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| Topic: God is NOT a loving god. - part 2 | |
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God exists, so get used to it
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GOD IS WHAT YOU BELIEVE HE IS......LIKE EVERYTHING IN OUR WORLD....... |
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LOL, part 2. I didn't start this, looks like the forum automatically locked the first thread and created a 'part 2' when reaching 50 pages.
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You have that a bit mixed up my friend. Sorry, but I'm not the one who has this whole situation mixed up. Because I don't have a sacred cow to defend. - His "angel" didn't tempt them. He was done kicked out of Heaven prior. At that point, he was no longer an "angel" or in servitude of God. Once again, you are forced to play games with semantics in order to defend Yahweh. The character known as Satan was, according to the story, an angel, regardless of where he was hanging up his wings each night when these events took place. Furthermore, where do you come up with the idea that Satan was kicked out of heaven prior to the events in Eden? Job 1:6-7 6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.7 And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. Besides, whether or not Satan's "Employee of the Month" card had been revoked at the time he screwed with Eve's head, is irrelevant to my point. The point is that Satan, who was an angel to start with, and thus a far more advanced form of life than a human, was like a fully grown adult in comparison to Eve. So, God was at best negligent for allowing an adult to tempt a toddler. (Relatively speaking.) - The angels are not "children" of God. They are a creation. Only man/woman are called children of God. Still more semantics. God created the angels. Therefore, he gave them life, which makes him their father. Ergo, they are his children. Besides, as I said, this is irrelevant to the point. But, I suspect that you know that anyway. You have to muddy the waters in an attempt to save God's rep. - Your example of a father letting his teenage son falls on it's face. As again angels are not "children" of God. They are a creation for a purpose, purpose depending on the angel in question. No, it doesn't. See my comment above. - Is a child not responsible for his/her own actions regardless of whom might have tempted them or told/ask them too do it? That depends upon the level of emotional maturity that the child possesses. For example, juveniles are generally not punished as harshly as adults for committing the same crimes, because they do not possess the same level of emotional maturity. And what "real" punishment do you feel in your life today from this? Well, according to most Christians, if I don't toe the GODfather's line, I will be obliterated one day. That not only constitutes a punishment, but it's a real dick punishment, too, since I'm not the one who ate the damn fruit to start with. - Upset that you're not a mortal? What?! The last time I checked, I was very much a mortal. - Upset you have to get your own food? Kill/hunt, ect.. now in store? - Upset you get sick? No, I'm not upset about those things, because that's just the nature of the world, and the truth is, your god had nothing to do with any of it. However, I am arguing the point from your perspective for the sake of argument. And I maintain that we shouldn't have to experience any of the negative consequences of God's judgment against Adam and Eve, because we had nothing to do with it. It is very unloving of Yahweh to punish us in any way for what they did. - Upset women feel the pain of child birth? Well, now that you mention it...YES! I think it was a total DICK move on Yahweh's part to decree that all women, for all the centuries past should have to suffer the extreme pain associated with passing something the size of a small watermelon through a bodily orifice not nearly large enough to allow a small watermelon to pass through just because he was feeling really pissy with Eve. What side effect of coming out of the garden has negatively effected you in such a way to spend your day's time putting God down with insults? Which end of the scroll would you like for me to start with? And he didn't "have" his son do anything. Jesus willfully took that cross upon himself. And if it wouldn't have been for mankind's actions or inability to obey, that would not have had to happen. Or their lack of faith in Jesus being God or whom he claimed to be. Again with the semantics. Can you not see that the point is that the sacrifice was unnecessary? The book of Hebrews says (I don't have time to quote it at present.) that Jesus presented the value of his shed blood to God after he took the stairway to Heaven, right? I maintain that the whole bloody sacrifice ******** is a hold-over from other ancient myths/rituals, and that it is a ridiculous notion to believe that GOD "had" or even "allowed" his son to die a horrible, bloody death in order to pay back a debt to himself!! And, if we were talking about any other deity doing the same thing, you would agree with me. |
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just posting because I want to watch this thread.
