all humans have a common ancestor whether you think it was adam ar susie, the first known humanoid.

It is irrelevant to me if all the Jews in Israel are descendants from the Ashkenazi, or are the direct lineal descendants of converted Khazars. (Which I believe most of them are.) But that is irrelevant.

(Its just a religion anyway.)

What I want to point out is that King David was pure fiction. Abraham is pure fiction.

What I want to point out is that the "Jewish People" are not descended from King David or Abraham and they do not have any right to the alleged "promise land." It makes no difference to me where their lineage leads.

That fiction is why Zionist Christians still support the state of Israel and all of the violence going on in the Middle east. They are pushing for a self fulfilling prophecy so they can hold on to their belief that after certain things happen and the Jews return home that their savior (Jesus) will return.

It is so much bull I can't believe entire religions life's blood hangs on the existence of a fictional character called King David, who was made up.

That is what Shlomo Sand's book is about. Jewish historians KNOW he is right, but they don't talk about the lie.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/ancient/archeology-hebrew-bible.html

Interesting link and information.

The DNA evidence indicates that Shlomo Sand's theory is wrong.
That's why I call it "The Invention of Shlomo Sand". Theories
which describe biological descendants which do not agree with
DNA evidence need to be discarded.

There is no documentation or evidence that King David and
Abraham are completely fictional. On the contrary, there is some
imperfect but not entirely fictional description of their
lives and descendants in the Old Testament and archaeological
evidence that the cities and cultures described and attributed
to Abraham and King David did in fact exist and there are many
people who appear to be their biological and religious
descendants. There are extensive descriptions of their lives
in the Bible - which although cannot be taken literally
nevertheless has many historical accounts which are at least
partially accurate.

So there is substantial evidence that many biblical figures
indeed did exist but there is no evidence to suggest that David
and Abraham are purely fictional. This is your personal fantasy.

A backwards way to go about it.





What DNA evidence? I'm sure there are many different kinds of "Jews" with very different DNA. Anyway, the DNA evidence proves nothing and it is irrelevant unless they can prove that King David really existed.

So first you have to have irrefutable proof that Abraham and King David were NOT fictional characters, then and only then you would have to have the correct Jews DNA tested, but only IFF you have proven that King David was a real person.

Anything less is just B.S.

So as I said, it matters NOT who their DNA says they were even if the tests were done with the right Jews. (Which is highly doubtful) Its just another effort to perpetrate the scam of Israel.

It is their claim to be the Biblical Jews related to King David, and Abraham's children that is the biggest scam of the ages.

It is the myth that they are the chosen people of God that is the scam. It is the myth that they have a God given right to the "promise land" that is the scam being sold to Zionists Christians.

The DNA analysis cited in these articles:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2010/06/03/the-dna-of-abraham-s-children.html

The DNA analysis undermines the claim that most of today’s Jews, particularly the Ashkenazi, are the direct lineal descendants of converted Khazars—which has angered many in the Jewish community as an implicit attack on the Jews’ claim to the land of Israel, since it implies that today’s Jews have no blood ties to the original Jews of the Middle East. Instead, find the scientists, at most there was “limited admixture with local populations, including Khazars and Slavs ... during the 1,000-year (second millennium) history of the European Jews.”

Of the non-Jewish Europeans, northern Italians were most genetically similar to the Jews, followed by the Sardinians and French. The Druze, Bedouins, and Palestinians were closest to the Iranian, Iraqi, and Syrian Jews. That is evidence of “a shared genetic history of related Middle Eastern and non-Semitic Mediterranean ancestors who chose different religious and tribal affiliations.” Adds Ostrer, “the study supports the idea of a Jewish people linked by a shared genetic history. Yet the admixture with European people explains why so many European and Syrian Jews have blue eyes and blond hair.”

Likewise an article in the journal Science found Sand to be
basically full of it.

