Why are you lying Cowboy? And bearing false witness against another?

I have never said anything remotely like what you've just posted here, nor do I even believe that way.

If you're going to make up outright lies about me then I'm done conversing with you. Does your religion teach you to lie like this?

I never said that I see my spiritual views as the "only true spiritual view", nor do I even remotely feel that way about my spiritual views.

You've fabricated that lie entirely on your own.

I do not think the way you claim here at all. Not even remotely.

And I see no reason to converse with you based on totally fabricated lies like this.

That's correct to a point. However, you need to keep in mind that the people who wrote the New Testament could be included in that. If they wrote things that would cause people to think that they need to believe certain things in order to be accepted by a God then they were spreading hate in their writings.



Yes, you are correct. In this abstract sense I do indeed follow a religion. It's a highly personalized religion, but yes, it would indeed be a religion by the definition you just gave.

However, you are wrong to say that I talk negatively about religion in general. What I complain about is a religion that proclaims that all other religions are false and that anyone who does not accept it is 'rejecting' God.

It sure sounds to me like this is a property of your religion because you seem to be holding out that thesis quite strongly.

Have I ever suggested to you that if you don't believe in my religion that you are choosing to reject God?

I know for certain that I have never suggested any such thing.

If you believe that Christianity is the way to god FOR YOU, then more power to you! I have absolutely no problem with that at all. And I must have told you that a billion times.

I also respect and believe that your spiritual belief in your religion is genuine. If you truly believe that you are worshiping the spiritual essence or creator of all things, then YOU ARE. It truly doesn't matter whether the specific religion you are using for that worship is verbatim truth or not. Your INTENT is all that matters.

Surely any ALL-WISE supreme being could see that your INTENT is GOOD. Therefore why should any such supreme being be upset with you if the religion you are using to worship it is false?

That would be a totally trivial and insignificant issues.

So not only do I NOT claim that you are rejecting God, but on the contrary, I totally recognize the validity of your relationship with God. I don't question it at all. If you are pure at heart then I'm sure that your relationship with God is just as valid as mine. The religious traditions that we use to commune with God are basically irrelevant.

So I don't question your spirituality in the least. And I never have.




You the only one who is constantly repeating to me that if I don't accept Jesus as The Christ I'm rejecting God.

It's not the other way around at all. And never has been.

You're the one who refuses to acknowledge my spiritual connection with God. It's not the other way around, and never has been.

You keep telling me that if I don't accept Christ as my savior I'm rejecting God.

It's all ONE WAY Cowboy. Totally ONE WAY. Your WAY or NO WAY!



Yes I do, that's correct.



No, not at all.

First off, just because I don't believe that Jesus was "The Christ" or that he was "The only begotten Son" of a God who sent him to be the sacrificial lamb to pay for the sins of mankind, does not mean that I do not recognize HIS spiritual essence.

On the contrary I most certainly do. Jesus, as best I can make out form the second-hand rumors we have about him, was quite a guy. I highly respect the man. He's one of my own personal heroes in history.

Just because I believe he was a mortal man doesn't belittle him.

I have great respect for a lot of mortal men. And I also believe that Jesus was every bit as spiritual as any other spiritual figure in history. So I don't belittle him on that account either.

In fact, I don't "belittle" Jesus at all. Never have, and never will.

I have always supported the moral teachings that have been associated with Jesus. What I object to us using Jesus as an excuse to support the writings of Paul and the content of the Old Testament.

So I don't belittle Jesus in any way.

~~~~~

Insulting a Religoin?

As far as "downing" or "insulting" your religion, let's think about that a minute.

What are you doing?

You are constantly HOLDING UP the idea that anyone who rejects the biblical picture of God is rejecting God. You constantly insinuate that this is their FREE WILL CHOICE to knowingly reject this God. In fact you often phrase it as "Choosing to disobey OUR Father".

Also you aren't just referring merely to moral teachings of Jesus, but to the whole shebang. The whole idea that Jesus was born of a virgin, he was the only begotten son of the God of the Old Testament, he died on the cross as the sacrificial lamb of God to make salvation possible for us, etc, etc, etc.

The WHOLE SHEBANG.

So what do people like myself do? We react to the ACCUSATIONS that you are insinuating.

And how do we react?

We react by pointing out why there are valid and sound reasons for not believing in your religion. That religion that you continually insist that if we reject it, we are "rejecting God".

Why do we do this?

We do it to try to show you why we don't BELIEVE a word of it.

That's a quite natural reaction isn't it?

You're trying to tell me that if I fail to believe in your religion I'm rejecting God, it's only fair that I should respond to that by pointing out to you precisely why I don't believe in your religion.

What else would I do? I'm just explaining why your accusation have no grounds.

