i do drink once n a while

and i will join ya turtle

This is ridiculous. While I'm not going to get into politics, this notion of "if you're not x, then y" is nonsense. My experience was the exact opposite of what you describe.

So who's viewpoint is more valuable?

Neither. They're both equally valid perspectives.

so if you need an operation you gonna go to the doctor

that listens to others

or the one that has been in the operating room

Because a doctor has been to college, not because he's in the operating room. A janitor goes into the operating room as well.

And if that's true, I was over there.

And they don't want us here.

Guess I must be right then, but that logic.

well you never qualified you post by saying that

then yer the first from being there that i have heard that from

where were you and what was your duties if i may ask

like to learn more about what goes on over there

not closed minded but i do prefer to here from those that know

not those that watch a news program and swear they know it all

i went to see if you had it on profile

i see it says defense contracting

is that private contractor isn't it

if you go by the basic news i could see them wanting

private contractors out

any u s military person i have spoken with

says they want them there

so who know what to think

but comparing private defense contractor response from iraqis

would possibly have a different response than the

govt military would have

kinda maybe like apples and oranges

just cause someone may not want an apple does not mean they

would say no if offered an orange

just a thought

The vast majority of people I speak with, including Iraqis, do not want us there. That includes soldiers, contractors, plumbers, they don't care. They don't want us there anymore than you'd want a Chinese soldier marching through Columbus. No matter what internal issues you're having, no one wants a foreign power walking through their capitol.


edit: I shouldn't have to qualify my posts with anything. My experience is irrelevant in an issue such as this. It's common sense. Even the Kurds, the most discriminated group in the country want us gone at this point. I should also say I don't give a **** if we're in Iraq or not. I'm merely informing you of the fact that it's human nature to not want someone else meddling in your affairs.

sorry but i have been around long enough to know

not to believe it just because someone says it

and with this logic we better get out of germany and turkey

and every other country we have a military presence in

which is ok with me

i'm a little tired of ""our"" govt using our money

to protect the world

We're not occupying Germany and Turkey, now you're grasping at straws.

We also pay heavily for those stations. It's the difference between having a roommate who lives in the garage and you never see, and having someone from down the street kick in your door and kick you in the balls every day.

Your analogy is incredibly flawed.

So which is it? You believe what people say, or you don't believe what people say? I could post a hundred soldier accounts of claiming we're not welcome there. Also, I'd LOVE to hear how many soldiers you speak with, and what they do over there. The only ones who think like that are the ones who don't really speak to Iraqis.

that is a good point

maybe they did not

i am not trying to fight with you

i just want to understand

the situation

i have spoken to about a dozen

most were in a transportation unit

not sure what the few others did

and as far as which is it

i do not know you there for i have no clue of

your agenda or what type of personality you have

a couple of those i have talked to

i have known for years and

do not think they would outright lie about it

not saying you would but i do not know you

it seems as tho you want a war with me about this issue

and i am not going to have one

i have no ill feelings for you

i am just discussing a topic

and i am sure if i told you was in korea and told you

about a hot political issue you would want some background

if not then oh well

If faced with a soldier with a gun and power to kill you, naturally you will act happy with them. Soldier's accounts differ, some see the resentment, others do not. The people of Iraq have been terrorized by us. They fear us. The people on the street talking to a nuetral party are more believable any day over the the accounts of our soldiers. Besides that the soldiers, some anyway, have to see a positive to make them comfortable with what they are doing there. They will see a biased view. It is understandable and not to blame.

Iraqis never wanted us there. We preemptively struck their country with no provocation and we are illegally occupying their country.

Do I think this will change and we will withdraw? No, the mess made over there by the illustrious babyshrub will be a long drawn out affair with no end in sight. Does it make us right at any level, hell no!!!

The people who wear the rose colored glasses and choose to believe the version provided by a political machine designed to take America to the toilet of tyranny are taking the easy road. It makes them feel better to believe we are the great "saviors" of the world. Truth be known we are at this point no better than saddam. We are forcing them, through threat of their lives, to concede to our wishes.

That answers my question. Those who fight day in and day out, talk to Iraqis in the FIELD (not in the green zone, where everything is kept clean and tidy), and have to clean up the bodies along side security forces when things get screwed up, know we're not wanted here. Support troops have no way of really knowing what's going on.

edit: As far as your other comment, this isn't about politics. I don't care if we leave or stay. It's very low on my political priority list, when so many freedoms are being taken away here at home.

well i can not agree more with you on that line

-------------

but you still have not said what you did in iraq

What I did overseas is irrelevant. I'm well aware of the dubious reputation my career field obtained, and rightfully so.

interesting

Well, the one flaw I see in the contested statement is this:

Why would an Iraqi that dislikes US Soldiers be having a calm, civilized conversation with a US Soldier? I highly doubt they would even speak to someone they disliked, much less give even one soldier a bulleted, itemized list of things they dislike about the US occupation.

