Topic: The Challlenge of Talking about Race
Dodo_David's photo
Mon 07/21/14 10:15 AM

A challenge to talking about race is the HUGE amount of false racism leveled against the Republican party by the Democrats and the HUGE amount of racism existing in plain view in the Democratic party that is invisible to the Democrats. This tool is used to good effect.


When it comes to a discussion about race, the Democratic Party, in general, wants to dictate the rules of the discussion.

That way the Party can create non-falsifiable arguments which prove that the Democratic Party is superior to the Republican Party when it comes to race.

Anything goes in order to keep the Democratic Party propped up on its pedestal.

TBRich's photo
Mon 07/21/14 01:38 PM






What I find amusing is that some people want to link that list of villains to Conservatives and Republicans.

Some of those villains listed are Nazis, and the German name "Nazi" is an acronym for "National Socialist Party.

Some of those villains listed are KKK members, with the KKK originating as the militant arm of the Democratic Party.

Plenty of the villains listed are merely ant-government thugs.

Anyway, such fringe groups aren't really what this discussion thread is about.



National-Sozialistische Deutsche Arbeiter Partei (NSDAP)

National-Socialist German Workers Party!
The Leader of which blatantly ignored Jesse Owens!



That is historically inaccurate: he was upset he was not getting the attention that a Zepplin was getting;
just like how a foot stomp is reported as a "dance" at France's surrender.

If you can not see the extension in attitudes and beliefs in these "fringe" groups and its extension of the current trend in right wing ideology, you must e from another planet...er, oh yeah, sorry.
I miss Buckley and the others who knew they lost the election as soon as Goldwater said- extremism is defense of liberty is no vice; and moderation (in the face of something I forget) is no virtue.

Old Son,I grew up in Europe,and have a pretty good grasp on it's History!
Hitler was extremely peeved that an "Untermensch" had beaten his Rein-Arier German Athletes!:laughing:

Don't know what you're bringing Goldwater into the Discussion.:laughing:
Seems you posted your Rant to the wrong Poster,since I made no reference to any of those Fringe-Groups!rofl
BTW,I advise you to watch the piece of Film with Hitler doing the Hitler-stomp once again!
That was definitely a Jig,considering Hitler's normally reserved personality in those matters!


Son? I am old enough to be your younger, and much better looking brother. I did see the film, which is why I say it was a foot stomp, then he walked away. History is written by the victor.

The Goldwater statement was for the other rightwing nut job

TBRich's photo
Mon 07/21/14 01:56 PM
Luxury Condo in Manhattan Will Have a ‘Poor Door’ for Low-Income Tenants
The 33-story tower received approval from the city to have a separate entrance for affordable-housing tenants.
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July 21, 2014 |




In a stunning example of “separate but equal” logic, New York City has approved a developer’s controversial plans to construct two separate entrances for their new luxury condo on the Upper West Side: one for low-income residents and one for those who can fork over the market rate. As the New York Post reported, the firm, Extell, is building a 33-story tower with 219 units facing the Hudson River and 55 affordable units that face the street.

Extell is part of the city’s Inclusionary Housing Program, which requires real estate developers to create a percentage of affordable housing units for low-income households either on- or off-site. In exchange, developers often receive permission to construct higher or larger buildings (Extell’s new luxury condo is a case in point). According to the Department of City Planning, this model of development “promotes economic integration in areas of the City undergoing substantial new residential development.”

But segregating poorer residents into their own sections of mixed-income buildings and creating two entrances so that wealthier tenants never have to interact with them is not conducive to economic integration. Instead, it reinforces a two-tier model of housing, where the rich can pay a premium to remain isolated in their waterfront apartments and developers can profit from their extra square footage while feigning a social consciousness. As Bryce Covert reports for Think Progress, “some low-income residents in luxury buildings are prohibited from using the amenities offered to the wealthy tenants…several buildings in the city ban affordable housing or rent-regulated tenants from using perks like gyms, rooftops, and pools.”