~~~~

So what do you do then?

You ask, "Why are you insulting my religion?"

Well duh?

I'm NOT!

I'm just telling you why I don't believe it. You take that to be "insulting" because you want to believe it's true and you don't like to hear people giving reasons why it makes no sense.

~~~~~

That's precisely what evangelistic religions cause.

If you're going to continually harp at me that I need to believe in this religion, otherwise I'm "Rejecting God".

Then what else can I do but tell you precisely why I don't believe in the religion?

Then you are "insulted" because I'm giving reasons why I don't believe in your religion.

~~~~~~



Oh no I'm not saying that at all. Let's take a closer look at my quoted statement:



I was speaking to the issues of very specific religions that have very specific behaviors. (i.e. religions that spread hatred toward non-believers of their religion)

It is my humble opinion that to continually harp at people that they are "rejecting God" just because they don't believe in your religion is a hateful thing to do. Especially if the person you are accusing already has a religion of their own as (as I do) and you have even recognized this.

You say: "So by the quoted statement of you, you are saying we can do without your spiritual beliefs, or any other for that matter."

My spiritual beliefs don't have me accusing you of rejecting God if you don't believe in my religion. So my religion would be exempt from this quote.

Have I ever accused you of not believing in God if you don't believe in, or accept my religion? I know for certain that I have never done any such thing. My religion doesn't require that you believe in "it" in order to believe in God. My religion is just a means of acknowledging, communing, and honoring God. My religion doesn't DEFINE God.

You can worship God using any religion. Even Christianity if you so choose.

Have I ever told you NOT to worship God through Christianity?

I'm quite sure I haven't because I don't even feel that way at all. If you are happy worshiping God through Christianity I think that's GREAT. And I'm sure that God would be pleased with that as well.

~~~~~

Worship Jesus as "The Christ" to your hearts content! Believe that he died to pay for YOUR sins. Believe that he has saved you from God's wrath, or Satan, or whatever it is that you believe you have been saved from.

More power to you!

Hallelujah! Praise God! I'm glad that you have found a spiritual means to feel close with God and commune with God. And feel accepted by God and all that.

I couldn't be happier for you!

But please don't come out of that and start "accusing" other people of "rejecting God" if they haven't chosen to believe in the religion of YOUR CHOICE.

~~~~~

That's when the line has been cross Cowboy.

That's when you are insulting my religion without even speaking of it or knowing anything about it. You are automatically insulting it by refusing to even recognize is as being a valid relationship with God. You are totally renouncing my religion and my spiritual beliefs by the mere act of ignoring them and preaching to me that if I haven't accepted Jesus as "The Christ" and the only begotten son of GOD, then I'm rejecting God.

You don't even need to know anything about my religion at all to insult it. You've already insulted it to the hilt by refusing to acknowledge that it could even remotely be worthy of consideration.

