of humankind, and it's history of must bes..and has to bes... and Laws, and garbage that we adhere to."

Actually, in Buddhism (as a way of life, rather than as a religion), this is the critical first step on the path to enlightenment. It's sometimes referred to as "don't know mind." Not easy, for me anyway.

It's only my opinion, but I don't think you should sell yourself short and I'm not just blowing smoke up your ass- those are valid and insightful viewpoints.

>>>
So how can you type with such absolutes?

How can you be so sure...your way... the arrival you came to...is the ONLY one?

( The attitude is of frustration... just kick me up the arse, and poke fun of me... I do..wink )
flowerforyou

I think a persons strength of conviction varies according to personality. My own is like tissue paper on all but a few issues. After expressing an opinion, which I think much of this stuff is, I'll often ask the the reader not to take what I say too seriously. God knows I don't. Still, you have to admit, ya gotta stand somewhere.

>>>Hey, I wanted a bicycle that year – and it was me or you

*grinning like a mule eating briars*

Sorry I wasn't clearer. That was an attempt at wry humor, which I keep forgetting doesn't work so damn good on the internets. Or perhaps what a friend of mine insists on is true. That I'm simply not funny. Bastard!

I'm the one that believes that we are tied together, that actions I take now not only have an effect on my future circumstance but, because(there's that cause word again), because I'm not operating in a vacuum, my actions will have an effect on those around me as well. Thing is , I believe that "around me" extends throughout the universe. The stone in the pond deal.

Of course, I'm not omnipotent (though I may think I am at times). That really WOULD be a heavy responsibility. All other prior causes (that's a ****-load of stones), in addition to my "creations" are shaping my current circumstance, which influences my next action , etc.

Note that I said influence rather than determine. I believe that there exists some teensy tiny sliver of reality in which we can make our will manifest and influence future outcomes. I choose to believe this, although the arguments are just as convincing on the other side, for the same reason that C. S. Lewis expressed in one of his books, probably "Mere Christianity." That is, our actions will eternally reverberate so we might want to consider things like ethics and so on and not abdicate our responsibilities to fate. "Sorry teacher, the universe ate my homework."

I know some people think there's a randomness factor thrown in there just to keep things interesting; perhaps it's even been proven. If so, I'm choosing not to believe it, just because I can. I'll have my universe nicely ordered, thank you. And with a side order of bacon.

BTW: Sky seems to be another one of the free-willlers on here. I'm blamin' him for me not getting that pony when I was eleven. Bastard!

And the situation that I am in now is because of the causes that YOU created in my past, if you believe that you, I, and everything else is tied together in any way. Pretty heavy responsibility, but there you go.

"Once more, the world was spinning in greased grooves."

Cannery Row

Q: "Have you met my daughter, Mr. Marlow?"

A: "Yeah. She was trying to sit in my lap while I was standing up."

The Big Sleep

also: dyin' aint much of a livin