Bill de Blasio made access to affordable housing a cornerstone of his administration, releasing a housing plan in May that promises to create 200,000 new units over the next ten years. But the Inclusionary Zoning model doesn’t even brush the surface of New York City’s housing problem, as the city lost 400,000 units of affordable housing between 2000 and 2012 alone. If the mayor wants to address the housing crisis and begin to combat New York’s rampant income inequality, he should start by forbidding developers from integrating discriminatory policies right into the design of their buildings.

Allegra Kirkland is AlterNet's associate managing editor. Her writing has appeared in the Chicago Reader, Inc., Daily Serving and the Nation.

msharmony's photo
Mon 07/21/14 02:19 PM


A challenge to talking about race is the HUGE amount of false racism leveled against the Republican party by the Democrats and the HUGE amount of racism existing in plain view in the Democratic party that is invisible to the Democrats. This tool is used to good effect.


When it comes to a discussion about race, the Democratic Party, in general, wants to dictate the rules of the discussion.

That way the Party can create non-falsifiable arguments which prove that the Democratic Party is superior to the Republican Party when it comes to race.

Anything goes in order to keep the Democratic Party propped up on its pedestal.


this op was not begun by a party, it was begun by an individual....

there are no 'rules' that have been dictated by any party
noone has purported that any party is 'superior' or on a 'pedestal'


though, to me, it is 'superior' to discuss and acknowledge racism, rather than hide from it, deny it, avoid it, and make the topic some elephant in the room that its shameful to bring up at all,,,,

msharmony's photo
Mon 07/21/14 02:24 PM

A challenge to talking about race is the HUGE amount of false racism leveled against the Republican party by the Democrats and the HUGE amount of racism existing in plain view in the Democratic party that is invisible to the Democrats. This tool is used to good effect.


'huge' amount? can you be more specific?

I am an individual, right now, trying to discuss race,

the article was about a specific incident (with rockefeller), used as a segway to the topic of discussing race

where a republican happened to be one claiming that its 'ridiculous' to consider racism could be present in the republican base, and then also saying its impossible to know whats in someones heart,,


which says, its impossible to so completely deny any possibility of racism existing in the republican party

but, it does seem, in this case, that particular republican did just that,,,

Dodo_David's photo
Mon 07/21/14 06:50 PM
Want to have a conversation about race? Really?

Then let's include the following comments made by African-American columnist Star Parker:

Can racism really be as rampant in America as all the current rhetoric implies?

A Google search for "racism" will produce a long list of articles from the most recent week's news claiming racism on issue after issue of national concern.

We need to dig deeper and give more careful thought about whether racism is as pervasive as all the rhetoric seems to imply or whether other factors are driving the problems that continue to plague non-white communities. And if so, perhaps all the rhetoric about race we're hearing reflects more Democratic political operations than realities of America...


... Since the Civil Rights Act in 1964, black economic progress on average compared to the white population has been dismal. The gap in black household income compared to white household income has grown, average black household wealth as a percentage of average white household wealth has shrunk, and the percentage of black poverty has remained almost constant at three times greater than white poverty.

These realities reflect destructive big government policies that grip these communities. But Democrats who want to continue to sell these policies will continue on the racism message and claim that this is what limited government ideas are about.


Also, let's include African-American columnist Thomas Sowell's review of a recently-published book written by African-American journalist Jason Riley:

Back in the heyday of the British Empire, a man from one of the colonies addressed a London audience.

"Please do not do any more good in my country," he said. "We have suffered too much already from all the good that you have done."

That is essentially the message of an outstanding new book by Jason Riley about blacks in America. Its title is "Please Stop Helping Us." Its theme is that many policies designed to help blacks are in fact harmful, sometimes devastatingly so. These counterproductive policies range from minimum wage laws to "affirmative action" quotas.