=-=-=-=

http://www.sciencemag.org/content/328/5984/1342

Science 11 June 2010:
Vol. 328 no. 5984 p. 1342
DOI: 10.1126/science.328.5984.1342

News of the Week

Human Genetics
Who Are the Jews? Genetic Studies Spark Identity Debate

Michael Balter

Two new studies conclude that most members of the far-flung Jewish Diaspora can trace their roots to ancestors who lived in the Middle East more than 2000 years ago. The new research, based on recent advances in genome technology, apparently refutes controversial claims that most of today's Jews descend from more recent converts. And it finds that Jews in Ethiopia and India who also claim origins in ancient Israel are more distantly related to other Jewish groups. Yet some researchers argue that although science can track Jewish ancestry, it has little to say about who is a Jew today.

I can repost my stuff too.

DNA is irrelevant to my point, besides I don't believe your claims. There are many different kinds of Jews that DNA could have been taken from.

****

So first you have to have irrefutable proof that Abraham and King David were NOT fictional characters, then and only then you would have to have the correct Jews DNA tested, but only IFF you have proven that King David was a real person.

Anything less is just B.S.

So as I said, it matters NOT who their DNA says they were even if the tests were done with the right Jews. (Which is highly doubtful) Its just another effort to perpetrate the scam of Israel.

It is their claim to be the Biblical Jews related to King David, and Abraham's children that is the biggest scam of the ages.

It is the myth that they are the chosen people of God that is the scam. It is the myth that they have a God given right to the "promise land" that is the scam being sold to Zionists Christians.

Go to a court of law and try to refute good DNA evidence and see
where that gets you.

The DNA tests were done correctly and do suggest common jewish
middle eastern ancestry.



You once again misrepresent the idea of chosen-ness to try to make
it sound exclusive or proprietary. It is not. The jews were chosen
not to be above anybody but to be examples according to religious
doctrines.

Jews do of course have a long standing historical ties to the land
of Israel. It was their original home and one of the great
civilizations of antiquity and although most jews were exiled at
one time or another from Israel, there have been jews living there
continuously for at least thousands of years and many exiles
ultimately returned when they had no where else to go. Finally the
jews founded their homeland again in Israel beginning about
150 years ago resulting in the modern state of Israel. Amazing
actually.

No scam here. Just history. And DNA evidence.

Contrasted with a bunch of bigoted nonsense trying to discredit
the jews obvious connection to their original state and homeland
and failing miserably because it is arguably the most well
documented history in the history of History!



See for example the documented history of the Babylonian exile.
Dating to about 600 years BC.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/vjw/Greece.html#Jewish%20Greece

Jewish Greece

Contact between Greeks and Jews outside of Greece began after the Babylonian exile of 586-539 B.C.E. When the Persian king Cyrus allowed Jews to return to their homeland after the Babylonian exile, they met Greeks for the first time. The prophet Ezekiel wrote of the Greek traders of "Javan," Ionia, who traded in slaves and worked with bronze. The Greek historian Herodotus knew of the Jews, whom he called Palestinian Syrians, and included them in his list of those serving in the Persian king Xerxes’ navy when Xerxes invaded Greece in 480 B.C.E.

There may have been isolated Jews living in Greek cities as far back as the Babylonian exile, but the first organized Jewish communities in Greece were established in approximately 400 B.C.E. The communities flourished during the reign of Alexander the Great and the subsequent Hellenistic period in around 300 B.C.E. Jewish immigrants flooded Hellenist cities along the Aegean Coast and the Greek mainland. The Greeks were polytheistic and maintained a glamorous lifestyle. While most Jews retained their monotheism, many wealthy Jews were attracted to Greek culture and created a class of assimilated, pro-Greek Jews.
Throne of Moses in the Synagogue of Delos from 1st Century

Greek was the language of commerce, administration and secular law in the Hellenistic kingdoms and, slowly, Jewish communities began to forget Hebrew. In around 260 B.C.E., certain books of the Bible began appearing in Alexandria in Greek translation. In approximately 250 B.C.E., the Macedonian-Egyptian king Ptolemy ordered the translation of the entire bible into Greek by 70 scholars. This translation became known as the Septuagint.