While I do believe in God, and if asked, I would state that I'm a non-denominational Christian. But I do like to see differing viewpoints because in the end we all die and will learn then what the truth is. In reality NO ONE knows what happens when we die. It's simply a matter of faith in what one believes or doesn't believe when we die. In the mean-time we can learn from each other. |
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You have that a bit mixed up my friend. Sorry, but I'm not the one who has this whole situation mixed up. Because I don't have a sacred cow to defend. - His "angel" didn't tempt them. He was done kicked out of Heaven prior. At that point, he was no longer an "angel" or in servitude of God. Once again, you are forced to play games with semantics in order to defend Yahweh. The character known as Satan was, according to the story, an angel, regardless of where he was hanging up his wings each night when these events took place. Furthermore, where do you come up with the idea that Satan was kicked out of heaven prior to the events in Eden? Job 1:6-7 6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.7 And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. Besides, whether or not Satan's "Employee of the Month" card had been revoked at the time he screwed with Eve's head, is irrelevant to my point. The point is that Satan, who was an angel to start with, and thus a far more advanced form of life than a human, was like a fully grown adult in comparison to Eve. So, God was at best negligent for allowing an adult to tempt a toddler. (Relatively speaking.) - The angels are not "children" of God. They are a creation. Only man/woman are called children of God. Still more semantics. God created the angels. Therefore, he gave them life, which makes him their father. Ergo, they are his children. Besides, as I said, this is irrelevant to the point. But, I suspect that you know that anyway. You have to muddy the waters in an attempt to save God's rep. - Your example of a father letting his teenage son falls on it's face. As again angels are not "children" of God. They are a creation for a purpose, purpose depending on the angel in question. No, it doesn't. See my comment above. - Is a child not responsible for his/her own actions regardless of whom might have tempted them or told/ask them too do it? That depends upon the level of emotional maturity that the child possesses. For example, juveniles are generally not punished as harshly as adults for committing the same crimes, because they do not possess the same level of emotional maturity. And what "real" punishment do you feel in your life today from this? Well, according to most Christians, if I don't toe the GODfather's line, I will be obliterated one day. That not only constitutes a punishment, but it's a real dick punishment, too, since I'm not the one who ate the damn fruit to start with. - Upset that you're not a mortal? What?! The last time I checked, I was very much a mortal. - Upset you have to get your own food? Kill/hunt, ect.. now in store? - Upset you get sick? No, I'm not upset about those things, because that's just the nature of the world, and the truth is, your god had nothing to do with any of it. However, I am arguing the point from your perspective for the sake of argument. And I maintain that we shouldn't have to experience any of the negative consequences of God's judgment against Adam and Eve, because we had nothing to do with it. It is very unloving of Yahweh to punish us in any way for what they did. - Upset women feel the pain of child birth? Well, now that you mention it...YES! I think it was a total DICK move on Yahweh's part to decree that all women, for all the centuries past should have to suffer the extreme pain associated with passing something the size of a small watermelon through a bodily orifice not nearly large enough to allow a small watermelon to pass through just because he was feeling really pissy with Eve. What side effect of coming out of the garden has negatively effected you in such a way to spend your day's time putting God down with insults? Which end of the scroll would you like for me to start with? And he didn't "have" his son do anything. Jesus willfully took that cross upon himself. And if it wouldn't have been for mankind's actions or inability to obey, that would not have had to happen. Or their lack of faith in Jesus being God or whom he claimed to be. Again with the semantics. Can you not see that the point is that the sacrifice was unnecessary? The book of Hebrews says (I don't have time to quote it at present.) that Jesus presented the value of his shed blood to God after he took the stairway to Heaven, right? I maintain that the whole bloody sacrifice ******** is a hold-over from other ancient myths/rituals, and that it is a ridiculous notion to believe that GOD "had" or even "allowed" his son to die a horrible, bloody death in order to pay back a debt to himself!! And, if we were talking about any other deity doing the same thing, you would agree with me. Once again, you are forced to play games with semantics in order to defend Yahweh. The character known as Satan was, according to the story, an angel, regardless of where he was hanging up his wings each night when these events took place. Furthermore, where do you come up with the idea that Satan was kicked out of heaven prior to the events in Eden? Please forgive me on my ignorance in this specific area. Can look up and search if needed, but Satan as far as I know was kicked out before the Garden. Thus the snake in the Garden eg., Satan. Isaiah 14:13-14 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Thus the reason he was kicked from Heaven. |
