When I am clear on what is right and what is wrong, it comes to me as a feeling and moral instinct, and not from what other people say or think or from religion or a church's "rules" or "commandments."

We basically decide for ourselves what is right and wrong. Even Christians decide for themselves what is right and wrong, and basically they decide it is right to be a Christian, and try to live a Christian lifestyle according to their particular teaching or even the 10 commandments.

I have met people who are vegans who feel it is morally wrong to eat any kind of animal products at all. For them it is a religion. They look upon meat eaters as "sinners" or non-believers. To be a vegan, you usually have to be a believer that it is wrong to eat animal flesh and animal products. They don't simply do it for health reasons. The do it because they believe it is wrong to kill animals and eat them or to even eat their eggs and milk.

A person who is into a very healthy life style, eating right, exercising, strength training and staying away from drugs and alcohol, might be a vegetarian or even a meat eater but his main focus is on health. To him or her, a person who lives an unhealthy lifestyle, eating junk, drinking, smoking is a "sinner." His religion is people should take responsibility for their health.

I think people do constantly work on the rules for their own lives and learn what is right vs wrong, and many people just innately know or decide what is right and what feels wrong for themselves.

I have met some Christians who speak very hatefully towards people who make their own rules or decisions about right and wrong and they insinuate that we (humans) are too stupid or ignorant to make that decision for ourselves and they proceed to preach their own values to others, or recite the ten commandments as if these were the end all to the rules handed down from God. (Of course in addition to these ten, they usually have dozens more they found in scripture somewhere too.)

But here is my question.

If you are Christian, and you know all the rules handed down by God and you are certain of them and you don't even have to think about or decide what is right and wrong because it is all spelled out for you in scriptures then why do you still sin?

I'd like to make things perfectly clear and state that there is no such thing as a "perfect" Christian. Now, of course, that's the opinion of only one feeble-minded individual, so make of it what you will.

For me, Christianity isn't about expecting perfect. If you think it's your duty as a believer to live mistake-free, then THAT is where you're missing the mark. Essentially God is giving his children the opportunity to sin. (thank goodness for forgiveness) As stated by JB in the OP, Christians know the rules and understand the Scriptures which speak against breaking them but that isn't the basis for a faith in God. Once again to reiterate, if you try to live without sinning, then you simply don't understand the concept of God. Grasping the fact that you can't be perfect (i.e. not sinning) is the foundation for a life that enables you to draw closer to God.

I think a lot of the examples given are a matter of healthy and unhealthy as opposed to right and wrong

I in fact do have a vegan niece, and she has no belief about eating meat being 'wrong' whatsoever, she just feels it is not the 'healthy' option to include the consumption of certain things she doesn't feel her body needs,, UNLESS IT DOES

when she is pregnant , she does indeed eat some meat products, because she recognizes her body's signs and the way her body signals what it needs, and during pregnancy her body sometimes needs meat...


I think the result of consistent unhealthy choices with our body can be bad health and ultimately early death,, that is the natural consequence of not properly taking care of the body,,,,,



similarly, God (for me) as the creator sets aside a very complex and complete guideline for taking care of my spiritual health, and for not meeting a SPIRITUAL death but for having an eternal SPIRITUAL Life in which my path will return to HIM instead of eternal death

right and wrong is a matter of spiritual health, and though we may know what is healthy (as humans) doesn't mean we are always successful at making those healthy choices,, especially when the unhealthy ones are easier, or FEEL better , (or in the case of diet 'taste' better)


but like someone trying to loose weight to decrease their health risks may find it difficult to follow through with the healthy choices they are perfectly aware of

humans, including Christians, trying to decrease their spiritual risks may find it difficult to follow through with the healthy(spiritual) choices they are aware of


and then some people will become perfectly complacent in their bad habits,, drinking, smoking, gluttony. sin and in the risk it creates in their life (liver damage, cancer, obesity,,,high blood pressure,,,eternal death, etc)

Laws are made to guide ones conduct cos in the state of lawlessness,,,anything goes...And laws are made to be broken.For the fact that Christains have some laid down comandments does not mean they should not sin...God is not after the fleshy being,,but the spirit being...Sin is of the flesh,,and they that are in the flesh can not please God...So for one to please God,,one must worship him in truth and spirit cos God is a spirit being.....Have you ever wondered why He is committed to forgiving???

The difference is, a person who decides (or learns) to make his or her own rules about right and wrong have to think. They are expected to make mistakes. When they do make a mistake they might learn that what they did was "wrong" because they realized how it hurt someone else. Then they (hopefully) will change their ways. (Sin no more.)

Christians, on the other hand, are told what is right and what is wrong via rules, guidance and the ten commandments. IF they believe all of what they have been told, then they don't have to "think" or "decide" what is right and wrong for themselves, all they have to do is obey the laws. Simple right?

If they already know what the laws are, then why do they break them?

If they repent and believe they are forgiven, then why do they continue to break the same laws? Have they not repented and decided to change their ways? or do they think they can just continue to sin and be forgiven over and over?

If you know the law and break it, it is not a "mistake," it is INTENTIONAL.

Repent ye Sinners!

What is the nature of the guilt that your teachers call [man’s] Original Sin? What are the evils man acquired when he fell from a state they consider perfection? Their myth declares that he ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge—he acquired a mind and became a rational being. It was the knowledge of good and evil—he became a moral being. He was sentenced to earn his bread by his labor—he became a productive being. He was sentenced to experience desire—he acquired the capacity of sexual enjoyment. The evils for which they damn him are reason, morality, creativeness, joy—all the cardinal values of his existence. It is not his vices that their myth of man’s fall is designed to explain and condemn, it is not his errors that they hold as his guilt, but the essence of his nature as man. Whatever he was—that robot in the Garden of Eden, who existed without mind, without values, without labor, without love—he was not man.

