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Topic: Creation vs. Evolution.
howzityoume Joined Mon 12/19/11 Posts: 149	Fri 05/04/12 10:38 AM
I really don't even understand how creationism is even a thought,i thought we were adults and can have some kind of rational ideas on how things came to be,but to claim some mythical Zeus like wanna be figure poofed everything into existance in 6 days is far from rational thinking.If anything it's a funny joke. Evolutionists also believe in miraculous processes. 1) The spontaeous creation of matter from nothing. 2) The spontaneous creation of DNA, the smallest observed is over 500000 base pairs long, how did it get there? 3) Favourable increases in the DNA length from less than 1 million base pairs to organisms of over 150 billion base pairs. It takes an extreme faith to believe in all these processes that are never observed in reality. As unbelieveable as the thought of an eternal loving all-powerful being is, the alternatives are also unbelieveable. If you take a perfectly scientific approach, I believe the balance of evidence points to a creator, that is how little actual evidence there is for beneficial DNA lengthening on which the whole concept of evolving is based.

mightymoe Joined Sun 11/19/06 Posts: 37362	Fri 05/04/12 11:08 AM
I really don't even understand how creationism is even a thought,i thought we were adults and can have some kind of rational ideas on how things came to be,but to claim some mythical Zeus like wanna be figure poofed everything into existance in 6 days is far from rational thinking.If anything it's a funny joke. Evolutionists also believe in miraculous processes. 1) The spontaeous creation of matter from nothing. 2) The spontaneous creation of DNA, the smallest observed is over 500000 base pairs long, how did it get there? 3) Favourable increases in the DNA length from less than 1 million base pairs to organisms of over 150 billion base pairs. It takes an extreme faith to believe in all these processes that are never observed in reality. As unbelieveable as the thought of an eternal loving all-powerful being is, the alternatives are also unbelieveable. If you take a perfectly scientific approach, I believe the balance of evidence points to a creator, that is how little actual evidence there is for beneficial DNA lengthening on which the whole concept of evolving is based. maybe because it(dna) is changing instead of lengthening? there is no DNA available from fossils, except maybe some from insects trapped in amber. DNA science is about 20-30 years old, and we only get DNA from the last 5000 years. in a world that is 4.5 billion years old, 5000 years is basically nothing.

Bushidobillyclub Joined Fri 05/11/07 Posts: 5689	Fri 05/04/12 11:53 AM
I really don't even understand how creationism is even a thought,i thought we were adults and can have some kind of rational ideas on how things came to be,but to claim some mythical Zeus like wanna be figure poofed everything into existance in 6 days is far from rational thinking.If anything it's a funny joke. Evolutionists also believe in miraculous processes. 1) The spontaeous creation of matter from nothing. 2) The spontaneous creation of DNA, the smallest observed is over 500000 base pairs long, how did it get there? 3) Favourable increases in the DNA length from less than 1 million base pairs to organisms of over 150 billion base pairs. It takes an extreme faith to believe in all these processes that are never observed in reality. As unbelieveable as the thought of an eternal loving all-powerful being is, the alternatives are also unbelieveable. If you take a perfectly scientific approach, I believe the balance of evidence points to a creator, that is how little actual evidence there is for beneficial DNA lengthening on which the whole concept of evolving is based. Ohhhh PAAALEASE. Your straw man is frightfully obvious. You preset a false dichotomy and confuse abiogenesis for evolution, and pretend that we have no empirical evidence, nor observations.

howzityoume Joined Mon 12/19/11 Posts: 149	Fri 05/04/12 11:24 PM Edited by howzityoume on Fri 05/04/12 11:26 PM
Ohhhh PAAALEASE. Your straw man is frightfully obvious. You preset a false dichotomy and confuse abiogenesis for evolution, and pretend that we have no empirical evidence, nor observations RKISIT presented himself as an atheist and an evolutionist, my arguments were related to him being an atheist and so you are correct to point out my error in semantics, let me then repeat my point with the more correct semantic wording which is important to you: ATHEISTS also believe in miraculous processes. 1) The spontaeous creation of matter from nothing. 2) The spontaneous creation of DNA, the smallest observed is over 500000 base pairs long, how did it get there? 3) Favourable increases in the DNA length from less than 1 million base pairs to organisms of over 150 billion base pairs. It takes an extreme faith to believe in all these processes that are never observed in reality. As unbelieveable as the thought of an eternal loving all-powerful being is, the alternatives are also unbelieveable. If you take a perfectly scientific approach, I believe the balance of evidence points to a creator, that is how little actual evidence there is for beneficial DNA lengthening on which the whole concept of evolving is based. Now you also point out a strawman argument? Could you tell me where? Also where is your proof that DNA can lengthen in a beneficiial manner to an organism and to such an extent that it would result in natural selection of the mutated organism? Without that proof you do not have any evidence for evolution as an explanation for the appearance of modern advanced life-forms. Its just an hypothesis, let's say an interesting idea without any backup.

