Not sure if this is belongs in political or religious...ill let the mods decide.

http://news.yahoo.com/berlin-church-muslim-refugees-converting-droves-083020529.html

At a Berlin church, Muslim refugees converting in droves

BERLIN (AP) — Mohammed Ali Zonoobi bends his head as the priest pours holy water over his black hair. "Will you break away from Satan and his evil deeds?" pastor Gottfried Martens asks the Iranian refugee. "Will you break away from Islam?"

"Yes," Zonoobi fervently replies. Spreading his hands in blessing, Martens then baptizes the man "in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost."

Mohammed is now Martin — no longer Muslim, but Christian.

Zonoobi, a carpenter from the Iranian city of Shiraz, arrived in Germany with his wife and two children five months ago. He is one of hundreds of mostly Iranian and Afghan asylum seekers who have converted to Christianity at the evangelical Trinity Church in a leafy Berlin neighborhood.

Like Zonoobi, most say true belief prompted their embrace of Christianity. But there's no overlooking the fact that the decision will also greatly boost their chances of winning asylum by allowing them to claim they would face persecution if sent home.


(Iranian asylum-seeker Vesam Heydari stands in front of the Trinity Church in Berlin, Germany, Aug. 1 …)img


Martens recognizes that some convert in order to improve their chances of staying in Germany — but for the pastor motivation is unimportant. Many, he said, are so taken by the Christian message that it changes their lives. And he estimates that only about 10 percent of converts do not return to church after christening.

"I know there are — again and again — people coming here because they have some kind of hope regarding their asylum," Martens said. "I am inviting them to join us because I know that whoever comes here will not be left unchanged."

Being Christian alone does not help an applicant, and Chancellor Angela Merkel went out of her way this week to reiterate that Islam "belongs in Germany." But in Afghanistan and Iran, for example, conversion to Christianity by a Muslim could be punished by death or imprisonment, and it is therefore unlikely that Germany would deport converted Iranian and Afghan refugees back home.

None will openly admit to converting in order to help their asylum chances. To do so could result in rejection of their asylum bid and deportation as Christian converts. Several candidates for baptism at Martens' church would not give their names out of fear of repercussions for their families back home.

Most said their decision was based on belief, but one young Iranian woman said she was convinced most people had joined the church only to improve their chances for asylum.


(Iranian asylum-seeker Aref Movasaq Rodsari stands in the Trinity Church in Berlin, Germany, Aug. 13, …)img


Congregation member Vesam Heydari initially applied for asylum in Norway and converted there in 2009. But his case was rejected because the Norwegian authorities did not believe he would be persecuted as a Christian in Iran, so he moved to Germany to seek refugee status here — and is awaiting a decision. He criticized many of the other Iranian church members, saying they were making it much harder for "real, persecuted Christians" like himself to get approved for asylum.

"The majority of Iranians here are not converting out of belief," Heydari said. "They only want to stay in Germany."

Meanwhile, as other churches across Germany struggle with dwindling numbers of believers, Martens has seen his congregation swell from 150 just two years to more than 600 parishioners now — with a seemingly unending flow of new refugees finding the way to his congregation. Some come from cities as far away as Rostock on the Baltic Sea, having found out by word-of-mouth that Martens not only baptizes Muslims after a three-month "crash course" in Christianity, but also helps them with asylum pleas.

Other Christian communities across Germany, among them Lutheran churches in Hannover and the Rhineland, have also reported growing numbers of Iranians converting to Christendom. There are no exact numbers on how many Muslims have converted in Germany in recent years — and they are a tiny minority compared to the country's overall 4 million Muslims. But at least for Berlin, Martens describes the number of conversions as nothing short of a "miracle." And he says he has at least another 80 people — mostly refugees from Iran and a few Afghans — waiting to be baptized.

Germany is witnessing an unprecedented surge of asylum-seekers this year, with the number of migrants expected to reach 800,000 this year, a fourfold increase on last year.


