Exactly,

Is the Bible supposed to be the "Verbatim Word of God", or is it supposed to be the "Common sense impressions of mortal men"?

This is an extremely deep and profound question truly.

Because if it's just the "common sense impressions of mortal men", then the value of the biblical "teaches" is totally dependent upon the "Common Sense" of the reader.

That's hardly a doctrine that could be said to be 'guiding' anyone who instilling them with good moral values, if they need to conclude things based on their own "common sense".

If they are going to just live their lives on what makes "common sense" to them, then they wouldn't need a book.

~~~~

This type of observation comes up clearly when associated with people such as Hitler (or other people who have taken harsh and violent interpretations of the Bible).

As an example, the Old Testament teaches us that God has directed us to seek out and kill heathens (i.e. people who don't believe in the Biblical God). Thus anyone who rejects the Bible is a "Heathen".

Hitler, as a Christian, could claim that the Jews reject Jesus, which is the act of a heathen. Thus they should be exterminated according to the teachings of the Biblical God.

But way, Jesus taught love, peace, and not to judge! Another Christian might claim.

But then Hitler says, "But Jesus also said that he did not come to change the law and that not one jot nor one tittle shall pass from law".

Well, duh? The original LAW was the God commanded his followers to KILL HEATHENS, thus common sense in Hitler's view is that Jews must be killed since they are clearly heathens for not believing in Jesus the only begotten son of God.

~~~~~

So who's 'common sense' do we go by?

Yes, it's true that high moral people will argue, "Well, gee whiz any sane moral person can see that what Hitler was doing was wrong!"

Well duh?

If they feel that killing heathens is obviously 'wrong' then clearly they must also think that the God of the Old Testament was 'wrong'.

Common sense tells us that.

See where it becomes a total can of worms?

Trying to bring the concept of "common sense" into the biblical stories quickly runs into huge paradoxes.

If killing heathen was 'wrong' for Hitler, then it must have also been wrong for God to direct people to do that in the Old Testament as well.