The most famous confrontation between Greeks and Jews was the Maccabean Revolt of 167-164 B.C.E. The Seleucid king Antiochus IV imposed Greek religious customs on the Jews and tried to convert the Jewish temple in Jerusalem into a temple to the Greek god, Zeus. The Jewish revolt, led by the Hasmonean Judas Maccabee, defeated the Seleucid armies and recaptured the temple. After the revolt, many Hellenized Jews left Judea and moved to Hellenistic commercial centers such as Alexandria and Antioch.
Synagogue of Sardes,
c. 350 C.E.

According to Maccabees I 15:23 and also the Jewish historian Philo (c. 30 B.C.E.–c. 45 C.E.), in the years following the revolt the Jews built up communities in Sparta, Delos, Sicyon, Samos, Rhodes, Kos, Gortynia, Crete, Cnidus, Aegina, Thessaly, Boeotia, Macedonia, Aetonia, Attica, Argos, Corinth and Cyprus. When the Christian Saint Paul visited Greece during the first century C.E., he found well-established Jewish communities in Thessaloniki, Veroia, Athens, Corinth and other towns.
Romaniot

The Jews in these communities were called "Romaniot," a hellenized Latin term implying that they lived in the empire of the "second Rome," meaning Greece. They developed customs now known as "minhag Romania." They translated traditional Jewish prayers into Greek and recited them in Greek, although the prayers were written with Hebrew letters. The Jews’ political existence was tenuous and "they absorbed from the Greeks before the birth of Christ more than the Greeks absorbed from them" (Levi, p. 203).

Ridiculousness.

What I object to is them using the fiction of the Bible and King David to pretend they are God's chosen people and that they have a right to the alleged "promise land."

I also don't believe your DNA story.




I still don't have any verification of who performed the tests and why they did them in the first place.

If they did them just to refute the facts of history, then they had motive to fake them.

p.s. your link did not work.

Back to "And the lord said..."

Who is that comedian that talks about that guy walking down the street arguing with himself about the universe, and how do you know he is not just a REALLY reluctant prophet and God is speaking to him and he doesn't want to do what "the lord says"???

I always thought that was interesting point. Like Jesus disappeared for years and how do we know, he was not walking around arguing with God that he did not want to be the messiah. I know it's a strange concept to some but I mean if God really told you all that, would you come to grips with it immediately? I don't think I would.

I would not believe it was God.

I'm quite sure it would be some impostor.

So I would refuse, plain and simple.

He would say something like:

"I am Ra!"

Or "I am the Lord thy God!"

And I would say,

"Where is your I.D.?"

And he would hand me a business card. It would say simply "God" on it.

And I would say, "Are you George Burns? Get outta here!!"

This is why your point of view is called bigotry. God's "chosen
people" does not imply they are better than anyone else and it does
not mean that they have a right to the "promised land". Their
claim on this land is historical and their original description of
their population of this land is described in part by the bible but
no one in their right mind disputes the existence of ancient Israel.
It is one of the well known dynasties in history and was documented
by other conquerors and remains of the ancient places described in
the texts are found even today archaeologically.



Read about the "chosen people" issue here:

http://judaism.about.com/od/judaismbasics/a/jewsaschosenpeople.htm

Your misunderstanding of the idea of chosen-ness is the first example
in this article on how people commonly misrepresent this idea.

=-=-=-=

Misinterpretation of Chosenness

The concept of chosenness has often been misinterpreted by non-Jews as a statement of superiority or even racism. But the belief that Jews are the Chosen People actually has nothing to do with race or ethnicity. In fact, chosenness has so little to do with race that Jews believe the Messiah will be descended from Ruth, a Moabite woman who converted to Judaism and whose story is recorded in the biblical “Book of Ruth.”

