Topic: Is the Universe a Phantasm?
ThomasJB's photo
Sat 04/25/09 09:11 PM

In 1982 a remarkable event took place. At the University of Paris a research team led by physicist Alain Aspect performed what may turn out to be one of the most important experiments of the 20th century. You did not hear about it on the evening news. In fact, unless you are in the habit of reading scientific journals you probably have never even heard Aspect's name, though there are some who believe his discovery may change the face of science.

Aspect and his team discovered that under certain circumstances subatomic particles such as electrons are able to instantaneously communicate with each other regardless of the distance separating them. It doesn't matter whether they are 10 feet or 10 billion miles apart. Somehow each particle always seems to know what the other is doing. The problem with this feat is that it violates Einstein's long-held tenet that no communication can travel faster than the speed of light. Since traveling faster than the speed of light is tantamount to breaking the time barrier, this daunting prospect has caused some physicists to try to come up with elaborate ways to explain away Aspect's findings. But it has inspired others to offer even more radical explanations.

University of London physicist David Bohm, for example, believes Aspect's findings imply that objective reality does not exist, that despite its apparent solidity the universe is at heart a phantasm, a gigantic and splendidly detailed hologram. . . .

Bohm believes the reason subatomic particles are able to remain in contact with one another regardless of the distance separating them is not because they are sending some sort of mysterious signal back and forth, but because their separateness is an illusion. He argues that at some deeper level of reality such particles are not individual entities, but are actually extensions of the same fundamental something. . . .

Bohm offers the following illustration. Imagine an aquarium containing a fish. Imagine also that you are unable to see the aquarium directly and your knowledge about it and what it contains comes from two television cameras, one directed at the aquarium's front and the other directed at its side. As you stare at the two television monitors, you might assume that the fish on each of the screens are separate entities. After all, because the cameras are set at different angles, each of the images will be slightly different. But as you continue to watch the two fish, you will eventually become aware that there is a certain relationship between them. When one turns, the other also makes a slightly different but corresponding turn; when one faces the front, the other always faces toward the side. If you remain unaware of the full scope of the situation, you might even conclude that the fish must be instantaneously communicating with one another, but this is clearly not the case.

This, says Bohm, is precisely what is going on between the subatomic particles in Aspect's experiment. According to Bohm, the apparent faster-than-light connection between subatomic particles is really telling us that there is a deeper level of reality we are not privy to, a more complex dimension beyond our own that is analogous to the aquarium. And, he adds, we view objects such as subatomic particles as separate from one another because we are seeing only a portion of their reality. Such particles are not separate "parts", but facets of a deeper and more underlying unity that is ultimately as holographic and indivisible as the previously mentioned rose. And since everything in physical reality is comprised of these "eidolons", the universe is itself a projection, a hologram. . . .

http://twm.co.nz/hologram.html

MirrorMirror's photo
Sat 04/25/09 10:52 PM
:smile: Yes, we live in a holographic reality:smile:

creativesoul's photo
Sat 04/25/09 11:52 PM
laugh

Brains in a vat?

ThomasJB's photo
Sun 04/26/09 08:41 AM

laugh

Brains in a vat?


Do you have an alternative explanation for quantum entanglement?

Abracadabra's photo
Sun 04/26/09 10:47 AM
Yes, this is also known as the "Hidden Variables Interpretation" of Quantum Mechanics. It's actually the Interpretation that I favor.

Although, in many ways it's not really different from the Copenhagen Interpretation. It's just a different way of looking at it.

The Copenhagen Interpertation accepts Einstiens posutlate that no communication can travel faster than the speed of life. So with that premise in place, it is forced to accept randomness.

The Hidden Variables Interpretation forfeits the premise that no communication can take place faster than the speed of light, and thefore claims to salavage "cause and effect" or determinism.

However, there's a slight ripple in the Hidden Variables Intepretation, and that is the very concept of time itself.

Once locality has been forfeited then time is no longer a valid concept. Or to put this another way, it becomes meaningless to speak in terms of "before or after", and thus the very notion of "cause and effect" also becomes meaningless - THUS - even the Hidden Variables Interpretation ulimately must accept randomness as the driving principle of the universe.

So in truth the Copenhagen Interepretation and the Hidden Variables Interpretation are utlimately saying the same things from different vantage points.

In fact, for anyone interested in these things I highly recommend The Teaching Company course entitled "Quantum Mechanics: The Physics of The Microscopic World" taught by Ben Schumacher.

You can find the course here:

http://www.teach12.com/ttcx/CourseDescLong2.aspx?cid=1240

DON'T PAY $255 for IT!