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You have that a bit mixed up my friend. Sorry, but I'm not the one who has this whole situation mixed up. Because I don't have a sacred cow to defend. - His "angel" didn't tempt them. He was done kicked out of Heaven prior. At that point, he was no longer an "angel" or in servitude of God. Once again, you are forced to play games with semantics in order to defend Yahweh. The character known as Satan was, according to the story, an angel, regardless of where he was hanging up his wings each night when these events took place. Furthermore, where do you come up with the idea that Satan was kicked out of heaven prior to the events in Eden? Job 1:6-7 6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.7 And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. Besides, whether or not Satan's "Employee of the Month" card had been revoked at the time he screwed with Eve's head, is irrelevant to my point. The point is that Satan, who was an angel to start with, and thus a far more advanced form of life than a human, was like a fully grown adult in comparison to Eve. So, God was at best negligent for allowing an adult to tempt a toddler. (Relatively speaking.) - The angels are not "children" of God. They are a creation. Only man/woman are called children of God. Still more semantics. God created the angels. Therefore, he gave them life, which makes him their father. Ergo, they are his children. Besides, as I said, this is irrelevant to the point. But, I suspect that you know that anyway. You have to muddy the waters in an attempt to save God's rep. - Your example of a father letting his teenage son falls on it's face. As again angels are not "children" of God. They are a creation for a purpose, purpose depending on the angel in question. No, it doesn't. See my comment above. - Is a child not responsible for his/her own actions regardless of whom might have tempted them or told/ask them too do it? That depends upon the level of emotional maturity that the child possesses. For example, juveniles are generally not punished as harshly as adults for committing the same crimes, because they do not possess the same level of emotional maturity. And what "real" punishment do you feel in your life today from this? Well, according to most Christians, if I don't toe the GODfather's line, I will be obliterated one day. That not only constitutes a punishment, but it's a real dick punishment, too, since I'm not the one who ate the damn fruit to start with. - Upset that you're not a mortal? What?! The last time I checked, I was very much a mortal. - Upset you have to get your own food? Kill/hunt, ect.. now in store? - Upset you get sick? No, I'm not upset about those things, because that's just the nature of the world, and the truth is, your god had nothing to do with any of it. However, I am arguing the point from your perspective for the sake of argument. And I maintain that we shouldn't have to experience any of the negative consequences of God's judgment against Adam and Eve, because we had nothing to do with it. It is very unloving of Yahweh to punish us in any way for what they did. - Upset women feel the pain of child birth? Well, now that you mention it...YES! I think it was a total DICK move on Yahweh's part to decree that all women, for all the centuries past should have to suffer the extreme pain associated with passing something the size of a small watermelon through a bodily orifice not nearly large enough to allow a small watermelon to pass through just because he was feeling really pissy with Eve. What side effect of coming out of the garden has negatively effected you in such a way to spend your day's time putting God down with insults? Which end of the scroll would you like for me to start with? And he didn't "have" his son do anything. Jesus willfully took that cross upon himself. And if it wouldn't have been for mankind's actions or inability to obey, that would not have had to happen. Or their lack of faith in Jesus being God or whom he claimed to be. Again with the semantics. Can you not see that the point is that the sacrifice was unnecessary? The book of Hebrews says (I don't have time to quote it at present.) that Jesus presented the value of his shed blood to God after he took the stairway to Heaven, right? I maintain that the whole bloody sacrifice ******** is a hold-over from other ancient myths/rituals, and that it is a ridiculous notion to believe that GOD "had" or even "allowed" his son to die a horrible, bloody death in order to pay back a debt to himself!! And, if we were talking about any other deity doing the same thing, you would agree with me. Once again, you are forced to play games with semantics in order to defend Yahweh. The character known as Satan was, according to the story, an angel, regardless of where he was hanging up his wings each night when these events took place. Furthermore, where do you come up with the idea that Satan was kicked out of heaven prior to the events in Eden? Please forgive me on my ignorance in this specific area. Can look up and search if needed, but Satan as far as I know was kicked out before the Garden. Thus the snake in the Garden eg., Satan. Isaiah 14:13-14 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Thus