(An Iranian asylum-seeker wearing a Christian shirt waits to be baptized in the Trinity Church in Ber …)img


Many of the new arrivals come from Muslim countries such as Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan or Pakistan. While refugees from civil-war-torn Syria will almost definitely be receiving asylum status, the situation is more complicated for asylum seekers from Iran or Afghanistan, which are seen as more stable. In recent years, roughly 40-50 percent from those two countries have been allowed to stay in the country, with many of those getting only temporary permission to remain.

Germany's Federal Office for Migration and Refugees said it does not comment on the reasons individual applicants give when they apply for asylum, or on how many people receive refugee status in Germany based on religious persecution.

Zonoobi, who dressed all in white for his baptism on Sunday, said he had attended secret religious services in Iran ever since friends introduced him to the Bible at age 18. He decided to flee to Germany after several Christian friends were arrested for practicing their religion.

For Zonoobi and his wife Afsaneh — who since her baptism goes by the name of Katarina — the christening marks a new beginning.

"Now we are free and can be ourselves," she said. "Most important, I am so happy that our children will have a good future here and can get a good education in Germany."

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/011-taqiyya.htm/

TheReligionofPeace.com

Guide to Understanding Islam


What does the
Religion of Peace
Teach About...
Lying (Taqiyya and Kitman)

Question:
Are Muslims permitted to lie?

Summary Answer:
Muslim scholars teach that Muslims should generally be truthful to each other, unless the purpose of lying is to "smooth over differences."

There are two forms of lying to non-believers that are permitted under certain circumstances, taqiyya and kitman. These circumstances are typically those that advance the cause Islam - in some cases by gaining the trust of non-believers in order to draw out their vulnerability and defeat them.



The Qur'an:
Qur'an (16:106) - Establishes that there are circumstances that can "compel" a Muslim to tell a lie.

Qur'an (3:28) - This verse tells Muslims not to take those outside the faith as friends, unless it is to "guard themselves" against danger, meaning that there are times when a Muslim may appear friendly to non-Muslims, though they should not feel that way..

Qur'an (9:3) - "...Allah and His Messenger are free from liability to the idolaters..." The dissolution of oaths with the pagans who remained at Mecca following its capture. They did nothing wrong, but were evicted anyway.

Qur'an (40:28) - A man is introduced as a believer, but one who must "hide his faith" among those who are not believers.

Qur'an (2:225) - "Allah will not call you to account for thoughtlessness in your oaths, but for the intention in your hearts" The context of this remark is marriage, which explains why Sharia allows spouses to lie to each other for the greater good.

Qur'an (3:54) - "And they (the disbelievers) schemed, and Allah schemed (against them): and Allah is the best of schemers." The Arabic word used here for scheme (or plot) is makara, which literally means 'deceit'. If Allah is supremely deceitful toward unbelievers, then there is little basis for denying that Muslims are allowed to do the same. (See also 8:30 and 10:21)

Taken collectively these verses are interpreted to mean that there are circumstances when a Muslim may be "compelled" to deceive others for a greater purpose.

From the Hadith:

Bukhari (52:269) - "The Prophet said, 'War is deceit.'" The context of this is thought to be the murder of Usayr ibn Zarim and his thirty unarmed men by Muhammad's men after he "guaranteed" them safe passage (see Additional Notes below).

Bukhari (49:857) - "He who makes peace between the people by inventing good information or saying good things, is not a liar." Lying is permitted when the end justifies the means.

Bukhari (84:64-65) - Speaking from a position of power at the time, Ali confirms that lying is permissible in order to deceive an "enemy."

Muslim (32:6303) - "...he did not hear that exemption was granted in anything what the people speak as lie but in three cases: in battle, for bringing reconciliation amongst persons and the narration of the words of the husband to his wife, and the narration of the words of a wife to her husband (in a twisted form in order to bring reconciliation between them)."

Bukhari (50:369) - Recounts the murder of a poet, Ka'b bin al-Ashraf, at Muhammad's insistence. The men who volunteered for the assassination used dishonesty to gain Ka'b's trust, pretending that they had turned against Muhammad. This drew the victim out of his fortress, whereupon he was brutally slaughtered despite putting up a ferocious struggle for his life.