Jews do not believe that being a member of the Chosen People gives them any special talents or makes them better than anyone else. On the topic of chosenness, the Book of Amos even goes so far as to say: "You alone have I singled out of all the families of the earth. That is why I call you to account for all your iniquities" (Amos 3:2). In this way Jews are called to be a “light to the nations” (Isaiah 42:6) by doing good in the world through gemilut hasidim (acts of loving kindness) and tikkun olam (repairing the world). Nevertheless, many modern Jews feel uncomfortable with the term “Chosen People.” Perhaps for similar reasons, Maimonides (a medieval Jewish philosopher) did not list it in his foundational 13 Principles of the Jewish Faith.

=-=-=-=




Well here is the link again. I just checked it and it works. Maybe
you have some problem with your browser settings or pressed the wrong
button or something. It was published in Science magazine which is
a very reputable Scientific Journal.

http://www.sciencemag.org/content/328/5984/1342

Science 11 June 2010:
Vol. 328 no. 5984 p. 1342
DOI: 10.1126/science.328.5984.1342

It is also described here:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2010/06/03/the-dna-of-abraham-s-children.html

I just tested this link and it works too...

But just in case you cannot manage to get these links to work again,
here is the excerpt from the above link which gives the name of the
journal where one of the studies was published.

=-=-=-=

Although the origin of the Jews has been traced, archeologically, to the Middle East in the second millennium B.C.E., what happened next has been more opaque. To sort it out, researchers collected DNA from Iranian, Iraqi, Syrian, and Ashkenazi Jews around New York City; Turkish Sephardic Jews in Seattle; Greek Sephardic Jews in Thessaloniki and Athens; and Italian Jews in Rome as part of the Jewish HapMap Project. (All four grandparents of each participant had to have come from the same community.) As the scientists will report in the next issue of the American Journal of Human Genetics, the analysis shows that “each of the Jewish populations formed its own distinctive cluster, indicating the shared ancestry and relative genetic isolation of the members of each of those groups.”

=-=-=-=

And here is a link to the American Journal of Human Genetics article.

http://www.cell.com/AJHG/abstract/S0002-9297%2810%2900246-6

And in case you cannot get that link to work - Here is the abstract:

=-=-=-=

Abstract

For more than a century, Jews and non-Jews alike have tried to define the relatedness of contemporary Jewish people. Previous genetic studies of blood group and serum markers suggested that Jewish groups had Middle Eastern origin with greater genetic similarity between paired Jewish populations. However, these and successor studies of monoallelic Y chromosomal and mitochondrial genetic markers did not resolve the issues of within and between-group Jewish genetic identity. Here, genome-wide analysis of seven Jewish groups (Iranian, Iraqi, Syrian, Italian, Turkish, Greek, and Ashkenazi) and comparison with non-Jewish groups demonstrated distinctive Jewish population clusters, each with shared Middle Eastern ancestry, proximity to contemporary Middle Eastern populations, and variable degrees of European and North African admixture. Two major groups were identified by principal component, phylogenetic, and identity by descent (IBD) analysis: Middle Eastern Jews and European/Syrian Jews. The IBD segment sharing and the proximity of European Jews to each other and to southern European populations suggested similar origins for European Jewry and refuted large-scale genetic contributions of Central and Eastern European and Slavic populations to the formation of Ashkenazi Jewry. Rapid decay of IBD in Ashkenazi Jewish genomes was consistent with a severe bottleneck followed by large expansion, such as occurred with the so-called demographic miracle of population expansion from 50,000 people at the beginning of the 15th century to 5,000,000 people at the beginning of the 19th century. Thus, this study demonstrates that European/Syrian and Middle Eastern Jews represent a series of geographical isolates or clusters woven together by shared IBD genetic threads.

=-=-=-=



That ought to help clear it up for you on all fronts.

Great! Then we agree on this.



"They" have no claim on that land.