So who's insulting who's religion REALLY?

~~~~

Quit preaching to me that I am a "sinner" who needs to accept Jesus as my "savior" and I'll quit telling you why I don't believe in that religion.

Then you will no longer need to feel "insulted".

It's that simple.

I am in harmony with the spiritual essence of reality.

Anyone who claims that I'm rejecting their God is only telling me that their God cannot be the spiritual essence of reality.

Its that simple.

And the REAL spiritual essence of reality fully understand this TRUTH.

We can do without religions that try to spread hatred toward non-believers of their religion by basically raping them of their FREE WILL choice to accept God in their own way.

Like I say, that's just unholy emotional terrorism. It's totally uncalled for. It's nothing more than religious bigotry. It's about as unholy as anything can get.

I also personally believe that individuals who call themselves "Christians" and go around continually harassing people on this issue because they know that it amounts to emotional terrorism are truly sad people.

If someone tells you that they are not rejecting God. Then that's THEIR FREE WILL CHOICE. To claim that they are rejecting God is to disrespect their FREE WILL CHOICE and rape them of respect.

I do not reject any REAL God. Period amen.

I only reject rumors about immoral blood thirsty jealous Godheads who threaten to physically hurt and torture people who don't believe in them.

That very scenario right there does not describe a "God" as far as I'm concerned. That describes a threatening demon.

So I reject those religions that worship demonic Gods.

There is absolutely no reason for any all-wise all-righteous supreme being to be threatening anyone with physical harm if they don't LOVE him.

That is an utterly contradictory idea right there.

LOVE me or I'll HURT you and then KILL you!

What the HELL kind of divinity would that be?

That's not divine by any stretch of the imagination.

Adolf Hitler could act like that.

Offer me a DIVINE GOD, or take your demonic cult and beat it.

That's my feelings.

Don't talk about a God who will hurt me and kill me if I don't LOVE him. That's just oxymoronic.

Yes exactly.

As a metaphor for love and compassion the Jesus story works just fine.

But as soon as it's turned into the idol worship of Jesus as LORD it becomes a totally contradicting religion. It deteriorates very rapidly into nothing more than religious bigotry using Jesus as a battering ram at that point.

Your person A and person B analogy makes no sense.

We're talking about totally FAITH BASED religion here.

To not believe in a FAITH BASED religion is not walking away from anyone. It's merely calling if for what it is - superstitious myths.

Are you "walking away from" and rejecting the Wiccan Goddess, and the Greek Zeus?

I don't think so. You simply don't believe in those FAITH BASED beliefs.

Well it's the same way with Christianity.

The only difference is that the Christians are so unbelievably arrogant that they try to claim that people who don't buy into their religion is "Rejecting God".

Like I say, that just a cheap religious brainwashing trick. It's basically an attempt to emotionally terrorize anyone who refuses to buy into the religion.

That's all it amounts to.

No truly righteous God could possibly be associated with such emotional terrorism. Such a God would himself need to be totally unrighteous to be involved in that sort of thing.

It can't be the design of a supreme God. Therefore it necessarily must be the psychological brainwashing scheme of mortal men.

MorningSong, that is precisely the 'scam' that became Christianity.

Can you not see, that this is just a man-made religion that is basically saying the following:

NO ONE can EARN their way to God ,by trying to

do good works( religious works done in order to please

God )......it is ONLY thru JOINING and SUPPORTING our religious CULT that you can get to God.

There is no other way!



It's the epitome of a religious cult that has taken that brainwashing scheme to the extreme.

Either JOIN OUR CULT and SUPPORT IT, or God will HATE YOU!

That is the brainwashing psychology behind this cult MorningSong.

There is not God who hates people or who REJECTS THEM simply because they don't fall for the Hebrew CULT.

It's a religious SCAM.

It started out with merely a "jealous God" who would not tolerate any other Gods before him.

In other words, it started out with a jealous CULT that would not tolerate any other CULTS, or religious views. It is the epitome of religious intolerance.

However the original religion wasn't working very well, and people (LIKE JESUS) were rebelling against it and teaching far better moral and spiritual principles.

They crucified Jesus for having spoken out against the cult and for having called the cult leader Hypocrites.

After that, there were a whole lot of rumors about Jesus and many people recognize that Jesus had indeed spoken out against a wrongful religious cult.

So the devious cult leaders WROTE the New Testament account of Jesus making him out to be the "Son" of their original jealous God and set it up to appear now that the ONLY WAY to get back to God is through Jesus which THEY now have the COPYRIGHT on via their doctrines. Doctrines that they forced onto people via sword point.

Either confess that Jesus is LORD and JOIN OUR CULT again, or you will be proclaimed to be a "heathen" or worse yet you might lose your property or your life, and you'll certainly be rejected by the church and as much of society as the church can influence.

Once you realize the scam aspect of this it becomes crystal clear that this is what it is.

