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Topic: Is Freedom and Liberty a lost principle today?
Sojourning_Soul's photo
Wed 06/10/15 08:49 AM
Edited by Sojourning_Soul on Wed 06/10/15 08:51 AM
Freedom and liberty, two quintessential ideals that serve as the backbone to the American essence, were established and promulgated as our fundamental bedrock by the original founders of our constitutional republic: Benjamin Franklin, George Washington, and Thomas Jefferson, amongst others. These men, who believed in liberty and man's right to tranquility, dedicated their lives and ability to the hope of establishing a system of governance that encompassed and embodied the distinguishing characteristics for everlasting dignity and solidarity. Today, however, after years of electoral and political corruption, many Americans have lost their faith in the voting mechanisms that once ensured the republic would remain safe from tyranny.

Amongst a sea of establishment candidates who rise to power year after year representing the status-quo, Americans may wonder where the continental leader, constitutional drafter, or ethical pillar reside; where are America's heroes of yesterday? This tantalizing thought that compels our individualized paradoxes inadvertently prevents the recognition of the Jefferson within. Americans today, through their cultural fear remain transfixed by their jobs, families, and associations to tap into the underlying hero that resides within.

The coming 2016 elections present an opportunity to enact true change towards liberty and political equality. Up for reelection in 2016 is the presidency, 34 seats in the Senate, and 435 seats in the House of Representatives. Rather than running along partisan divides, we need more than anything, independent leaders capable of enacting policy based upon the true sentiment of We, the People. The two major parties have steered our nation to a breaking point; to continue onward with a political duopoly only secures our fate as a libertyless nation.


no photo
Wed 06/10/15 09:02 AM
Franklin, Washington and Jefferson would be vilified by the media today.
Perhaps, we are now victims of too much liberty and freedom.sad2

LTme's photo
Wed 06/10/15 09:05 AM
SS!
Interesting topic.

Thank you for distinguishing freedom and liberty.

It is Liberty that I value.

Liberty means the right and power to think, act, and express ones self in the manner of ones own choosing; provided that Liberty does not infringe or usurp the Liberty of another or others.

In Liberty, your right to flail your fist ends short of where my nose begins.

If you don't mind SS, I'd like to post some of the stump speech from a Libertarian that ran against Bush and Clinton in 1992.
The following excerpted from U.S. Presidential candidate Libertarian Andre Marrou's 1992 stump speech.

"The annual subsidy for each American dairy cow is between $600-$700 dollars a year.
This is greater than the per capita income of half of the worlds population. And what do
we get for that? We get a price for milk and other dairy products that's double the
world's level.
Who does this impinge on? Primarily poor people with children. Rich people could care
less what the price of milk is. Poor people without children, they don't use much milk.
It's the poor people with children who are primarily hurt by this."

There's more, if anyone's interested.

Thanks again SS.

LTme's photo
Wed 06/10/15 09:11 AM
Please pardon me al.
As the time stamps show, I was composing while you were posting. I didn't mean to cyber-ignore you.
"Perhaps, we are now victims of too much liberty and freedom.sad2" al

I don't interpret satire very well. Please don't be offended.

But the fact is; in the 18th Century when our nation was Founded, there was no concept of:
- speed limits
- lawn mowing ordinances
- EPA
- DMV
- FBI
- IRS
- etc.

If the Founders heard about Drug War, the martial oppression of the People of the United States of America; our government waging bloody War against US, I doubt they'd believe it.
A crime for possessing what the Founders used to cultivate?
"Perhaps, we are now victims of too much liberty and freedom.sad2" al

Ha Ha
but No!

Sojourning_Soul's photo
Wed 06/10/15 09:19 AM
Edited by Sojourning_Soul on Wed 06/10/15 09:24 AM

Franklin, Washington and Jefferson would be vilified by the media today.
Perhaps, we are now victims of too much liberty and freedom.sad2


Hardly my friend. Nobody even knows what it is anymore in reality thanks to our educational system.

Since the Demoncrapic leadership of the FDR days, The New Deal (which the SCOTUS ruled unconstitutional, so like Obozo FDR did an end-run around the Senate to implement), social security, and all the other entitlements it enacted for those troubled times which they keep active even today (like the Patriot Act and NDAA after 2001 still active today after 14 years), Americans have lost their pride and desire to fend for their own betterment and needs.

With govt stealing from the rich, and the poor, under the guise of "wage distribution" thru the IRS and FED bank, the corruption that brought on the crash of 2008, bailing out the banks and corps who caused it instead of those it harmed, with people complaining but doing nothing about it, I'd say our fate is pretty well sealed.