I don't really care about or dispute the existence of "ancient Israel". It has nothing to do with Zionism today. The people of Palestine have DNA roots in that land also, and many of them are Jews. None of this Biblical crap has anything to do with establishing a state and nation of Israel. If they want to live in that area they should just live with the people who are there instead of trying to expand their boarders and run people off.

You don't see the American Indians, particularly the Comanches, trying to move into my town and take my land - because the white man conquered them and put them on a reservation do you?

You don't see any proclamation that they have a right to a nation of their own or to this land. Same goes for the Mexicans and California. I guess we should give it back to them?

S1owhand,

Your so-called genetic link said:

"Yet some researchers argue that although science can track Jewish ancestry, it has little to say about who is a Jew today."

However, the Zionists Jews of Israel sure have A LOT TO SAY about who they think is a Jew today. Many people who are Jews by religion and have been all their life are rejected as Jews by Zionists Jews of Israel and many of them are atheists.

Israel is the most bigoted country in the world where Jewish ancestry and even the Jewish religion is concerned. They are not interested in the Jewish religion, but are more interested in a particular family bloodline. They identify this family bloodline through a gene that can only be found in women. (The Jewish Mother.)

s1owhand, also the title of the article of the link you provided started with "Abraham's children..."

Prove Abraham existed. Any article that starts with or talks about Abraham or King David has no credibility with me.



The other link you provided about the Chosen People is just a crock of B.S.



What a crock. I don't believe that for a second. In fact, I think it is an untruth.

Question: "Should Christians support the nation of Israel?"



Answer: Christians should definitely support the nation of Israel. We must remember that Israel, the nation, is very special to God. We read in Deuteronomy 7:6-8 these words: "For you are a people holy to the LORD your God. The LORD your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession. The LORD did not set his affection on you and choose you because you were more numerous than other peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples. But it was because the LORD loved you and kept the oath he swore to your forefathers that he brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you from the land of slavery, from the power of Pharaoh king of Egypt."



God's eternal purpose is to bless the world through Israel. Already He has done so in measure, for "salvation is from the Jews" (John 4:22), but the fullness of future blessing is indicated in the wondrous promise of Isaiah 27:6: "In days to come Jacob will take root, Israel will bud and blossom and fill all the world with fruit."



The declaration that "salvation is from the Jews” suggests our immeasurable debt to Israel. All that we have worth having has come to us through the Jews. Our Bible is a Jewish Book, and our Savior is a Jewish Savior. Let us never forget to pray for God's chosen people. It is true that Israel, today, is in the place of rejection. The nation is a secular, unbelieving (as to the claims of Scripture and their Messiah, Jesus Christ) nation; but "…at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace" (Romans 11:5). Some Jews are being saved and are becoming members of the body of Christ through faith in their Messiah.



Jews are, biblically speaking, the "chosen people of God" and dearly loved by Him. Another reason for Christians to support the nation of Israel is because of the Abrahamic Covenant. We read of God’s promise in Genesis 12:2-3, "I will make you into a great nation and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you" (see also Genesis 27:29; Numbers 24:9).



One of the United States’ most worthwhile accomplishments has been its consistent regard for the plight of the Jewish nation. No nation in the history of the world has a better record of treating individual Jews with respect than does America. The same can be said for our befriending Israel as a nation. America has committed many sins for which we may well deserve judgment, but as a nation, we have been a consistent friend of the Jews and the nation of Israel, as well as a benefactor. In 1948, President Harry Truman helped persuade the United Nations to recognize Israel as a nation. Since then, the United States has contributed billions of dollars in aid to Israel.