From Islamic Law:

Reliance of the Traveler (p. 746 - 8.2) - "Speaking is a means to achieve objectives. If a praiseworthy aim is attainable through both telling the truth and lying, it is unlawful to accomplish through lying because there is no need for it. When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible (N:i.e. when the purpose of lying is to circumvent someone who is preventing one from doing something permissible), and obligatory to lie if the goal is obligatory... it is religiously precautionary in all cases to employ words that give a misleading impression...

"One should compare the bad consequences entailed by lying to those entailed by telling the truth, and if the consequences of telling the truth are more damaging, one is entitled to lie.


Additional Notes:

Muslims are allowed to lie to unbelievers in order to defeat them. The two forms are:

Taqiyya - Saying something that isn't true.

Kitman - Lying by omission. An example would be when Muslim apologists quote only a fragment of verse 5:32 (that if anyone kills "it shall be as if he had killed all mankind") while neglecting to mention that the rest of the verse (and the next) mandate murder in undefined cases of "corruption" and "mischief."

Though not called Taqiyya by name, Muhammad clearly used deception when he signed a 10-year treaty with the Meccans that allowed him access to their city while he secretly prepared his own forces for a takeover. The unsuspecting residents were conquered in easy fashion after he broke the treaty two years later, and some of the people in the city who had trusted him at his word were executed.

Another example of lying is when Muhammad used deception to trick his personal enemies into letting down their guard and exposing themselves to slaughter by pretending to seek peace. This happened in the case of Ka'b bin al-Ashraf (as previously noted) and again later against Usayr ibn Zarim, a surviving leader of the Banu Nadir tribe, which had been evicted from their home in Medina by the Muslims.

At the time, Usayr ibn Zarim was attempting to gather an armed force against the Muslims from among a tribe allied with the Quraish (against which Muhammad had already declared war). Muhammad's "emissaries" went to ibn Zarim and persuaded him to leave his safe haven on the pretext of meeting with the prophet of Islam in Medina to discuss peace. Once vulnerable, the leader and his thirty companions were massacred by the Muslims with ease, belying the probability that they were mostly unarmed, having been given a guarantee of safe passage (Ibn Ishaq 981).

Such was the reputation of Muslims for lying and then killing that even those who "accepted Islam" did not feel entirely safe. The fate of the Jadhima is tragic evidence for this. When Muslim "missionaries" approached their tribe one of the members insisted that they would be slaughtered even though they had already "converted" to Islam to avoid just such a demise. However, the others were convinced that they could trust the Muslim leader's promise that they would not be harmed if they simply offered no resistance. (After convincing the skeptic to lay down his arms, the unarmed men of the tribe were quickly tied up and beheaded - Ibn Ishaq 834 & 837).

Today's Muslims often try to justify Muhammad's murder of poets and others who criticized him at Medina by saying that they broke a treaty by their actions. Yet, these same apologists place little value on treaties broken by Muslims. From Muhammad to Saddam Hussein, promises made to non-Muslim are distinctly non-binding in the Muslim mindset.

Leaders in the Arab world routinely say one thing to English-speaking audiences and then something entirely different to their own people in Arabic. Yassir Arafat was famous for telling Western newspapers about his desire for peace with Israel, then turning right around and whipping Palestinians into a hateful and violent frenzy against Jews.

The 9/11 hijackers practiced deception by going into bars and drinking alcohol, thus throwing off potential suspicion that they were fundamentalists plotting jihad. This effort worked so well, in fact, that even weeks after 9/11, John Walsh, the host of a popular American television show, said that their bar trips were evidence of 'hypocrisy.'

The transmission from Flight 93 records the hijackers telling their doomed passengers that there is "a bomb on board" but that everyone will "be safe" as long as "their demands are met." Obviously none of these things were true, but these men, who were so intensely devoted to Islam that they were willing to "slay and be slain for the cause of Allah" (as the Qur'an puts it) saw nothing wrong with employing Taqiyya in order to facilitate their mission of mass murder.

The Islamic Society of North America (ISNA) insists that it "has not now or ever been involved with the Muslim Brotherhood, or supported any covert, illegal, or terrorist activity or organization." In fact, it was created by the Muslim Brotherhood and has bankrolled Hamas. At least nine founders or board members of ISNA have been accused by prosecutors of supporting terrorism.