If you live in Iraq and are pissed off, you either are angry and trying to trod through life, or you're trying to kill US Soldiers. Either, or. (Or you're possibly voting in elections...) I wouldn't imagine anyone that is angry would calmly verbalize their issues with the occupation to soldier, for fear of getting locked up or shot (regardless of whether or not that would actually happen).

Soldiers aren't stupid; they know exactly what's going on. They know they're just police in a civil war now. They're not dumb.

I'm sure the Iraqis are glad Saddam is gone, but the country as a whole was not mature enough to try and liberate themselves. You cannot force a liberation upon people unwilling to die for their country, themselves. That's why we're in the situation we've got. You cannot force a new system of government on people. It just doesn't work. Like all revolutions, you're going to have to be willing to die for a new tomorrow, and clearly the Iraqis were not ready to do so. Maybe sometime in the future, but now wasn't the time. And politically they're dragging their feet. Expecting the US to just fix the coutnry is not a reality. A 3 way civil war is going to break out (...officially) and they'll probably divide Iraq into three states. And those three states will have perfect chances for getting some crazy dictator as a ruler, since people in need are willing to give up their rights. And now you're back to square-one, back in 2002, except now you've got 3 seperate states instead of a partially unified Iraq, all of which hate each other even more because of violence during the Iraq war.

Yeah, with a future like that I'm sure they'll all just support us alright. The Kurds maybe, but that's it.

Dandy.

yes i think i will have to agree with you eind

after all how can what

one person did overseas be irrelevant

when at the same time they say

support troops would not have a clue

i would have to think that a body guard

for some one that could afford one

would have less of a clue

Because what someone did overseas doesn't change COMMON SENSE.

COMMON SENSE.

COMMON SENSE.

I said Support troops don't speak to people in the field. I'm sorry that you are completely ignorant of every historical activity since the dawn of humanity.

Please find me one example of a country supporting an occupying force. Not even France wanted the US to stick around after WW2. People like you always make me chuckle.

"This is the way it is because this guy told me it was!"

One day you'll figure it out when the US ultimately pulls out of Iraq and the American flag starts being burned in the street in Basra. Oh wait, it already is.

I don't entirely understand exactly what you're saying in that post, but I'm assuming you're trying to use some kind of sarcasm. All I'm saying is that just because one soldier says they heard an Iraqi say "I SUPPORT THE US INVASION OF MY COUNTRY!" doesn't mean that the rest of Iraq supports the US presence. It's illogical to assume that. There country was at the very least stable before we hopped inside their country. Saddam was not a good guy, but he kept everything in order, far better than we've been doing.

I don't doubt that a few soldiers might hear some Iraqis say they support the US presence. Regardless of whether they support the US led Iraq invasion to oust Saddam, what I'm saying is that the overwhelmingly logical conclusion is that Iraqis do not want a foreign presence in their country.

You wouldn't want that in your country. I wouldn't want that in my country. Why would anyone want a foreign military in their country. It makes zero sense. Which is why I don't think this argument should even continue.

Regardless of foreign support, we need to support our own troops by getting them home. The soldiers are getting screwed by our country by redeploying soldiers over and over again that have already valiantly served their country... come on... any Patriot worth anything would see that's wrong.

I refuse to fight anymore about this. Your argument has been disassembled and analyzed. No hard feelings towards you, I don't doubt whatever soldier you're referencing experienced what you said, but if you think about it logically, as you should be (as you probably are... hopefully) it only makes sense for the majority of the Iraqis not to want us there. I will give you a freebie though, that the Kurds might want us there as a buffer with Turkey, but other than that, I can see no majorities wanting the US presence there, and only minorities and single isolated cases where soldiers happen to get electricity and water pumping into a neighborhood (or other services). But how many neighborhoods have been leveled in comparison to those that have been repaired. The ratio is skewed. Refugees are everywhere.... there are far more children growing up without parents that will eventually turn into terrorists. The more innocent lives that get taken the more future US hating terrorists you create.

You must understand now, and if you don't, God in heaven, please help us, because I don't think we can make it any simpler and clearer than that.