Then let's add a commentary by African-American Deneen Borelli:
If you've been to an amusement park, no doubt you have seen a popular arcade game called Whack-A-Mole, where players use a toy mallet to "whack" the head of toy moles that randomly pop up and down.

In the political arena, liberal activists employ the same tactic which I call Whack-A-Black Conservative.

When black conservatives stand up and speak out about empowerment and smaller government, they are "whacked" by left-wing activists. The whacking includes derogatory comments such as "you're acting white" and "you should dye your hair blond." The aforementioned are just a few of the comments that have been directed at me.

The goal is to silence opposing views through intimidation.

msharmony's photo
Mon 07/21/14 08:13 PM
Edited by msharmony on Mon 07/21/14 08:20 PM
The goal is to silence opposing views through intimidation


A GREAT POINT< like the intimidation of accusing people of playing a card when they discuss their experiencs with racism,,,


talking about race and racism can't exclude conservatives who feel 'attacked' by liberals (or other conservatives)either, I agree. I would never concede to any attempt to do so.



as far as 'counterproductive' policies, that is always a possibility


, it would seem easy to validate such a claim with actual numbers showing that prepolicy numbers were BETTER than post policy numbers,,

I would be open to and interested in seeing such evidence , I would be delighted to hear contributions or suggestions of what would work better.

Going BACKWARDS to what wasnt working before is not a viable answer for me.


I have seen no quantifiable evidence that the connection is there between policy causing these fails though, and have heard of no suggestions for something that would work better.

Chazster's photo
Mon 07/21/14 09:04 PM
Racism- when anything not specifically targeted to a minority group is considered white.

msharmony's photo
Mon 07/21/14 09:11 PM

Racism- when anything not specifically targeted to a minority group is considered white.



which dictionary is that from"



examples of racism:

children not being permitted to a school due to race
people hung due to their race
people born into slavery because of their race
people kept out of institutions because of race
,,

these are things that are RACIST because they do TARGET a race, not because they dont 'specifically target' a minority group











Full Definition of RACISM


1

: a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race


2

: racial prejudice or discrimination

Dodo_David's photo
Mon 07/21/14 09:13 PM

The goal is to silence opposing views through intimidation


A GREAT POINT< like the intimidation of accusing people of playing a card when they discuss their experiencs with racism,,,


On the contrary, complaints about the race card are legitimate when when someone cries "Racism!" in an attempt to direct people's attention away from the errors and misdeeds made by the one crying "Racism!"

msharmony's photo
Mon 07/21/14 09:18 PM


The goal is to silence opposing views through intimidation


A GREAT POINT< like the intimidation of accusing people of playing a card when they discuss their experiencs with racism,,,


On the contrary, complaints about the race card are legitimate when when someone cries "Racism!" in an attempt to direct people's attention away from the errors and misdeeds made by the one crying "Racism!"


AND , complaints about the race card are ILLEGITIMATE means of intimidation , when someone (usually black) partipates in a discussion on race or discrimination INITIATED by someone else (often white)



msharmony's photo
Tue 07/22/14 02:52 AM



The goal is to silence opposing views through intimidation


A GREAT POINT< like the intimidation of accusing people of playing a card when they discuss their experiencs with racism,,,


On the contrary, complaints about the race card are legitimate when when someone cries "Racism!" in an attempt to direct people's attention away from the errors and misdeeds made by the one crying "Racism!"


AND , complaints about the race card are ILLEGITIMATE means of intimidation , when someone (usually black) partipates in a discussion on race or discrimination INITIATED by someone else (often white)

In short, and let us be clear on it: race is not a card. It determines whom the dealer is, and who gets dealt. (from What Kind of Card is Race?)


Sojourning_Soul's photo
Tue 07/22/14 07:38 AM



The goal is to silence opposing views through intimidation


A GREAT POINT< like the intimidation of accusing people of playing a card when they discuss their experiencs with racism,,,


On the contrary, complaints about the race card are legitimate when when someone cries "Racism!" in an attempt to direct people's attention away from the errors and misdeeds made by the one crying "Racism!"


