I have been watching these forums very closely and they brought up a
question in me. When I hear the word Christianity, immediately two
pictures come to mind.

#1 in a figure with outstretched hands, reaching out to everything
around it and embracing everything with love.

#2 is a figure that keeps it's arms close to the body, with a shield
around it, shutting everything out.

How comes that people, that at least by name, share the same religion
can bring two so different pictures up.

Which one is the proper picture, meaning, which one paints
Christianity as it is meant to be?

good morning andrea
The picture of love.
BUt we are humans, and sometimes we don't love to the fullest, and then
is when u see the other picture.

its #1 and what walker said .i deal with it everyday

Hmmm I guess when I hear the word Christianity I think of hatred and
Hitler. And people who push there religion on other people.

I think it's completely subjective. Some Christians are loving, but
appear to not be, because of how the listener receives their message.
To me, it's a loving act for someone who believes in eternal
consequences, to warn others knowing full well that most of people who
hear the message will be infuriated. I get so much hate directed at me
and it's really frustrating, because I'm trying to warn people I love
about someone terrible that may await them.

It's like Paul taught: He would say "Of sinners, I am the first" meaning
I'm the worst sinner out here. But then he would explain that everyone
was a sinner and God has decreed that all sinners deserve eternal
punishment.

Abra says that God (and by association Christians) is "obcessed with sin
and salvation" and that's simply not true. God wants us to understand
that he can't keep around someone who loves sin. If you hate sin and
love God, then the price for your salvation is paid. In heaven, there
will be no temptations beyond your own will. If your will is set to
pleasing God, then you will remain sinless in Heaven. But if your heart
loves sin, you would sin in heaven and that isn't acceptable to God.
Heaven is meant to be perfect and sinless for everyone who lives there.
This universe was cursed by the sins of two people, but God will do away
with this universe and create another one, which will be sinless
forever. We are being tested, pass/fail to see if we deserve a perfect
place to live and eternal life. Sin I want to see all of you there, I
have to continue speaking about the law and damnation. I'm sorry if
this is offensive or makes me appear hatefilled, but I do it out of
love.

God bless you.

I was brought up in a Catholic household. My mother was raised Catholic,
my father Protestant. I went to Catholic elementry school for 8 years of
my schooling. I had to go to church every Sunday and had to bring a note
to the nuns on Monday morning f I was not able to attend. What I
remmeber most about those days was....the church was ALWAYS looking for
money. They sent the collect baskets around twice during mass. Before I
was married in the Catholic church, they told me how much to contribute
for my pre-cana classes. The same thing happened when I was married
there, and when my sons were Christened. When did a religion become a
money making scheme...I will never know. It makes me sad....just
thinking about it to tell you the truth.

I hug trees and love looking at the four tomato plants growing that I
planted earlier this year. I hug my two little dogs and they both lick
my hands. At my NA meetings we all end with the group hug. Some of us
get discontented with just the group hug and pair off in twos and hug
some more.

Our meetings can be fun. The other day this woman who usually hugs me
couldn't be there so she told her husband to give me a hug but all he
gave me was a lousy handshake. I thought about telling her that he
didn't give me the hug that she told him to give me but instead I just
forgave him.

Invisible, I see only one picture, the first one. However, within that
group with arms outstretched, I see two different people. The ones
who's arms are stretched up to heaven and those whose arms are stretched
in front of them, as if to encompass the world.

They are both love, but where the love is directed is what makes a
difference within the group.

Spider wrote:
“Abra says that God (and by association Christians) is "obcessed with
sin and salvation" and that's simply not true.”

I need to comment on this statement that spider made concerning my
position. My intention is not to argue with Spider, but rather to
clarify where he misunderstands my view.

First off, I do not say that “God” is obsessed with sin an salvation,
but rather that the Christian religion paints a picture of such a God.
This is extremely differnet than how Spider phrases it, because the way
Spider phrases it, it appears that the God of the Christians actually
exists and that I am stating something about this real entity.

Secondly, his statement “and by association Christians” is also
misleading. Many so-called Christians have vastly differnet
interpretations of the Christian religion. Many of them actually reject
quite a few things that are stated in the Bible. In this modern era,
individuals who call themselves ‘Christians’ often aren’t even fully
aware of what the Bible actually has to say. They simply downplay what
they prefer not to believe and put emphasis on what they’d like to
believe. It’s a well known fact that Christians across the board do
NOT agree with each other’s interpretations. In fact, there are more
different sects of Christian religion today than all other religions
combined.

However, the bottom line is that the Bible begins immediately with the
original sin of Adam and Eve. Stories all through the Bible are stories
of morality, and parables of what is and isn’t considered to be sinful.
The God depicted in the Bible has displayed his wrath against sinful
humans all the way though the book in places like Babel, Sodom and
Gomorrah, and with the great flood. The stories are constantly about
the sinful nature of humans and how angry god becomes with this.

Finally, God sends his only begotten son to pay for the sins of man.
This is, in fact, the central theme of Christianity. It is said that
all men are sinners, and now the only pathway to God is via repentance
and acceptance of Christ as your lord and ‘savior’ from sin!

How can anyone say that this religion isn’t obsessed with sin and
salvation? This is basically the entire theme of the Bible, and in
Christianity in culminates with a savior that comes to save mankind from
sin, and states that repentance to, and acceptance of, this savior, is
the ONLY way to the father.