Send them an EMAIL and ask them to notify you the next time the course goes on sale! Almost ALL of their courses go on sale for $69 a couple of times each year.

You might have to wait a few months but you can get it for about $70 wich is well worth it!

It's a really great course, I just finished watching it myself. Near the end he describes the three most popular interpretations of the QM. The Copenhagan Interpretation, the Hidden Variable Interepretation, and the Many Worlds Interpretation. He also explains how most other interpretations can ultimately be reduced to one of these basic three.

Added Note:

Don't forget to check local libraries as they may have this course! Or they may even be able to get it for you through Interlibrary loan!

Netflix sometimes carries The Teaching Company Courses too, but they typically only rent you one lecture at a time, so that would be 24 rentals total to see the whole course. :wink:

I highly recommend this for you Michael, simply because I'm sure you'll find it fascinating.

Dr. Schumacher covers the standard physics of QM in a fair amount of detail with much clairty in the first 3/4 of the course. The last quarter he speaks on the topic of Quantum Information, and Quantum Computing that is a bit more abstract and I'm sure you would find it thoroughly fascinating.

This is a must watch course for anyone who is interested in QM. No math required, although he does spend two lectures on quantum probabilies and quantum spin that are a tab bit mathematical. He steers clear of imaginary numbers, which was a bit of a disapointment for me personally because that's where the magick takes place.

In any case, it's a great course on QM without the math.

Well, there's some binary math in the part about Quantum Information too, but it's pretty easy. He talks about bit, qubits, and ebits. And ebit is a pair of entangled particles that are treated as a single quantum system in Quantum Mechanics.

In fact, they act like a single particle even when they are separated by large distances in actuality. These are experimentally verifed facts. In fact, as Schumacher points out, they actually USE these things in modern technologies!

Quantum Information is his specialty. :wink:

Check the libraries! Or possibly on Netflix! I don't know if they have this one on Netflix yet or not.

Or BEG the Teaching Company to sell you one at the sale price. laugh

Or just wait until it goes on sale. That'll give you time to do some fund raising for the 70 bucks. bigsmile

creativesoul's photo
Sun 04/26/09 12:08 PM
Do you have an alternative explanation for quantum entanglement?


I am sort of a reductionist... for the time being. :wink:

I do not know enough about it.

flowerforyou

ThomasJB's photo
Sun 04/26/09 12:48 PM

Yes, this is also known as the "Hidden Variables Interpretation" of Quantum Mechanics. It's actually the Interpretation that I favor.

Although, in many ways it's not really different from the Copenhagen Interpretation. It's just a different way of looking at it.

The Copenhagen Interpertation accepts Einstiens posutlate that no communication can travel faster than the speed of life. So with that premise in place, it is forced to accept randomness.

The Hidden Variables Interpretation forfeits the premise that no communication can take place faster than the speed of light, and thefore claims to salavage "cause and effect" or determinism.

However, there's a slight ripple in the Hidden Variables Intepretation, and that is the very concept of time itself.

Once locality has been forfeited then time is no longer a valid concept. Or to put this another way, it becomes meaningless to speak in terms of "before or after", and thus the very notion of "cause and effect" also becomes meaningless - THUS - even the Hidden Variables Interpretation ulimately must accept randomness as the driving principle of the universe.

So in truth the Copenhagen Interepretation and the Hidden Variables Interpretation are utlimately saying the same things from different vantage points.

In fact, for anyone interested in these things I highly recommend The Teaching Company course entitled "Quantum Mechanics: The Physics of The Microscopic World" taught by Ben Schumacher.

You can find the course here:

http://www.teach12.com/ttcx/CourseDescLong2.aspx?cid=1240

DON'T PAY $255 for IT!

Send them an EMAIL and ask them to notify you the next time the course goes on sale! Almost ALL of their courses go on sale for $69 a couple of times each year.

You might have to wait a few months but you can get it for about $70 wich is well worth it!

It's a really great course, I just finished watching it myself. Near the end he describes the three most popular interpretations of the QM. The Copenhagan Interpretation, the Hidden Variable Interepretation, and the Many Worlds Interpretation. He also explains how most other interpretations can ultimately be reduced to one of these basic three.

Added Note:

Don't forget to check local libraries as they may have this course! Or they may even be able to get it for you through Interlibrary loan!

Netflix sometimes carries The Teaching Company Courses too, but they typically only rent you one lecture at a time, so that would be 24 rentals total to see the whole course. :wink:

I highly recommend this for you Michael, simply because I'm sure you'll find it fascinating.