Prior to engineering several deadly terror plots, such as the Fort Hood massacre and the attempt to blow up a Detroit-bound airliner, American cleric Anwar al-Awlaki was regularly sought out by NPR, PBS and even government leaders to expound on the peaceful nature of Islam.

The Quran says in several places that Allah is the best at deceiving people. An interesting side note is verse 7:99, which says that the only people who feel secure from Allah are actually those who will perish in Hell. Taken literally, this would mean that those Muslims who arrogantly assume that they will enter heaven are in for a rude surprise (such are the hazards of worshipping an all-powerful deceiver).

The near absence of Qur'anic verse and reliable Hadith that encourage truthfulness is somewhat surprising, given that many Muslims are convinced that their religion teaches honesty. In fact, it is because of this ingrained belief that many Muslims are quite honest. When lying is addressed in the Qur'an, it is nearly always in reference to the "lies against Allah" - referring to the Jews and Christians who rejected Muhammad's claim to being a prophet.

Finally, the circumstances by which Muhammad allowed a believer to lie to a non-spouse are limited to those that either advance the cause of Islam or enable a Muslim to avoid harm to his well-being (and presumably that of other Muslims as well). Although this should be kept very much in mind when dealing with matters of global security, such as Iran's nuclear intentions, it is not grounds for assuming that the Muslim one might personally encounter on the street or in the workplace is any less honest than anyone else.


Additional Reading: Taqiyya about Taqiyya (Raymond Ibrahim)

that ^^ is a lot of hypocrisy and subterfuge.

but to consider the shortcoming of the one converting people to christian belief...



i think the pastor's motive for converting people indiscriminately and in unprecedented numbers is questionable as well...

i remember some kind of Fatwa being Issued about when they are not on their homeland, they can follow another religion, but they have to switch back when they get home.

I looked into what Fatwa(s) were and how they are supposed to be applied.

Seems like deliberate misinterpretation and deception to use it as reason to switch major religions as per country of residence, for those with an ulterior motive.

Doesnt the quran supposedly forbid them from doing this?

I ate some tamales one time and they gave me a Fatwa. Whew!

Refugees who are trying to use religion to stay into a country that is safer for them and or their families is in a way understandable. I mean really if you and or your family wee caught in a war situation wouldn't you think of ways to leave that country?

I understand that terrorist is all ways a worry and that is understandable. Perhaps there could be a system in place were refugees could be monitored while residing in their hosts country?

Actually under Yasser Arafat's PLO, the Hamas tried but could never raise even their heads. Yasser had visited India, that was before he brokered a deal with the Israeli Government changing the 'refugee status' of his people to 'secondary citizens'; in their own land.

Leads one to think over why the great leaders of WWII marked out strips of territories surrounding Jerusalem as the homeland for all European Jews. The Jewish faith did not need The Temple; the people had always carried their faith with them. Why not territories from Germany,itself?

Anyway, the Syrian refugees flooding Europe are from the most advanced Muslim societies in the world. Recall the Arab Spring? It sprang in Syria.

it doesn't really what the quran says when an elder can make a verdict on anything he wants... it seems like a plant operation, to make their numbers grow across Europe...of they are just tired of Allah....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiya

Anything that brings more Muslim-raised and Christian-raised people into better community and fellowship seems like a good thing to me. Maybe their shared humanity can help them overcome the 'hatred towards others' which is taught by both religions.

Absolutely right. The elder could be in India and pass a 'fatwa' on a UK citizen!! the fatwa on Salman Rushidie.

A few years ago a fatwa on Sania Mirza (Indian tennis star) cause she wore skirts. Her parents had to beseech the clergy explaining it under the game's dress code. The Indian media, government, courts, other muslims, tennis fans, women's organizations; nobody came out in support of her; no one dared to interfere.

If this unbridled power resides in just about any Mullah then where is the question for ordinary Muslims to dissent? Even a hint of it could have him ostracized from his community; these people may have been conditioned to accept it and don't think of it as 'living under terror'. Like Russians under Soviet Russia(?), East Germans under Soviet Russia?