Man’s fall, according to your teachers, was that he gained the virtues required to live. These virtues, by their standard, are his Sin. His evil, they charge, is that he’s man. His guilt, they charge, is that he lives.

They call it a morality of mercy and a doctrine of love for man.

No, they say, they do not preach that man is evil, the evil is only that alien object: his body. No, they say, they do not wish to kill him, they only wish to make him lose his body. They seek to help him, they say, against his pain—and they point at the torture rack to which they’ve tied him, the rack with two wheels that pull him in opposite directions, the rack of the doctrine that splits his soul and body.


The good, say the mystics of spirit, is God, a being whose only definition is that he is beyond man’s power to conceive—a definition that invalidates man’s consciousness and nullifies his concepts of existence. . . . Man’s mind, say the mystics of spirit, must be subordinated to the will of God. . . . Man’s standard of value, say the mystics of spirit, is the pleasure of God, whose standards are beyond man’s power of comprehension and must be accepted on faith . . . The purpose of man’s life . . . is to become an abject zombie who serves a purpose he does not know, for reasons he is not to question.

http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/religion.html

Awesome! Love it!



You might say that man's original sin is that he became aware and conscious.

Perhaps some inner dimensional alien beings genetically engineered the human body to be a non thinking clone, to be used and possessed as a vehicle. In order to operate in this third density world they needed physical bodies. These inner dimensional beings can enter and possess these bodies, just as we use an automobile.

They were not supposed to be more than dumb animals or mindless clones. They had souls, consciousness, morals and knowledge of right and wrong.

everyone is told what is 'right' and 'wrong',,,,children dont come in the world knowing those things for themself

that is why they are raised so many years by PARENTS,, and not just popped out and left to learn on their own and decide for themself


some are told 'right and wrong' in terms of the laws of the land,, others are told 'right and wrong' in broader terms of it 'hurts' someone else its wrong

or if it 'causes harm down the road or to a family or to a social structure'' it is wrong

but people dont pull much of anything out of the air,, they have to 'learn' it from something or someone and determine if that teaching lines up with their own experiences,,,


this notion that because someone is a christian they arent required to decide for themself or come to logical decisions of their own is fallacious...

and, because christians are also human,, always doing 'right' is no less a struggle for them than it is anyone else


because plenty of 'wrong' things appear to not only be immediately harmful but have attached an immediate gratification,, the consequences of which can often take a lifetime to surface,,,

This is only your assumption.

Morals are innate and instinctive in some cases.

Even if you think "everyone" is told what is right or wrong, this happens over time. The information does not just get presented to a child all at once.

As a small child I had a sense of right and wrong about things that no one ever 'told' me about, so I know yours is an assumption based on what you think you know.

never said what time it took, or that it happened all at once

so unless the claim is noones ever taught you anything about right and wrong,,,,

I guess we agree

Nevertheless, your statement is an assumption, not a fact. (Or maybe its just your opinion.)

Also, "being taught" and "learning" something ..... are sometimes very different things.

Being "told" what is right and wrong, is not the same as "learning from experience" and 'feeling' the difference between right and wrong.

and being 'told' doesnt exclude 'learning from experience',, either


so I dont get the point,,,

Your statement was:

"children dont come in the world knowing those things for themself"

This is an assumption.

Who taught Jesus right from wrong?

Give our personal connection to GOD a little credit for a change.

the statement wasnt about children having a conscious

or knowing SOME Things

the point was children are raised and TAUGHT right and wrong,,,not EVERYTHING concerning right and wrong,, but they are absolutely told about what things are right and wrong,,,period.

yes, we have a conscious, but we also have LOGIC that is developed through LEARNING,, and when we LEARN right from wrong,, rather from our experience, or someone elses experiences,,,,we learn it just like we learn healthy and unhealthy, or safe and unsafe

it doesnt ALL come from some innate knowledge, somewhere along the way we are TAUGHT some of these things somewhere,,,

Yes it does. Morals are innate for humans. It is because of human consciousness. We are connected to the divine.

Because we are HUMAN we have the capacity of knowing the difference between good and evil.

An animal has no knowledge of good and evil. They can only be trained to avoid consequences and they can only follow their natural instincts and programming.

Solace84

Maybe you should read this:

according to your teachers, was that he gained the virtues required to live


,,no clue what this refers to,, seems like one persons understanding being projected onto a whole group

in fact, most of the post is....


" The evils for which they damn him are reason, morality, creativeness, joy—all the cardinal values of his existence. "....


Where in the bible are any of these alleged teachings?

really? so you think a newborn already will, for instance, know it is 'wrong' to lie?

even if they are never corrected and never caught in the act of doing it,,?


or they will know it is wrong to take what isn't theirs? even if no one corrects them when they do it or catches them?

,,you believe there is just an innate knowledge that requires no additional lesson from experience (Theirs or others)?

,,,,interesting perspective,,,,

and religion aside, if a non religious child , teen, adult, knows it is against the law to steal,, why do they still do it?

Im going to guess there is a list of things that drive people to do things they may 'know' aren't permissible,,,,,but why that human weakness should be any more expired in a Christian than a non Christian I don't know


humans don't always get it right or do right, regardless of what laws they 'know' about,,, temptation, immediate gratification, the sense of 'no harm' ,,,can often blur their judgement and lead them to excuse their way into wrong anyhow,,,