howzityoume Joined Mon 12/19/11 Posts: 149	Fri 05/04/12 11:40 PM Edited by howzityoume on Fri 05/04/12 11:50 PM
maybe because it(dna) is changing instead of lengthening? there is no DNA available from fossils, except maybe some from insects trapped in amber. DNA science is about 20-30 years old, and we only get DNA from the last 5000 years. in a world that is 4.5 billion years old, 5000 years is basically nothing. According to evolution, DNA has lengthened in some organisms. Some organisms have stayed the same length and yet evolved within their gene pool without the requirement for mutation. I do not dispute this type of evolving. This could explain the variety of dogs, I'm sure that you can get a lot of varieties and even new species from evolving within a species' gene pool. The alternative that an organism of about 32000 useful functional genes containing about 3 billion base pairs spontaneously appeared is statistically impossible and also a completely different theory to evolution which assumes an evolving and increasing complexity over time. To explain some modern organisms, evolution requires significant beneficial increases to the genome length which have never been observed in nature. It is thus merely an interesting idea, no more scientific than that.

RKISIT Joined Tue 01/08/08 Posts: 16721	Sat 05/05/12 05:07 AM
Ohhhh PAAALEASE. Your straw man is frightfully obvious. You preset a false dichotomy and confuse abiogenesis for evolution, and pretend that we have no empirical evidence, nor observations RKISIT presented himself as an atheist and an evolutionist, my arguments were related to him being an atheist and so you are correct to point out my error in semantics, let me then repeat my point with the more correct semantic wording which is important to you: ATHEISTS also believe in miraculous processes. 1) The spontaeous creation of matter from nothing. 2) The spontaneous creation of DNA, the smallest observed is over 500000 base pairs long, how did it get there? 3) Favourable increases in the DNA length from less than 1 million base pairs to organisms of over 150 billion base pairs. It takes an extreme faith to believe in all these processes that are never observed in reality. As unbelieveable as the thought of an eternal loving all-powerful being is, the alternatives are also unbelieveable. If you take a perfectly scientific approach, I believe the balance of evidence points to a creator, that is how little actual evidence there is for beneficial DNA lengthening on which the whole concept of evolving is based. Now you also point out a strawman argument? Could you tell me where? Also where is your proof that DNA can lengthen in a beneficiial manner to an organism and to such an extent that it would result in natural selection of the mutated organism? Without that proof you do not have any evidence for evolution as an explanation for the appearance of modern advanced life-forms. Its just an hypothesis, let's say an interesting idea without any backup. Howzit you also have to realize theres the question of "How did the creator evolve into existance?"Also other than thousands of year old scriptures that have been translated and copied by humans which leads to errors what evidence is their of a divine being other than those scriptures. So to say a creator has always existed is no different than saying matter and antimatter has always existed.

RKISIT Joined Tue 01/08/08 Posts: 16721	Sat 05/05/12 05:29 AM
As for your DNA thingy,lets take a look the DNA bonds are connected by hydrogen which is on this planet hell the sun is mostly hydrogen.Now lets go with one of the 4 chemicals Adenine which is B4 and that is contained in food we eat so as humans evolved they changed eating habits which in return changed the appearance.In other words if you eat to much fatty foods you evolve into a fat person.But what i mentioned before the evolving of humans take a longer time to happen unlike getting fat. So to answer your question thats where the chemicals and elements came from the earths own elements that make the chemicals.People seem to forget our planet is one big chemistry set.

Spidercmb Joined Fri 04/27/07 Posts: 13137	Sat 05/05/12 07:09 AM
Howzit you also have to realize theres the question of "How did the creator evolve into existance?"Also other than thousands of year old scriptures that have been translated and copied by humans which leads to errors what evidence is their of a divine being other than those scriptures. So to say a creator has always existed is no different than saying matter and antimatter has always existed. It is different. We know that matter is not eternal. Eventually, all matter will be turned into entropy. God is beyond our knowledge or comprehension. God is not composed of matter or limited by time. God is outside the human experience and it is therefore plausible for an eternal God to exist. For an "eternal matter" to exist, it would have to go against known science, making it far less plausible.