From the biblical declarations of GOD'S LOVE AND CARE FOR HIS CHOSEN PEOPLE, the nation of Israel, and from the history of nations being destroyed because of their evil dealings with God's chosen people, the JEWS, Christian believers should give support to the chosen people of God. This is not to say that we support necessarily the methods they use in their relationships with the Arab nations. The Bible warned that conflict would always characterize the relations between the descendents of Isaac and Ishmael. Sadly, this conflict will continue until Jesus comes back to judge the nations and sets up His 1,000-year reign of peace on earth. We must look at the "big picture” with a biblical worldview. While we do not have to support everything Israel does as a nation, we most definitely should support Israel’s right to exist. God will fulfill His promises and covenants with Israel. God still has a plan for Israel. Woe to anyone who seeks to defeat that plan; “whoever curses you I will curse” (Genesis 12:3).


gotquestions.org

Question: "What is Zionism / Christian Zionism?"



Answer: Zionism, simply a political movement at its inception, has today become more of an ideology than anything else. Zionism is an international movement for the return of the Jewish people to Zion, the land of Israel, while exercising the right to retain authority of government over the state of Israel, which was promised to them in the Hebrew Scriptures. The roots for Zionism lie in Genesis chapters 12 and 15, in which God makes a covenant with Abraham promising him that his descendants would inherit the land between Egypt and the Euphrates River.



Due to the fact that Zionism was begun as a politically motivated movement, there exists among secular Gentiles and non-religious Jews a line of thought stating that the religious background of the Jewish people had nothing to do with Zionism. It is argued that Zionism was instead a reaction of the Jewish people to worldwide persecution during World Wars I and II. No nation would take them in, so they were forced to create their own nation, the land of their ancestry being the most opportune place.



Regardless, the Zionist movement, begun in the late 1890s, found fulfillment in 1948 when Israel was officially recognized as a state and granted sovereignty as a nation within Palestine by the United Nations. This is when, technically, the political Zionist movement ended and the ideology of Zionism began, and as such, has become a much-debated topic. Some would say that Zionism has become a motivation for racism, or a reaction against anti-Semitism. Others believe that Zionism as it currently exists is merely Jewish patriotism.



Associated with Jewish Zionism is Christian Zionism. Christian Zionism is simply Gentile support of Jewish Zionism as based on the promises to Israel found in the Bible, passages such as Jeremiah 32 and Ezekiel 34. Christian Zionists are primarily evangelical and give support in any way possible to the Jewish state of Israel. The return of the Jews to the Promised Land is the fulfillment of prophecy and is seen, especially by dispensationalists, as a sign that the world has entered the end times.


gotquetions.org

Nah. Those who observe Judaism are identified as Jews in Israel.
There are some who debate what customs and rituals to observe like
any religion and some ultra-religious want others to be more like
them etc. But they are not really observing the spirit of the
religion anyway. Jews are not atheists. They believe in the
Pantheist/Abrahamic/Taoist monotheistic God.






That is only ignorant. The above is from a Jewish link and is
actually what Jews themselves consider chosen-ness means. But if
you will not learn anything then you are doomed to remain
ignorant about it.

The Israeli Zionists also consider a person Jewish if they observe
Judaism. They accept converts. And, if they have a Jewish Mom then
they get streamlined immigration according to ancient matrilineal
customs. Other Jews consider paternal descendancy equivalent to
maternal but neither parent needs to be Jewish in the case of
conversion according to Zionists and all other Jews.



So stick your fingers in your ears and repeat your false beliefs
all you want but it won't ever make them correct.

Israel is one of the least bigoted countries in the world. They
like the U.S. believe in religious freedom and have a free and
open press. Just try for example to observe Judaism, Christianity
or Taoism in Saudia Arabia, Egypt, Syria and Iran.



or N. Korea...

The above propaganda is EXACTLY WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT!

And the Zionists Jews of Israel who don't give a squat about Christians promote this crap. And it is all crap.

That is why I say that people should realize that King David, and Abraham were purely fictional characters.

There is no concrete evidence that any Isralites were freed from slavery from Egypt or wandered in the desert for 40 years.

Its all fiction. And the atheists Zionists Jews in Israel milk it like the cow that it is.

You are very wrong where it involves privileges and citizenship.