But the dam is about to break on even a larger scale here very soon!

It's said "Be careful what you wish for"...... payment is about to come due for everyone's lack of interest and initiative in securing their rights!

no photo
Wed 06/10/15 09:32 AM
That was my meaning, too much liberty and freedom taken for granted. Many have become complacent and disinterested.

no photo
Wed 06/10/15 09:47 AM
we're screwed, the voting process is rigged and no candidate who isnt going to serve the establishment will get "elected". our freedoms are going to continue to be attacked under the guise of national security. people are too brainwashed by their televisions to give a crap about their own future. our government commits unconstitutional acts on a daily basis with no penalty, while the rest of us are subject to so many god damn laws its not even humanly possible to follow them all. people who believe firmly in the constitution are considered domestic terrorists in todays world. like i said as a country we are screwed until people decide to get off their a$$es and speak up for themselves. there is no such thing as freedom in america anymore and hasn't been for a long time. we're a bunch of debt slaves.






no photo
Wed 06/10/15 09:50 AM

That was my meaning, too much liberty and freedom taken for granted. Many have become complacent and disinterested.

agreed that we have become too complacent and disinterested in real subjects. and only care about the kardashians and sports and other nonsense that doesnt mean anything.

no photo
Wed 06/10/15 11:34 AM
Is Freedom and Liberty a lost principle today?

I think it is.

Originally there were 60-70 representatives in congress representing about 3 million people.

Today there are 535 representing 315 million people.

I think we need about 6000 more members of congress, and 100 more presidents to share the job to keep things normalized.
Taking the current salaries and benefits, putting them in a pot so to speak, and dividing them among that many representatives.

That should slow things up nicely.

Bring in far more people voters can actually identify with and see that who they vote for matters would restore some small sense of freedom and liberty I think.
Bring back the concept that these are representatives, not leaders.

I know it's old but how the hell did Hillary Clinton become a senator for New York? Born in Illinois, living mostly in Arkansas, before Washington D.C., move to New York and then goes (back) to Washington representing the entire state she lived in for less than a year?
That should never happen.

The coming 2016 elections present an opportunity to enact true change

No they don't.
True change hurts and is scary.
This is just a horse race hoping your candidate wins, with nothing really changing except you get to feel better that you picked the winner.


InvictusV's photo
Wed 06/10/15 04:55 PM
True change starts with ending crony capitalism.

When politicans can dole out taxpayer money to people that donated to their campaigns or their families and it is just accepted practice things are never going to change.

no photo
Wed 06/10/15 05:04 PM
Edited by sweetestgirl11 on Wed 06/10/15 05:06 PM

True change starts with ending crony capitalism.

When politicans can dole out taxpayer money to people that donated to their campaigns or their families and it is just accepted practice things are never going to change.


I like what you are saying. I think we need to be able to earmark on or tax forms how we want our taxes spent and the gov't required to report back to us in some fashion where our money went....in just the same way that gov't contractors have to report back to them now.

They could be fairly general categories with a certain percentage set aside to actually run the government.

That is closer to the type of freedom from oppression that the country was founded on: Freedom from taxation w/out representation was a primary impetus for the Declaration

InvictusV's photo
Wed 06/10/15 05:19 PM


True change starts with ending crony capitalism.

When politicans can dole out taxpayer money to people that donated to their campaigns or their families and it is just accepted practice things are never going to change.


I like what you are saying. I think we need to be able to earmark on or tax forms how we want our taxes spent and the gov't required to report back to us in some fashion where our money went....in just the same way that gov't contractors have to report back to them now.

They could be fairly general categories with a certain percentage set aside to actually run the government.

That is closer to the type of freedom from oppression that the country was founded on: Freedom from taxation w/out representation was a primary impetus for the Declaration


Those are good ideas.. I would like to see that people who donate or bundle over a certain amount are not eligible for any government money for a certain period of time. WE need to end these campaigns for president that require billions of dollars in contributions. It is just assinine.


no photo
Wed 06/10/15 05:31 PM



True change starts with ending crony capitalism.

When politicans can dole out taxpayer money to people that donated to their campaigns or their families and it is just accepted practice things are never going to change.


I like what you are saying. I think we need to be able to earmark on or tax forms how we want our taxes spent and the gov't required to report back to us in some fashion where our money went....in just the same way that gov't contractors have to report back to them now.

They could be fairly general categories with a certain percentage set aside to actually run the government.

That is closer to the type of freedom from oppression that the country was founded on: Freedom from taxation w/out representation was a primary impetus for the Declaration


Those are good ideas.. I would like to see that people who donate or bundle over a certain amount are not eligible for any government money for a certain period of time. WE need to end these campaigns for president that require billions of dollars in contributions. It is just assinine.




:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

metalwing's photo
Thu 06/11/15 06:36 AM
If you want to see real change ...

Get a balanced budget amendment to the constitution.

Stop the flow of influence money to politicians (like that could really happen!)

Eliminate unions for government employees (take a close look at the IRS and VA)

Revise the immigration law to eliminate "anchor babies"

Amend the laws to prohibit 'any' person illegally entering this country from ever receiving citizenship or receiving government assistance.

Grant 'terrorist' status to any person illegally in this country and convicted of a felony with a minimum prison stay and life upon reentry after deportation.

no photo
Thu 06/11/15 06:45 AM

If you want to see real change ...

Get a balanced budget amendment to the constitution.

Stop the flow of influence money to politicians (like that could really happen!)

Eliminate unions for government employees (take a close look at the IRS and VA)

Revise the immigration law to eliminate "anchor babies"

Amend the laws to prohibit 'any' person illegally entering this country from ever receiving citizenship or receiving government assistance.

Grant 'terrorist' status to any person illegally in this country and convicted of a felony with a minimum prison stay and life upon reentry after deportation.



Oooooolala...I love every single one of these!!love love

Don't blame government, blame wealth!....

IgorFrankensteen's photo
Thu 06/11/15 06:06 PM
Problem with some of those.

Balanced Budget Amendment: puts the nation at the mercy of ANY surprise attack, or natural disaster. President would not be able to order any response without Congress convening to rewrite the entire finances of the country.

I love the idea of stopping the flow of money to politicians, but since they've now declared that bribes are a form of Speech, protected by the First Amendment, that's not going to happen.

Good luck getting an Immigration law of ANY kind out of the current Congress.

no photo
Thu 06/11/15 08:15 PM
How bout someone start the "Term Limit Party"? Yea! That's the ticket.
:banana:

IgorFrankensteen's photo
Sat 06/13/15 08:03 AM

How bout someone start the "Term Limit Party"? Yea! That's the ticket.
:banana:


The GOP already did that, in case you are too young to remember. Back in the 1980's they promoted that idea specifically because they were convinced that the only way they could get people to vote Republican, was if they were forced to by the government. Or at least, prevented from voting for who they really wanted. Same belief that drives that party today, and why they are so intent on adding restrictive voter ID requirements.

One important lesson to get from it: no party which votes term limits IN, or says they will, will vote to keep them in place. The Republicans demonstrated that in short order, once they gained control of Congress. Instead of proceeding to do as they'd promised, and set real term limits, they ignored the subject altogether. Because they knew that they REALLY only wanted to vote through term limits for Democrats, and they knew that wouldn't fly.

What we really need, are reforms which make sure that the reason why people get voted BACK into office, is that their constituents genuinely want them there, for good reason. Term limits wont do that, term limits just takes away the voters ability to choose the few good people they've found to lead, and forces them to put who-knows-what in their place.

I'd like to try putting an end to ALL campaign contributions of more than $100 per person, especially including an overturning of the idiotic ideas that corporations are "people," and that "money is protected speech."

LTme's photo
Sat 06/13/15 08:42 AM

On the subject of term limits for elected public officials:

The topic here is:
Topic: Is Freedom and Liberty a lost principle today?

So to promote Liberty, we're going to reduce further the choice of the electorate?
- No. You can't vote for the candidate you want. They're term-limited out. -

How absurd.
The flogging will continue until the morale improves.
sign in George Will’s office

no photo
Sat 06/13/15 08:52 AM



True change starts with ending crony capitalism.

When politicans can dole out taxpayer money to people that donated to their campaigns or their families and it is just accepted practice things are never going to change.


I like what you are saying. I think we need to be able to earmark on or tax forms how we want our taxes spent and the gov't required to report back to us in some fashion where our money went....in just the same way that gov't contractors have to report back to them now.

They could be fairly general categories with a certain percentage set aside to actually run the government.

That is closer to the type of freedom from oppression that the country was founded on: Freedom from taxation w/out representation was a primary impetus for the Declaration


Those are good ideas.. I would like to see that people who donate or bundle over a certain amount are not eligible for any government money for a certain period of time. WE need to end these campaigns for president that require billions of dollars in contributions. It is just assinine.




Yes it is. I don't think Lincoln could win in today's system. Bring back good old fashioned stumping and put limits on individual and corporate donations. Maybe political ads should be free to avoid money winning the popularity via recognition contest. That idea of large contributors not eligible for govt funding may be more effective than limits...it is a good idea also

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