These are the foundations of Christianity. How can anyone deny this?

Where is the pathway to God in this religion where God is standing with
outstretched arms willing to embrace a non-sinning loving person?

There isn’t any. Everyone is considered to be a sinner. The ONLY way to
God is through salvation. You go to this God groveling for forgiveness
as a guilty sinner, or you don’t get there. Period Amen.

Where am I wrong?

Show me the pathway in Christianity where you can go to God with love in
your heart, and with pride in your achievements, and stand tall on your
own two feet to embrace a loving father who is proud of the fact that
you did the very best that you could do.

There isn’t any such pathway to God in Christianity. The ONLY pathway
to God in Christianity is through salvation. You can only go to this
God with guilt in your heart as a confessed sinner. This religion
FORCES everyone to be a sinner. The religion is obsessed with sin!

If I’m wrong, please correct me. Show me the pathway to God within
Christianity that doesn't require salvation.

Abracadabra,

God hates sin, so he wants us to hate sin. It's not that God is
"obcessed with sin and salvation", it's about LOVE. God wants us to
love Him, so He gave us freewill. God loves us, but if we love sin, God
knows we will never serve Him. If we won't serve God, then we have no
place in a perfect universe, so we can't enter the new Earth or the new
Heaven. God gave us a way to free ourselves from sin: Jesus Christ.
You are looking at the issue from the wrong perspective. Yes, sin is a
problem, but God forgives those who admit they are a sinner and repent.
The Bible records God forgiving sinners again and again. For example:
Jonah refused to serve God and tried to run away, because God was too
forgiving for Jonah's tastes.

Now you reject concepts like sin and salvation, fine. But I'm offering
the Christian perspective. Everyone is a sinner, Christianity just
encourages believers to admit that. Christianity is obcessed with love,
a love so great that God sent His perfect Son to die, so that we could
be with Them. God has such great love for us, that He allows all of us
sinners to live long lives, in the hopes that our hearts will turn to
God. God's love is perfect and unconditional, the only question is do
we love God enough to deserve the gifts He wants to give us?

ok, can we move slowly back to the topic now?

Invisible wrote:
“ok, can we move slowly back to the topic now?”

Well, my original comments were on topic I thought.

You spoke about a picture of God as having either arms outstretched in a
gesture of love, or crossed in a gesture of non-acceptance and then
asked, “Which one is the proper picture, meaning, which one paints
Christianity as it is meant to be?

My point was that, from my view, God necessarily has his arms crossed in
a gesture of non-acceptance until AFTER we have come to him in guilt
with repentance. Only then will the arms be opened in a gesture of
love.

So my original post was indeed addressing your topic I thought.

Abra, I was actually talking about Christianity as such, as a religion,
not about God.
We both know that God is love itself, so I couldn't have talked about
Him.
I'm talking about Christianity and the way Christians are painting the
picture of their religion in my head.

Abra;

I think that you've essentially hit the essence of Christianity -
except for the "grovelling" reference. One need not grovel - only face
the truth. And by the way - do you know of anyone who has not sinned?
When confronted with the question: "Are you a sinner?" - what is your
response. In the "2 picture" scenario, it is the response of "Yes, I
am" that gets God with open arms. But to respond "No - I'm not" is to
be in a state of denial - and the crossed arm image, is God simply
awaiting reality to set in.

"Hmmm I guess when I hear the word Christianity I think of hatred and
Hitler. And people who push there religion on other people."

Why would you think that? The only connection Hitler had to
Christianity was his obsession with obtaining the holy artifacts of the
Spear of Destiny, and the Holy Grail. Other than his rounding up
Christians and shipping them off to concentration camps, what other
association do you think he had?

"Abra, I was actually talking about Christianity as such, as a religion,
not about God."

That what I was trying to say too. But isn't a religion really nothing
more than a 'description' of a god and what god wants?

None of my comments would be about god as I know god because I don't
believe in Christianity in the first place. However, I have been
exposed to it quite profoundly. So all of my comments on Christianity
are indeed comments about a religion, not about god. But like I say,
the religion is a dipiction of a god is it not?

Eljay wrote:
“And by the way - do you know of anyone who has not sinned?”

Not by the Christian definition of sin. That would be impossible
because according to that definition we are born with sin. How can
anyone deny that they are a sinner by that definition?

To me it seems like the difference between 'who' we are and who we
'think' we are.

One view is an outpouring of the love that is the 'who' of us.

The other is the personality masks we wear to define the who we 'think'
we are.

It is interesting to say the least...

Invisible writes:

"#1 in a figure with outstretched hands, reaching out to everything
around it and embracing everything with love.

#2 is a figure that keeps it's arms close to the body, with a shield
around it, shutting everything out.

How comes that people, that at least by name, share the same religion
can bring two so different pictures up.

Which one is the proper picture, meaning, which one paints
Christianity as it is meant to be? "

Both and neither. It's like an M.C. Escher print than can sometimes make
your head hurt trying to figure it out. (See: Ascending and Descending).

Better yet, think xenophobia, where birds of the same feather nest
together, but feel a need to put a bell on the cat. So, it's number one
if you have the right plummage, and the latter if you are of a different
theological 'nationality'.

-Kerry O.