~~~~~

The bottom line is really quite simple MorningSong. No truly righteous God would REJECT PEOPLE, or be mean and cruel to them, for simply for not believing in the superstitious rumors of other mortal men.

~~~~~

Think about what you're saying MorningSong.

You're really saying this:

No one gets to God unless they believe the Biblical rumors that were written by the Hebrews.

And God necessarily REJECTS anyone who does not believe in these rumors.

Does that truly make any sense at all?

This claim that it is the person who is rejecting God by not believing in Hebrew rumors is nonsense.

That would be like telling you that you are REJECTING ZEUS because you don't believe in Greek Mythology. That's baloney. You aren't 'rejecting' Zeus, you simply don't believe that he represents a true picture of God.

Well that precisely the very same thing that people who don't believe in the Hebrew rumors are doing.

It's the greatest LIE ever told that people who don't believe in a particular religion are "choosing to reject" some God.

That is indeed a LIE. It has no substance and holds no TRUTH!

Any cult that claims that if you don't join it and support it God will hate you is just using psychological coercion and emotional harassment in an attempt to brainwash people into fearing that if they reject the CULT that's somehow the same as rejecting God.

Christianity is the epitome of cults.

No God is going to hate anyone MorningSong for not supporting a particular religious cult. And it's truly sad that you feel that you need to support that kind of emotional and psychological harassment.

To not join and support the Christian myth DOES NOT constitute rejection of God.

That's the biggest LIE on Earth. And you're preaching it!

You may have a different approach to it from Cowboy, and you may have a better dream of how such a cult could work. But in the end, it's still just a man-made cult.

Don't hold this against Jesus. He was a VICTIM of the cult. He didn't create it. He actually stood up against it and was crucified for having stood up against it.

So keep your Jesus, but please, dump the cult.

There are many ways to God. And it's highly unlikely that Jesus ever said otherwise.

People point to the New Testament and say, "But Jesus said he is the only way,.... etc."

Baloney!

Jesus was DEAD when the New Testament was being written. Jesus didn't write the New Testament.

Jesus was being USED by the cult leaders to strengthen their cult. The very CULT that Jesus stood against.

Don't believe that the New Testament speaks for Jesus in verbatim detail. That's a huge part of the scam. That's what they want you to believe.

No God will hate anyone, or reject anyone, for not believing in the Christian scam MorningSong.

I'm not the one who's desperate to get into Heaven. On the contrary I would much prefer other spiritual scenarios as Jeanniebean has mentioned. They sound a lot more interesting to me.

I have no desire to rule over another being, but at the very same time I have no desire to be the eternal servant to another being either.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. If death is an option to that I would gladly take it. Like Patrick Henry said, "Give me liberty or give me death". That's one of my most favorite quotes and it is quite meaningful to me. It is precisely how I feel.

I have no desire to be the eternal servant of a male-chauvinistic God who is cruel and mean to people who disobey him.

I'll gladly choose spiritual death. You can serve doubly hard to make up for my absence. By the sound of your enthusiasm to serve this God I'm sure you'll be thrilled to get to serve him double-duty.

~~~~~~

By the way, if you are so thrilled to serve God then clearly that would be all about YOU. By the sounds of things you can hardly wait to get started. So it must be something that PLEASES YOU immensely. Thus it ultimately is about YOU and your DESIRE to serve God. How could it not be about YOU?

The only way it could not be about YOU is if you weren't interested in doing it. But according to you, it's your WISH to serve God.

So obviously it is all about YOU and your WISHES.

Truly, like an all-powerful supernatural entity needs a "servant".



Why would an all-powerful supernatural being have a need for servants?

God needs HELP with something?

That superstition doesn't even make any sense.

I have no problem with "God" MorningSong. I'm already in harmony with God, and I have been for the overwhelming bulk of my life ever since very early childhood.

The only thing I have a problem with is religious dogma and false rumors of demigods who supposedly walked the Earth as sons of blood thirsty jealous gods.

I can do without that kind of negativity.

And expect to get into Heaven



The way to where? Heaven?




How to achieve Heaven



To get to Heaven


~~~~~~~

You sure seem to be obsessed with getting into heaven.

~~~~~~~

I think MorningSong's spiritual views have a dramatically different flavor and motivation. She seems to be far more into understanding love. Getting into Heaven would be a mere consequence of that, certainly not the central focal point of her spiritual quest.