howzityoume Joined Mon 12/19/11 Posts: 149	Sat 05/05/12 07:12 AM
Howzit you also have to realize theres the question of "How did the creator evolve into existance?"Also other than thousands of year old scriptures that have been translated and copied by humans which leads to errors what evidence is their of a divine being other than those scriptures. I'm happy with those scriptures and personal experience and other people's testimonies as enough for me. Daniel 11:1-35 has a very detailed sequence of events written hundredds of years before they were fulfilled by the interrelationships between the kings of Egypt and Persia from the time when Alexander conquered both regions. ie the bible is a proven supernatural book, I do not doubt it one iota. Personal experience of myself and others includes many miracles, even if its a little dream of warning, or a personal prophecy fulfilled or a person miraculaously healed. So to say a creator has always existed is no different than saying matter and antimatter has always existed. I am glad you have progressed to placing the two theories on an equal empirical basis, because the evidence for both involves processes that we do not yet have enough evidence for.

RKISIT Joined Tue 01/08/08 Posts: 16721	Sat 05/05/12 07:23 AM Edited by RKISIT on Sat 05/05/12 08:01 AM
Howzit you also have to realize theres the question of "How did the creator evolve into existance?"Also other than thousands of year old scriptures that have been translated and copied by humans which leads to errors what evidence is their of a divine being other than those scriptures. So to say a creator has always existed is no different than saying matter and antimatter has always existed. It is different. We know that matter is not eternal. Eventually, all matter will be turned into entropy. God is beyond our knowledge or comprehension. God is not composed of matter or limited by time. God is outside the human experience and it is therefore plausible for an eternal God to exist. For an "eternal matter" to exist, it would have to go against known science, making it far less plausible. matter makes energy as long as energy exist so will matter,it's been around for billions and billions of years may have always been around.God on the other hand is defined by scripture written by man so technically God is a theory to skeptics to you God is a belief to me God is a myth this is why we always reach a stalemate.

howzityoume Joined Mon 12/19/11 Posts: 149	Sat 05/05/12 07:25 AM
As for your DNA thingy,lets take a look the DNA bonds are connected by hydrogen which is on this planet hell the sun is mostly hydrogen.Now lets go with one of the 4 chemicals Adenine which is B4 and that is contained in food we eat so as humans evolved they changed eating habits which in return changed the appearance.In other words if you eat to much fatty foods you evolve into a fat person.But what i mentioned before the evolving of humans take a longer time to happen unlike getting fat. So to answer your question thats where the chemicals and elements came from the earths own elements that make the chemicals.People seem to forget our planet is one big chemistry set. When you have a child, that child has the same DNA size and structure as yourself. The genes are a combination of both parents, yet the DNA has the same human genetic structure. No matter what you eat, you can have no effect or change on the DNA of your child. 1) It is only mutations , mainly through insertions or duplications of sections of DNA, that increase the size of the DNA. 2) These mutations have to be beneficial to become naturally selected and dominant in a population 3) This has not yet been observed yet, its just an idea. If the whole population starts eating fatty foods, there will be signs after a few generations of a change to the "allele frequency" of the population. ie the gene combinations within the human population that involve a metabolism that handles the fatty foods better will start to show in an increased proportion of the population through natural selection, but this involves a few generations.

howzityoume Joined Mon 12/19/11 Posts: 149	Sat 05/05/12 07:38 AM Edited by howzityoume on Sat 05/05/12 07:39 AM
energy makes matter as long as energy exist so will matter,it's been around for billions and billions of years may have always been around.God on the other hand is defined by scripture written by man so technically God is a theory to skeptics to you God is a belief to me God is a myth this is why we always reach a stalemate. Well this thread is more about empirical evidence, which is a level I'm happy to debate on. So we have two opposing concepts 1) I think there's a supreme being that created matter, and this supreme being always existed 2) You think that matter probably always just existed I have no problem with a stale mate on that basis, what I do have a problem with is when evolutionists appear arrogant yet without facts to back themselves up. On a seperate note, I personally feel that there are enough supernatural occurrences in life to acknowledge a whole supernatural world out there, just ask your neighbour, your best friend etc etc. Most people will acknowledge having seen a spirit, had a wierd experience with an Ouija board, a prophecy fulfilled, a healing. People normally come across these occurrences a couple of times in a lifetime. There's a spiritual world out there inexplicable to science.