Extend this line of thought towards the Muslims in the US, say building a large integrated facility for their Mosque. A few years from now, a Mullah wakes up one morning and issues a 'fatwa'. The Law arrests him but the media spreads the news around the world. Law cannot 'arrest the Fatwa'!!

Time for the US Senate to pass a Law on fatwas.
Thanks MM, for articulating what is unspoken in many people's minds.

We could have internment camps.

The Express Tribune

Muslims converting to Christianity in Germany to get asylum

Published: September 4,2015

Amidst heart-wrenching news of migrants trying to seek refuge in European countries, asylum-seeking Muslims in Germany are apparently being baptized and converting to Christianity for one rumored reason: It will increase their chance of staying in the stable European country.

Mohammed Ali Zonoobi is one such Muslim. He bends his head as the priest pours water over his hair and says loudly in a prayer-like manner, “Will you break away from Islam?”.

Zonoobi gives the answer in the affirmative, elevating his hope to stay in Germany as he would be able to say after converting that he can’t go back to his homeland owing to discrimination. His first name is now Martin not Mohammed.

Zonoobi, a carpenter from Iran, arrived in Germany with his family around five months ago. He belongs to the many hundreds of mostly Iranian and Afghan asylum seekers who get converted to Christianity at the evangelical Trinity Church.

Read: Pope Francis terms Europe’s rejection of migrants ‘an act of war’

Pastor Gottfried Martens has been converting these Muslim men and women for quite some time now. He agrees that many convert so that they can stay in Germany but he argues that only 10% of the new converts abandon the church by not attending the mass after christening.

“I know there are — again and again — people coming here because they have some kind of hope regarding their asylum,” Martens said. “I am inviting them to join us because I know that whoever comes here will not be left unchanged.”

Although becoming Christian does not help the ex-Muslims much, there is a slim chance that Germany would deport them to their native countries since they can get punished by death for apostasy.

Germany has been experiencing an unprecedented increase in asylum seekers this year, with migrants’ number reaching up to 800,000 now, an around fourfold increase on last year.

Most of the asylum-seekers come from Muslim countries like Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan. Lately, almost 40% to 50% from Syria and Afghanistan have been allowed to stay in Germany, albeit temporarily.

Germany’s Federal Office for Migration and Refugees asserted that it did not influence on the reasons applicants make while applying for asylum, or they do not get accepted on the basis of their religion and persecution they might face if they return.

But, for Zonoobi and his wife Afsaneh the christening has actually marked a new beginning.

“Now we are free and can be ourselves,” she said. “Most important, I am so happy that our children will have a good future here and can get a good education in Germany.”

The article originally appeared on Fox News

Read more: Christening , Migrants

http://tribune.com.pk/story/950749/muslims-converting-to-christianity-in-germany-to-get-asylum/

Well taqiya or ta'qiya or taqiyaa (lol) is a well known Muslim strategy used in war. Called hudna by some, it allows Muslims to lie and say they want peace. The ceasefire that prompts negotiations is used to rearm, resupply, rest, acquire new fighters, and repair fortifications.

Once the desired level of strength has been achieved, negotiations break off and hostilities resume.

The concept was originally meant to allow for 'little white lies' between Muslims, such as telling your wife she made a nice meal, when in fact it was poorly prepared. As time marched on, the depths of the lies changed.

In regards to conversion, the standard rule in Islam is you have 3 days to return to the religion should you convert. IF you stay converted, then ANY Muslim on the planet has the religious justification to kill you as an apostate.

Going from memory, I suggest you look up Surah 4 (Chapter 4) The Familiy of Imram in the Koran. I think it's Ayah 89 or 92 (Verse 89 or 92)...

"Do not disbelieve as they have disbelieved, lest you be all alike. Do not take from among them a friend or a helper until they fly their home in Allah's way. If they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them."

So don't 'disbelieve' like a non-Muslim. Don't take someone as a friend unless they are Muslim and believes in Islam. If however your Muslim friend goes back to a previous religion they had, then you can kill them like you would a traitor. You can also search them out if you want, you don't have to wait for a chance meeting between the two of you.

Wow is Hitler your hero ?

True

I don't recall seeing 7/11s in any part of Germany.

FDR dood it!