I think Jeanniebean already touched on this. It's all about love and compassion Cowboy. It's not about lust to "get into Heaven"

That's the wrong focal point. That's just seeking a reward.

A reward for what? For merely being obedient to God?

Nah. What a cheap heaven that would be.

Nope is FAR DEEPER than that Cowboy.

It's all about LOVE, it's not about "Where do I get the instructions for how to get into Heaven".

YHWH are Hebrew letters that represent the unspeakable name of God.

They lately became Yahweh and are often used as a pronounceable name for God.

In many of the books I read on magick it is said that the ancient Hebrew letters YHWH were actually symbols used by Hebrew magicians to represent the four elements, Earth, Air, Fire and Water. All of which came from God and was God. Much like God is the Word and the Word is God.

That actually started out being God is symbol and symbol is God.

Or God is manifestation and manifestation is God.


YHWH became the unspeakable "symbol" for God. It represented both the unmanifest and the manifest simultaneously. The elements and their source.

It is also said by many that the Hebrews actually got these ideas from the Egyptians originally. And I've heard some speculate that the Egyptians got them from the far East (i.e. India).

Who knows for sure?

Obviously no one alive today.

But yes, that's the origin of the unspeakable name Yahweh the God of the Bible or the God of Abraham.

Dear MorningSong,

Your spiritual interpretations of the biblical story are very beautiful. If I were going to follow a "Christianity" I would follow an interpretation that very much agrees with yours.

I fully understand your view of the religion. I also understand how it is dramatically different from Cowboy's view of the religion. Cowboy has a much more hardcore fundamentalist's view, whilst you have a far higher spiritual view.

I personally feel that the that the biblical scriptures do indeed convey a picture of a God who reaches out to people when the time is right. I have even pointed this out to Cowboy in the past but he remains obviousness to it to this day. Jesus clearly told his disciples the parable of the lost sheep and asked, "Who of you would not go out in the field to look for your lost sheep?" And then he says, "Would your Father in heaven not to the same?"

In other words, if God wants to "save" someone, he's do it. And it's not up to a person to save themselves, it's up to God.

This is quite contrary to Cowboy's view that he needs to save himself by satisfying all the apparent requirements and "earning" his salvation.

I'm in total agreement with you that the scriptures paint a far different picture. Or at least parts of them do.

Unfortunately there are parts that do seem to support a more hardcore fundamentalist interpretation. It' my belief that the story is so abstract, and conflicting that it can be made into various different stories. In fact, I think part of the reason for that has to do with the different authors of the scriptures and how they viewed things as well.

Having said all of this, I still don't believe in a God who requires blood sacrifices, and I don't believe that Jesus was the "sacrificial lamb" of God. So I'm not about to buy into the religion in the overall details.

But if I had to support a version of Christianity, I do like your version the best. Actually your version is not knew. Our family had views quite similar to yours. My mother's interpretations of the Bible were very much akin to yours.

That is a far more beautiful picture of Christianity and Christ than the kind of picture that the fundamentalists paint. You paint a picture of a truly loving Christ. Not a Christ who is giving people ultimatums like the fundamentalists like to make it out to be.

So just know that I do understand your view of Christianity and how it differs dramatically from Cowboy's. I think if all Christians believed like you Christianity in general would be a far more attractive and beautiful religion.

It would still contain that thorn in the side of blood sacrifices though. That is highly problematic for me, no matter how pretty it's painted in other areas. And there would still be a lot of negative issues associate with the Old Testament.

But you do paint a truly beautiful picture of Jesus.

God bless you for that.

Well, yes in that sense it is a "gift" just like our physical bodies and abilities are a "gift". Everyone uses magick all the time whether they realize it or not.

I actually meant that it's not a "Gift" given to Wiccans because they joined a religion or believe in a particular Goddess.

Unfortunately though, without spiritual training of some sort (even if it comes in the form of secular psychology) people quite often use their magic to their own detriment. It's just as easy to use magic to do something unproductive as it is to use it for productive things.

Just like you can use a hammer to drive a nail, or break a window. Same tool, different results.

People who are untrained in the art of magical transformation still transform things. They just have no clue how they are doing it, or even that it's them who is doing it.



I hope you didn't place too much on that bet.