AND , complaints about the race card are ILLEGITIMATE means of intimidation, when someone (usually black) partipates in a discussion on race or discrimination INITIATED by someone else (often white)





Race is only an issue for people that wish to make it so.

Most I know don't


AND, complaints about the race card are ILLEGITIMATE means of intimidation, when someone (usually black) partipates in a discussion on race or discrimination INITIATED by someone else (often white)


Some might consider that a divisive statement bordering on racism. Why not just say "you crackers are all racist!"?

msharmony's photo
Tue 07/22/14 07:44 AM




The goal is to silence opposing views through intimidation


A GREAT POINT< like the intimidation of accusing people of playing a card when they discuss their experiencs with racism,,,


On the contrary, complaints about the race card are legitimate when when someone cries "Racism!" in an attempt to direct people's attention away from the errors and misdeeds made by the one crying "Racism!"


AND , complaints about the race card are ILLEGITIMATE means of intimidation, when someone (usually black) partipates in a discussion on race or discrimination INITIATED by someone else (often white)





Race is only an issue for people that wish to make it so.

Most I know don't


AND, complaints about the race card are ILLEGITIMATE means of intimidation, when someone (usually black) partipates in a discussion on race or discrimination INITIATED by someone else (often white)


Some might consider that a divisive statement bordering on racism. Why not just say "you crackers are all racist!"?



it can be said of any 'issue' , that it is only an issue to those who wish to make it so,,, including government, politics , or anything else

obviously, like Obama and government are an 'issue' for some who start threads

racism is an 'issue' for the person starting this one

and , situational deafness is a common ailment in these threads as the words like 'usually', and 'some', are in no way synonymous with the word 'all'


how often do you hear of white people being accused of playing a 'race' card? is your experience different in terms of which race of people are usually involved when the charge is leveled?

Sojourning_Soul's photo
Tue 07/22/14 08:25 AM





The goal is to silence opposing views through intimidation


A GREAT POINT< like the intimidation of accusing people of playing a card when they discuss their experiencs with racism,,,


On the contrary, complaints about the race card are legitimate when when someone cries "Racism!" in an attempt to direct people's attention away from the errors and misdeeds made by the one crying "Racism!"


AND , complaints about the race card are ILLEGITIMATE means of intimidation, when someone (usually black) partipates in a discussion on race or discrimination INITIATED by someone else (often white)





Race is only an issue for people that wish to make it so.

Most I know don't


AND, complaints about the race card are ILLEGITIMATE means of intimidation, when someone (usually black) partipates in a discussion on race or discrimination INITIATED by someone else (often white)


Some might consider that a divisive statement bordering on racism. Why not just say "you crackers are all racist!"?



it can be said of any 'issue' , that it is only an issue to those who wish to make it so,,, including government, politics , or anything else

obviously, like Obama and government are an 'issue' for some who start threads

racism is an 'issue' for the person starting this one

and , situational deafness is a common ailment in these threads as the words like 'usually', and 'some', are in no way synonymous with the word 'all'


how often do you hear of white people being accused of playing a 'race' card? is your experience different in terms of which race of people are usually involved when the charge is leveled?




Your whole reply is an attempt at the "white race card" blaming, accusation thing!

msharmony's photo
Tue 07/22/14 09:01 AM
so,,,

no answer,,,



just more ad hominem to add absolutely NOTHING to the topic,,,,quel surpris,,,whoa

Conrad_73's photo
Tue 07/22/14 10:09 AM
OhMyGorsh!:laughing:

http://allenbwest.com/2014/07/naacp-member-tells-black-conservatives-theyre-welcome-convention-video/


NAACP stands for National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, and at the turn of the century, Booker T. Washington had a three-pronged agenda for their advancement: education, entrepreneurship, and self-reliance. Those three values completely align with conservative principles.