Dr. Schumacher covers the standard physics of QM in a fair amount of detail with much clairty in the first 3/4 of the course. The last quarter he speaks on the topic of Quantum Information, and Quantum Computing that is a bit more abstract and I'm sure you would find it thoroughly fascinating.

This is a must watch course for anyone who is interested in QM. No math required, although he does spend two lectures on quantum probabilies and quantum spin that are a tab bit mathematical. He steers clear of imaginary numbers, which was a bit of a disapointment for me personally because that's where the magick takes place.

In any case, it's a great course on QM without the math.

Well, there's some binary math in the part about Quantum Information too, but it's pretty easy. He talks about bit, qubits, and ebits. And ebit is a pair of entangled particles that are treated as a single quantum system in Quantum Mechanics.

In fact, they act like a single particle even when they are separated by large distances in actuality. These are experimentally verifed facts. In fact, as Schumacher points out, they actually USE these things in modern technologies!

Quantum Information is his specialty. :wink:

Check the libraries! Or possibly on Netflix! I don't know if they have this one on Netflix yet or not.

Or BEG the Teaching Company to sell you one at the sale price. laugh

Or just wait until it goes on sale. That'll give you time to do some fund raising for the 70 bucks. bigsmile



To sum up Occam's razor, "The simplest explanation is usually the best one." Why can we not simply see this as evidence that the speed of light is not a cosmic speed barrier?

Abracadabra's photo
Sun 04/26/09 01:17 PM

To sum up Occam's razor, "The simplest explanation is usually the best one." Why can we not simply see this as evidence that the speed of light is not a cosmic speed barrier?


Why would that be any simpler than to just accept that at a fundamental level the universe truly is random?

Both conclusions are equally simple.

In fact, I would hold that in some ways the acceptance of randomness is actually the simpler explanation.

Once we allow that light is not a cosmic speed barrier, then we have complex paradoxes concerning both the concept of time, and the concept of "cause and effect".

So in a very real sense, accepting non-locality is a bit more complex than to simply accept that the unvierse has a random aspect.

Although, I'm not sure of pure randomness alone can account for quantum entanglement. It seems to me that this is a puzzle that requires something more.

In fact, I'm actually a proponent of the Hidden Variable Interprestion to be honest about it. But like I say, once you give up locality, you also give up causality as well. At least based on restrictions of 'before/after', because you're basically giving up that distinction as soon as you give up the barrier of the speed of light.

Understanding Relativity is paramount in this as well, and in truth I don't personally believe that anyone truly understands relativity in terms of actuality. Not even Einstein, nor Minkowski, nor anyone else.

In fact, Paul Davies addressed this issue in his book, "About Time". That's an older book that came out in the 60's or 70
s I think. I'm not sure of the actual date he wrote it. It may have been written as early as the 50's.

In any case, Davies speaks to the issue of time. He points out that there must be two different kinds of time. One kind is the malleable aspect of time as once attribute of spacetime, but then there must also be another more pure nature of time that may not even flow at all. In other words, the very concept of a primoral and ever-changing now can be thought of as a form of time which which the maleable time of spacetime unfolds.

I'm in agreement with Davies on this point. Unfortunately I haven't yet been able to pin it down mathematically.

Speaking of mathematics. Current modern formal mathematics is actually incorrect and flawed as a model for the quantitative nature of this quantum universe that we have observed thus far.

I keep threating to write a book on that topic but sadly I'm more of a procrastinator than a writer. laugh


ThomasJB's photo
Sun 04/26/09 01:28 PM
So two entangled particle just randomly act in concert every time we observe them? Their interactions are both predictable and measurable; doesn't discount randomness?

Pete026's photo
Sun 04/26/09 03:49 PM
Very interesting stuff, thanks drinker

creativesoul's photo
Sun 04/26/09 08:19 PM
So two entangled particle just randomly act in concert every time we observe them? Their interactions are both predictable and measurable; doesn't discount randomness?


Of course that argument discounts randomness as an explanation of quantum entanglement, but was it ever considered to be one to begin with?

From my perspective it is a case of

Apples and oranges...

or should we say...

Probability and interconnectedness...

:wink:

creativesoul's photo
Sun 04/26/09 08:21 PM
By the way, I am not so fond of our understanding of electromagnetic radiation anyway...

laugh

ThomasJB's photo
Sun 04/26/09 08:31 PM
Quantum mechanics is trip! If Lewis Carrol had understood it, he's of surely incorporated it in Alice's adventures.