No. Rituals and incantations are not what magick is. However, if you think that rituals and incantations cannot be a powerful part of a magical orchestration then you could benefit from learning the fallacy of that thinking.

All that "rituals" and "incantations" amount to are purposeful actions of body, mind, and spirit. And if you think for one second that your body, mind, and spirit aren't involved in the orchestration of magickal transformations then I'd say you are indeed lacking an understanding of magick quite significantly.



I would have no clue how are ability to cause transformations might compare. I don't view magick as a competition, nor would I care to become involved in a display of magickal competition. I just use magick for my own spiritual and physical growth and well-being.

I hope your magick is indeed quite effective. And that you use it for positive works as well.

Some people are totally infatuated with the idea of winning a trip to heaven that this is all that matters to them. It's the PRIZE they seeking, not Jesus. They couldn't care less about Jesus!

Take away the prize of eternal life, and they'd drop Jesus like a hot potato.

Why do you think Cowboy has absolutely NO INTEREST in Buddha at all?

Buddha has nothing to offer!

Cowboy is only interested the GIFT.

No GIFT, no interest.

It's that simple.

He wants the directions to heaven, and he's not interested in anything else.

In fact, isn't that interesting? People who follow the teachings of Buddha are obviously following those teachings solely because they are interested in spirituality NOT because they were promised some Gift.

Same thing holds true for Wicca, except Wicca does offer magick which is pretty cool. But the magick is certainly no "gift" magick is something that absolutely must be earned through much dedication and spiritual and physical work. So it's hardly a gift, it's just a natural reward for hard work, not unlike the normal physical rewards we get from having accomplished something.

Good for you MorningSong!

You saved at least ONE contradiction.

Nice SAVE!

Exactly. If anything I would imagine that Jesus would probably want to thank me for at least trying to save him from the the horrible Christian rumors.

I do my best to try. But the Christians are hell bent on demanding that he's a horrible monster. It's a losing battle for sure.

No, Cowboy your analogies always fail miserably.

First off, why are you comparing God with a mere mortal human judge?

A mere mortal human judge has no power, omniscience or anything else. He is also highly restrained by the laws of the society in what he can dish out as a sentence, etc.

God would be totally ABOVE all of that.

If the penalty for disobedience is DEATH, then why be CRUEL and MEAN to the person that God is going to KILL?

That was the original point I was making.

Why not just kill them peaceful and be done with it. What would be the POINT in inflicting them with physical torture?

God is a sentient being. He has FULL CONTROL over what he decides to do. There would be absolutely no reason whatsoever for this supposedly "ALL LOVING and ALL MERCIFUL" God to get into the nasty demonic business of physically being mean to people just because they don't believe in him, or even because they aren't interested in obeying him.

Why be MEAN to them? Whey HURT them?

That's demonic behavior and is totally uncalled for and serves NO GOOD purpose.

You're trying to take the responsibility for this hideous behavior off the shoulders of the God and place it onto the person who is being tortured.

That bull crap!

The God is ultimately the one who is deciding to perform this kind of hideous behavior.

NO ONE ELSE CAN TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THAT!

Certainly not the people who are being tortured.

That would be entirely the decision of the God to torture them and no one else.

The God, as portrayed in the Bible, would be demonic and have demonic tendencies and behaviors.

It's as simple as that.

There is no excuse for a God who intentionally hurts people, especially if he's planning on killing them anyway.



I totally reject this religion as being demonic and ungodly.

Why should I trust a demonic God?

So the Christians put Jesus before Yahweh, and you put Paul before Jesus.

Very interesting.

By the way Jesus supposedly said that he is the only way to the father, so if Paul claimed that there is another way then wouldn't that make Paul a liar, or at best, a false prophet?

How can Paul spit in the face of the words of Jesus?


John.14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

If Paul taught something different from this in Romans, then the bible clearly contains contradictions. But then there's nothing new there.

No Cowboy for the last time your analogy can't possibly work at all.

Fire is not a sentient being.

God is.

If you can't comprehend the difference in that, then I don't know what to tell you.

You must think that God is unconscious or something. That's all I can figure.

Did someone try to tell you otherwise?

It seems to me that if you are allowed to think for yourself it wouldn't bother you if someone told you otherwise anyway.