RKISIT Joined Tue 01/08/08 Posts: 16721	Sat 05/05/12 08:03 AM
energy makes matter as long as energy exist so will matter,it's been around for billions and billions of years may have always been around.God on the other hand is defined by scripture written by man so technically God is a theory to skeptics to you God is a belief to me God is a myth this is why we always reach a stalemate. Well this thread is more about empirical evidence, which is a level I'm happy to debate on. So we have two opposing concepts 1) I think there's a supreme being that created matter, and this supreme being always existed 2) You think that matter probably always just existed I have no problem with a stale mate on that basis, what I do have a problem with is when evolutionists appear arrogant yet without facts to back themselves up. On a seperate note, I personally feel that there are enough supernatural occurrences in life to acknowledge a whole supernatural world out there, just ask your neighbour, your best friend etc etc. Most people will acknowledge having seen a spirit, had a wierd experience with an Ouija board, a prophecy fulfilled, a healing. People normally come across these occurrences a couple of times in a lifetime. There's a spiritual world out there inexplicable to science. actually i messed up i meant matter makes energy so as long as enegy is around so will matter..had to fix that....ooops

Spidercmb Joined Fri 04/27/07 Posts: 13137	Sat 05/05/12 09:20 AM
matter makes energy as long as energy exist so will matter,it's been around for billions and billions of years may have always been around.God on the other hand is defined by scripture written by man so technically God is a theory to skeptics to you God is a belief to me God is a myth this is why we always reach a stalemate. Entropy is unusable energy, it cannot be turned into matter. Since all matter will eventually be transformed into entropy, matter cannot be eternal. Don't believe me? I'm not surprised, but your disbelief doesn't change reality.

RKISIT Joined Tue 01/08/08 Posts: 16721	Sat 05/05/12 10:46 AM Edited by RKISIT on Sat 05/05/12 11:06 AM
matter makes energy as long as energy exist so will matter,it's been around for billions and billions of years may have always been around.God on the other hand is defined by scripture written by man so technically God is a theory to skeptics to you God is a belief to me God is a myth this is why we always reach a stalemate. Entropy is unusable energy, it cannot be turned into matter. Since all matter will eventually be transformed into entropy, matter cannot be eternal. Don't believe me? I'm not surprised, but your disbelief doesn't change reality. So Spider how long do you believe matter in our universe has been around..just curious?This entropy word you keep throwing around isn't the point yes the universe may fade into nonexistence but when will it end,noone knows that.So in the mean time matter could have always existed but the ending of it(matter)is unknown.So as long as matter exist so will energy.Anyways i gotta try to find out about what happened to my prepurchase order of Diablo 3.Somehow my confirmation number got lost.

Spidercmb Joined Fri 04/27/07 Posts: 13137	Sat 05/05/12 12:44 PM
So Spider how long do you believe matter in our universe has been around..just curious? I have no opinion on this, it's of no consequence to me. This entropy word you keep throwing around isn't the point yes the universe may fade into nonexistence but when will it end,noone knows that.So in the mean time matter could have always existed but the ending of it(matter)is unknown.So as long as matter exist so will energy. You can't have it both ways! You can't say that matter is eternal, but it will eventually all be lost to entropy. The Second Law of Thermodynamics cannot be ignored and you can't just wave your hand and say "We don't know when that will happen, so the Universe is eternal". Anyways i gotta try to find out about what happened to my prepurchase order of Diablo 3.Somehow my confirmation number got lost. If you bought it from the Blizzard store, you'll find the info there. I just checked and mine is ready to go. You can pre-download everything now so you are ready for the 15th.

Jeanniebean Joined Wed 01/30/08 Posts: 40028	Sat 05/05/12 03:17 PM
Matter, energy and consciousness.

Jeanniebean Joined Wed 01/30/08 Posts: 40028	Sat 05/05/12 03:23 PM
Our existence on earth takes on a different meaning when the notion of energy is stripped from its steam engine mentality and consciousness is recognized as the true driving force of physical experience.

Jeanniebean Joined Wed 01/30/08 Posts: 40028	Sat 05/05/12 03:26 PM
Consciousness The nature of the Great Scaling Pattern leads to a uniqueness of every 'identity' in the universe. The dynamic nature of the universe acts as an agent of change on the 'identity', yet the 'identity' wants to preserve its identity. These two forces create an imbalance. The mediating force between these two forces is called consciousness. This form of consciousness is therefore present in all aspects of the universe and our experiences, physical as well as non-physical. We use the term 'identity' to illustrate the dynamics of consciousness. The actual nature of 'identities' are looping interaction patterns, physical and non-physical. Directed energy The nature of this consciousness is such that it channels energy directed at mediating the imbalances, physical and non-physical. It is argued that this energy drives our actual universe. We have thus closed the cycle. cut/past from http://www.slenters.ch/einstein/

msharmony Joined Mon 08/31/09 Posts: 61041	Sat 05/05/12 03:27 PM
WHAT IF: we were created with the ability to evolve...? that would make the debate totally unnecessary and pointless ,, yes?