This thread asks the question,

“What is real thought?”

Here is my personal philosophy:

Thought is a signal that carries information or instructions. This signal originates from a thinking center and arises through the mind. The mind is not the brain but it is that which organizes chaos and it is a universal energy field that processes information relevant to consciousness which operates throughout the universe.

Programs are instructions and information that respond to signals. Programs may be instructed to run automatically or they may lay dormant until they receive a signal which carries instructions.

A computer program that has been instructed to run automatically when you boot up your computer is only following its programing. Its ‘thinking’ is limited entirely by its programing.

Cells still in your body are responding to signals from your brain. They respond to thought in the form of signals. A cell that has been removed from your body and is growing in a petri dish and continues live, resorts to following its programing and all its ‘thinking’ is limited by its programing.

So-called “thinking” that is entirely limited by its programming is not ‘real thought.’

Real thought is the signal that originates from a thinking center.

The next million dollar question of course is “What is a thinking center?”

In the computer scenario, the thinking center is the human user.

In the body scenario, the thinking center is an individual quanta of consciousness.


This thread arises from this topic from another thread:

*************************************************************

I wrote:




Jeremy wrote:

I don't know what real thought is ,but I am really thinking about it

I believe you covered it..

Most excellent explanationThat certainly got me really thinking about real thoughts

Mirror you are hilarious.

According to modern neuroscience and scanning techniques...

One has a thought. Chemicals are produced which will affect emotion. An electrical neuro-transmission is sent from the origin of that thought to the thinking center in the brain. One then becomes aware of the thought.

What triggers the thought?

Something outside of your physical self... Or chemical/electrical interaction in the brain?

Sense perception.

What separates humans from the rest of the species, is our ability for ABSTRACT THINKING. Therefore all of the boilogically orinted thoughts (that other species also posess) may be discarded from the discussion.

That narrows the scope of the discussion only to Abstract thoughts -- especially those that are unique or Creative -- because that's, essentially, what makes it a Real Thought! (i.e. a thought that advances our understanding of the Universe) ********************************************************
********************

You said:

"One has a thought. Chemicals are produced which will affect emotion. An electrical neuro-transmission is sent from the origin of that thought to the thinking center in the brain.

Where is the origin of the thought? (I don't believe that "sense perception" is the origin of thought.)


What do these neuroscientists consider to be identified as "the thinking center" of the brain? Where is that center???

I don't think these neuroscientists have found the "thinking center" of the brain. The brain only processes information, like a computer. It is somewhat automatic.

Sensory information is not "the origin of the thought."

It should read:

"One has a thought. Chemicals are produced which will affect emotion. An electrical neuro-transmission is sent from the origin of that thought to the Processing center in the brain.


Even so, what would they identify the "processing center" of the brain?

The origin I was referring to is the area indicated by the activity in the brain, prior to the subject being aware of the thought and feelings which result from it.

Sense perception is what causes thought, it encompassess the totality of it. Without it, we have no reason to believe that there could be any, through observation. It is a system, none-the-less.

The thinking(awareness) center is the pre-frontal cortex, although all areas produce affect thought accordingly.

It should also be noted that automatic thoughts do not always tell the truth.

In the course I just took on Neurobiology the lecturer stated very clearly that no one knows where, or if, there even is a 'thinking center' to the brain. And this course is supposed to be cutting-edge material.




According to the course I just took this is definitely not correct. The frontal cortex is associeted with logical thinking. The rest of the cortex is associated with abstract thought that may not be logical at all. In fact, the Frontal Cortex shuts down when we go into REM sleep thus explaining why our dreams can be so abstract and illogical.

Moreover, there was that fellow, Mr Gage, who had his Frontal Cortex blow completely out of his skull yet was able to still walk around and do normal tasks. It is true that it changed him dramatically, but still, it most certainly wasn't he 'thinking center' or he would no long be able to think at all without one.

So you must have misundertood. The Frontal Cortex is perhaps the 'center for logic'. But it's not our 'thinking center'. That's simply incorrect.

Clearly there is far more to human consciousness than logical thought. Logical thought is merely a luxury. An addition to thought in general. And thought itself may very well be nothing more than an addition to awareness.

As far as AI is concerned - maybe I am misunderstanding you, JB, but it sounds like you've decided a priori that 'real thought' cannot originate within the machine - you discuss 'location of origins' and in the case of the machine, you say that the origin is in the person who programmed it. Are you saying we simply cannot build/program a machine to have a 'thinking center' equal to a human brain? Do my first thoughts as a newborn originate in my mother? Have I misunderstood your meaning or intent?

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-the-prefrontal-cortex.htm

I dunno... looks like a thinking center to these folks as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prefrontal_cortex

Although, the cortex may be more appropriately called such.

I think I said that in the case of a computer, the 'thinking center' is the user. (Not the one who wrote the program.) I did not write any of these programs on my computer, but I use them and I am the one who gives them signals and issues orders for them to run. The user is the thinking center of the computer. The computer does not originate thought, it processes information and runs programs.

Yes I mean to imply that a 'real thought' does not originate within the machine. This includes the biological machine called the brain.

You lost me there...

1.)In the case of a brain scan, 'activity' seen or located prior to the subject being aware of the thought and feelings is interesting, but it does not prove where the thought originated from or how that happened.

2.)Sense perception does not 'cause thought' because without awareness, there would be no sense perception.

3.)Where is the proof that the pre-frontal cortex is an awareness center or is the thinking center of the brain?

4.) Automatic thoughts are part of programing. (Whether they are true or not is irrelevant.)

I was answering a question or clarifying a point...

Obviously, the sensory perception isn't the origin, but is the trigger for thoughts, as a response to different stimuli acquired through the senses of perception. Consequently, the region of the brain, Hypothalamus, would have to be responsible for processing the perceived information.

As far as the origine of Abstruct Thinking goes, it would have to be the interplay of processes in the brain:
thoughts, perceptions, emotions, memory, imagination, and will. I mean, there's no a single region that is responsible for Abstruct thinking (except of, possibly, the one I mentioned earlier -- the one tied up with processing the sensory info and production of various hormons...)
Hec, even the neuro-scientists are still puzzled about the origins of consciousness in the brain... But -- since memories aren't stored in a particular location, but are scattered throughout the brain (i.e. cerebral cortex) in a Web of associations -- it would seem reasonable to assume that the source of Creative Abstruct thinking must also be represented with an interplay of the forementioned faculties! ***********************************************************
(..enabling a person of creating original associations...)
Thus, *** the higher the degree of a person's perceptions, imagination, memory, etc., the more likely that person is to come up with Creative Abstruct thoughts!!!