At the NAACP conference this week, a member was quite upset that black conservatives were there at all, including Deneen Borelli and CL Bryant, and made it clear they were not welcome at the event. This video is quite telling because it provides a clear window into what ails the black community: the advancement of grievance mongering and the welfare state. rofl

msharmony's photo
Tue 07/22/14 10:19 AM

actually the video shows ONE person objecting to the presence of the two people she spoke to

NAACP has had conservatives speak and does not discriminate based upon race or political affiliation,,,

the video gives NO information about welfare and provides no WINDOW about what 'ails the black community' , but only what ails some in the black community,, specifically , what this INDIVIDUAL is troubled by and in opposition to

msharmony's photo
Tue 07/22/14 10:19 AM
actually the video shows ONE person objecting to the presence of the two people she spoke to

NAACP has had conservatives speak and does not discriminate based upon race or political affiliation,,,

TBRich's photo
Tue 07/22/14 12:27 PM
(The Root) -- America is not yet done with the illness of racism, the electoral success of Barack Obama notwithstanding. Yet most white folks don't want to talk about or hear about race anymore. And a good many black folks fret that it is strategically wiser for us to let it alone for now.

I am uncomfortable with both prescriptions. Some underlying maladies, to be sure, do heal on their own. Despite its modern subtlety and complexity, however, the current strain of racism infecting the U.S. is unlikely to be self-healing.

Let's be honest: Our culture is still deeply suffused with anti-black bias, despite an African-American president in office. National surveys (pdf) continue to reveal commonly held stereotypes of African Americans as less hardworking and less intelligent than whites. Political resentments of blacks remain a centerpiece -- indeed, a genuine third rail -- of American domestic politics: Do anything to seriously activate these resentments, and you run the risk of immediate political electrocution. The last time we saw any major political figure come close to touching the rail, of activating these political resentments against blacks, occurred when Obama offered his off-the-cuff remarks about the arrest of Henry Louis Gates Jr., The Root's editor-in-chief, by the Cambridge, Mass., police.

The level of negative stereotypes and attitudes tapped in polls and surveys may only reveal the most easily observable symptoms of the illness. A number of powerful psychological experiments show the extent to which blackness for Americans is intimately tied to images of violence and danger. Indeed, one of the most depressing lines of research suggests a core underlining psychological association of blackness with apes, an ugly, old racist trope from the age of the Great Chain of Being, in which the African was seen as closer to primitive animals in the hierarchy of species (pdf).

To be sure, this whole issue of racism had a more straightforward quality in the past. We did not have to resort to complex surveys and experiments to reveal its depth. There used to be something loud and obvious and terrible about racism -- circumstances with some ironic virtues. A visible and openly declared enemy is so much more directly confronted than one that operates stealthily.

And that is the dilemma of racism in our times. We have hints, suggestions, indications, if you will, of racial bias all around us today. But it is typically unspoken, if not altogether invisible, much of the time. And where it's not invisible, there is often a plausible cover story that can be told as to why racially differential treatment was somehow justifiable or legitimate.

All of this makes waging the fight against racism much tougher. It is now quiet -- or rationalized on some nonracial grounds and thereby hidden in plain view -- and seemingly, as a consequence, perhaps not such a bad thing after all.

But it is a bad thing. Let's be clear: There is plenty of research showing that actual discrimination remains remarkably common. For example, one major study of low-skilled workers in New York found high rates of bias against black job applicants. Princeton sociologist Devah Pager and her colleagues showed that otherwise identical black job seekers were 50 percent less likely to achieve success in a job search (pdf) than their white counterparts.

The discrimination was so subtle that only a systematic experiment could reveal it. This was not the loud de jure discrimination of the era of "no blacks need apply," but instead today's quiet bias of "Oh, we already filled that position" or "We were actually looking for someone with more experience" or "Maybe you'd be better suited to this lower-paying job."