the reason he was kicked from Heaven. Well, the passage in Job that I quoted for you depicts Satan as appearing before God with the other "sons of God," and he clearly states that he came there from earth. So, it certainly reads to me like he was supposed to be in Heaven at the time. And, Job's story obviously takes place after the events in Eden. Unless you want to posit that Job was one of El's humans that were created in Genesis Chapter 1, prior to Yahweh's failed creations in Eden, that is. If not, then it appears that Satan was still allowed in Heaven after the events in Eden. Of course, there are several different ways we can contort ourselves if we want to come up with tortured explanations to defend either premise. Some apologists argue that Satan was cast out twice! Again, this only serves to underscore, yet again, my point that God would not have used the written word as a medium to promulgate his all-important instruction manual to us. There are just too many opportunities for confusion and misunderstanding. Speaking of which... Isaiah 14 does not refer to Satan, as many scholars, as well as theologians, realize. It is referring to a king of Babylon. There are many reasons that this is obvious, not the least of which is the context of the chapter. But, I can also point to something in the very passage you quoted that indicates this. Note that in verse 13 it says "...I will ascend into heaven..." This makes perfect sense when applied to an earthly king, with aspirations of "godhood," but makes little sense when applied to a being who had already existed in heaven for who knows how long. Early Christian writers misapplied this passage to Satan, and the tradition has largely continued, despite the efforts of Jewish Scholars and Rabbis (Folks who can actually read Hebrew!) to point out the linguistic and contextual problems associated with this misapplication of parts of their sacred writings. |
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just posting because I want to watch this thread. While I do believe in God, and if asked, I would state that I'm a non-denominational Christian. But I do like to see differing viewpoints because in the end we all die and will learn then what the truth is. In reality NO ONE knows what happens when we die. It's simply a matter of faith in what one believes or doesn't believe when we die. In the mean-time we can learn from each other. Well, welcome to the party, Sir! Come on in...the water's fine... :) |
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Sorry for this, when the thread was locked I had thought the site mods shut it down, didn't realize it was merely to be continued. I sent a message to cowboy to continue the convo but this belongs here.
Lazarus102 about 5 hours ago "God didn't make these people rich, or you poor, or me poor, or anything to do with money in any way." Then why does god need so much money, why do the churches not pay taxes, why is a collection plate handed around in churches? "Servitude to the rich and famous? I personally don't serve anyone/anything but God almighty. Sorry you feel you need to serve the rich and famous" So you're saying that you don't have a job? You live off of the land or work for a family business? "What does right and famous have anything to do with love? Think it takes either of the two have anything to do with love?" Think you meant rich, not 'right'. Also misinterpreted that entire bit. I was saying that few privileged people get to live happy lives through love OR money OR fame. Not all of us are so lucky and the majority in general are not. "Where do you get the notion God "sent" anyone to do anything such as this? And Satan wasn't exiled for murdering another angel, where did you get that notion as well?" Perhaps we heard different religious texts but what I heard as a child is that Satan tried to claim himself as god's equal and when god pretty much said "nope" he murdered an angel to prove his power. It was likely a bit different from that as I heard that well over 20 years ago but that's the jest of it. Sorry for the PM but the thread locked and I wanted to tie up a few loose ends. Not sure if thread was locked by mods or if it auto-locked when trying to exceed 50 pages (some forums have page limits on the threads). CowboyGH about 3 hours ago "So you're saying that you don't have a job? You live off of the land or work for a family business?" How is that in any way a "servitude" to the rich and famous? Most to all the rid famous aren't that way because they are famous farmers. ---- "Perhaps we heard different religious texts but what I heard as a child is that Satan tried to claim himself as god's equal and when god pretty much said "nope" he murdered an angel to prove his power." Satan was kicked out of Heaven for claiming/feeling equal to God. He thought himself to be able to do a greater job then God was doing. And even maybe better then God. Thus he was booted out of Heaven and assumingly the reason God allows Satan to continue to do what he wishes... to a degree of course. This last part is just perspective speaking. |
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God exists, so get used to it Just remember what I told you about Zeus, Rooster.  And, here's something else for you to ponder:  And...  |
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"How is that in any way a "servitude" to the rich and famous? Most to all the rid famous aren't that way because they are famous farmers."
Gotta learn to read between the lines cowboy. I mean that most of us work/slave away for the rich and famous; whether that be Mcdonalds, Tim Hortons, Starbucks, putting our 20-30$ an hour worth of work in and getting our 10$ an hour for it and getting yelled at if we aren't working hard/fast enough. Modern society sucks for the average man. Not to make this personal(intentionally) but I did notice in your profile that your profession is 'disabled' and so I can see how you wouldn't see work-a-day life as being punishment if that isn't the life that you've been stuck with. "Satan was kicked out of Heaven for claiming/feeling equal to God. He thought himself to be able to do a greater job then God was doing. And even maybe better then God. Thus he was booted out of Heaven and assumingly the reason God allows Satan to continue to do what he wishes... to a degree of course. This last part is just perspective speaking." Can anyone back me up on this or have I got it all wrong? I was sure he was booted from heaven after murdering a fellow angel. |
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I'm not aware of any scripture that says that, Lazarus. The only thing that comes to my mind that is even anywhere close is this:
Revelation 12:7-9 "7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him." Since this passage refers to the angels warring with each other, and wars produce casualties, perhaps that was what you were thinking of? This is an even bigger shot in the dark, but Jesus did say that Satan was a "murderer from the beginning." (No specific reference to angel-cide, though.) John 8:44 "44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it." That's all I can come up with off the top of my head. |
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God exists, so get used to it Just remember what I told you about Zeus, Rooster. And, here's something else for you to ponder: And... Thor  You false puny gods are no match for the Master of the Universe. I'm talking about the most powerful being ever and you come back with myths and legends  How lame
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Perpetual Motion-Thread?
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Lucifer = Lux Fare = Bearer Of Light!
The ancient Prometheus! |
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Some topics shall never die. :- D
You can't spell fundamentalism without fun. LOL |
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God exists, so get used to it Just remember what I told you about Zeus, Rooster. And, here's something else for you to ponder: And... Thor You false puny gods are no match for the Master of the Universe. I'm talking about the most powerful being ever and you come back with myths and legends How lame "Master of the Universe?!" PLEASE!! Walking on water? PFFT! Thor can just fly over the water. Calming a storm? Kid's stuff! Thor can call up ten storms without even breaking a sweat! Expelling demons? HA! Thor doesn't even have to expel the demons, because they flee in terror the moment they see him coming! And, I haven't even gotten to ODIN, yet. You would do well to repent from your blasphemies, Rooster. I like you, so I'd hate to see you smitten. And, don't forget about Zeus! Zeus can- Well, wait a minute, let me check in on Zeus... Ah, well...he's still busy with those comely ladies. But, if he ever decides to take a break...oh, boy...your "Master of the Universe" is in for a good ***-whuppin'! |
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Lucifer = Lux Fare = Bearer Of Light! The ancient Prometheus! There ya' go. And, like Prometheus, he was punished for enlightening humanity. It's also interesting to note that Prometheus was sentenced to eternal torture for his actions. Sounds like Hell to me. 
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God exists, so get used to it Just remember what I told you about Zeus, Rooster. And, here's something else for you to ponder: And... Thor You false puny gods are no match for the Master of the Universe. I'm talking about the most powerful being ever and you come back with myths and legends How lame "Master of the Universe?!" PLEASE!! Walking on water? PFFT! Thor can just fly over the water. Calming a storm? Kid's stuff! Thor can call up ten storms without even breaking a sweat! Expelling demons? HA! Thor doesn't even have to expel the demons, because they flee in terror the moment they see him coming! And, I haven't even gotten to ODIN, yet. You would do well to repent from your blasphemies, Rooster. I like you, so I'd hate to see you smitten. And, don't forget about Zeus! Zeus can- Well, wait a minute, let me check in on Zeus... Ah, well...he's still busy with those comely ladies. But, if he ever decides to take a break...oh, boy...your "Master of the Universe" is in for a good ***-whuppin'! Right right right, all that is fine dandy but there's one thing you seem to be forgetting: it's that God exists and you... well, you just have to get used to it 
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Some topics shall never die. :- D You can't spell fundamentalism without fun. LOL Very true! And, as long as we remain vigilant, and don't allow fundamentalists (Of any belief system.) to gain too much power and influence, it can remain fun. No beheadings, or scourgings, or time on the rack for me, thanks! Similarly, you can't spell believer without lie. Note that I am not accusing individual believers of lying, rather it is they who have been lied to. I learned this the hard way myself. |
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