We can't very well have the cake and eat it too.

~~~~

So arguments for "common sense" interpretations quickly sink into the quicksands of paradox.

Not only that, but in the original Hebrew written language single words had multiple meanings anyway. So given any ancient Hebrew text there are actually quite many different interpretations that would be "valid interpretations" in terms of the vague and abstract meanings that these Hebrew words could represent.

Therefore, the result of any interpretations, translations, or transcriptions, would be highly dependent upon the personal interpretations of the the interpreter.

To believe that modern English numbered verses should be taken literally as verbatim statements, is totally unrealistic IMHO.

Therefore to even post or print a numbered verse from these English texts and proclaim that these word should be taken as the verbatim directives and desires of some God, is, well,.... unrealistic IMHO.

Placing faith in the idea that those verses are the verbatim instructions of some God, is itself a faith-based belief.

It is true that having done without is a great teacher.

I have been very fortunate to have never been without a home throughout my entire life. Still I far from take my home for granted. And even though I have had the land and a basic building, which is truly a quite modest home hand-built by my father and expanded by myself, I still appreciate it very much and never take it for granted.

I have lived for many year without "running water". I had indoor plumbing and a septic tank, thank God for that. Well maybe I should be thanking my dad for that actually. But for many years I carried my water by hand from the spring. And that included bath water and laundry water.

To day I still have to fetch water from the spring periodically. But fortunately today I have gasoline powered pumps and tractors to haul the water up in large tanks. So for me, this is like high technology.

Every time I take a bath I wallow in the bliss of appreciation.

Absolutely I do. I don't think I've taken a bath since I got a tractor and water pump when I didn't "praise God" for providing me with those things. Even though a secular atheist would claim that I'm the one who earned the cash to go out and buy them.

Still, I feel gratitude to the "powers that be" to even make that possible.

In fact I feel this way about everything. The tractor itself is an old farm tractor that I bought quite used. It's a miracle every time the thing starts up. And I realize that and appreciate it. I even named the tractor Daisy, and I think of her as having a persona.

I have another old tractor named Scout, whom I also appreciate very much. He has a hydraulic lift on the back and has been a very powerful and useful helpmate when it come to picking up heavy things and moving them around. Especially helpful when I make logs into lumber, or when I'm getting firewood.

The woodstove is yet another thing that I greatly appreciate it. A 'gift from God', even though I actually bought the metal and built it myself. I used to heat with indoor woodstoves and I cut all my own firewood. I appreciated that too, but it was messy and not healthy.

Now my woodstove is outside and I heat hot water and pump it though car radiators to heat the place up. It's very nice. Far cleaner and more even heat too. My appreciation of stove and the wooded land I live on, are constantly on my mind. I don't take these things for granted in the least.

It amazes me people who have all these things piped into their homes via utility companies, and they scream and complain when their lights go out or their gas is momentarily interrupted.

They seem to totally take these things for granted and become angry with the utility companies when the service is momentarily interrupted. There doesn't appear to be much appreciation going on there.

If appreciation for the basic things in life carries any weight toward 'salvation' then I certainly have a lot of appreciation in my 'salvation savings account'.

Not that my appreciation of things has anything to do with a need for salvation, but I'm just saying, if they are linked, my appreciation of life is already in the bank.

I don't take my cat for granted either. He's a really cool cat and I show him appreciation every day by giving him a nice little cuddling once in a while.

I know people who own dogs and have them tied out in the back yard and very seldom pay them any attention at all. It's heartbreaking.

I am in 100% absolute agreement with you on this one MorningSong.

I too believe that even these stories themselves have Jesus instructing his disciples to simply spread the word but not to argue about it, and to leave and kick the dust from their shoes if people aren't interested in hearing what they have to say.

So as far as I can see to relentlessly proselytize the religion to people who have clearly already "heard the word" is to actually violate the very instructions of Jesus according to these very stories.

So people who take it upon themselves to dedicate their lives to trying to convince non-believers via relentless arguing with them are actually violating the instructions given by Jesus according to these gospels anyway.

So they aren't even following the message that the believe supposedly came from God themselves.

Relentless proselytizing is not even compatible with the stories of Jesus truly.

Well, your last choice certainly appears to be the most productive and rewarding. You'd certainly distract him from calling your Goddess worship fictitious.

By the end of the baseball game you might have him participating in Goddess worship.

You're not very good at spelling it either evidently.



I think you should remain with what calls to and what you are most comfortable with too.

Contrary to popular belief on these forums, I am not against Christianity as a personal faith.

What I am against is the constant and relentless proselytizing of the religion to people who do not feel called to it, or who have actually left it after deciding that it isn't for them.

So it's actually the relentless proselytizers that I react too.

The innocent Christians who are simply trying to have peaceful walk with God in the background get mowed down as collateral damage on the sidelines of the proselytizing wars.


I would never bother a Christian who wasn't constantly trying to convince me to believe in their religion.

I could worship God through the Moon Goddess whilst the person next to me is praying to God in Jesus name, and I would have absolutely no problem with that whatsoever.

Where it becomes problematic is when they start proclaiming that I'm rejecting the real "God the Father" by worshiping my fictitious Moon Goddess.

Now the proselytizing war has begun.

And, I ask you, who was it who had cast the first stone?

Me? Or the Christian?

I would love to discuss other forms of spirituality. I've tried to do that on these forums but it always get yanked back to "Christian Proselytizing" here. Leaving me basically not much choice on these forums but to continually explain why I don't believe in Christianity.



I would love to get past that and discuss other possible spiritual beliefs.

I just recently joined a "Wiccan" forum. Trust me, even those forums are not exactly in perfect harmony when it comes to their beliefs, etc. In fact, just in my introduction thread I've already ended up in a "defensive" discussion concerning whether or not my spiritual beliefs qualify as being "Wiccan".

Not that I actually need to be associated with that label, but it just goes to show that no matter where you go in terms of religion there are going to be people proclaiming what constitutes a "True whatever" and what doesn't quite fit that bill.

In very specific terms I would not claim to be a "Wiccan" but I do feel that in general my current spiritual practices could indeed be sufficiently described by that term.

Although, having said that, I would certainly qualify as a "Buddhist or Taoist", especially in terms of spiritual philosophy, if not in terms of the actual practice of those spiritual traditions in detail.

Buddhism itself is every bit as diversified as the Abrahamic religions. There are forms of Buddhism as far removed from one another as Christianity and Islam are removed from Judaism.

So to even say that I would qualify as a "Buddhist" needs to be clarified. Which form of Buddhism?

Actually the forms of Buddhism that I could potentially associate myself with would probably be ancient forms that are not widely practiced today. The closest Buddhisms I can think of would be Tantra Buddhism and potentially Tibetan Buddhism (the Buddhism associated with the Dalai Lama) Although I certainly don't practice it anywhere near to the extent that the Dalai Lama practices it.

In fact I don't practice rituals of Buddhism much at all anymore, save for those that carry over into Wicca. Such as meditation, visualization, and casting circles. The casting of circles was only associated with very few forms of ancient Buddhism and their circle casting was quite different in technical details, but similar in a spiritual sense, as I see it.

I love Wicca now. Or at least a lot of the rituals and folklore that is associated with it. Wicca does not represent a specific "God" or "Goddess" to me, even though some Wiccans do associate it with very specific deities.

In fact, that very issue is one of the things that is often highly controversial even with in Wiccan circles (if you'll excuse the pun)

I view the "God" and "Goddess" as psychic visions of a single spiritual essence of reality. In some sense I think of that essence as our higher self.

What Cowboy refers to as "Our Father" I see as our very own "Higher Self".

So in a sense, we could be speaking of the same spiritual concept. Although I seriously doubt that Cowboy would accept this view.

Cowboy would probably hold out that the Father is a totally separate entity from us, and that we are not "one with the Father", especially not until we have accepted Jesus specifically as our savior, etc.

By from my point of view, if there is a "God" then my spiritual practices through Wicca, or Buddhism, or anything are all recognizing the same spiritual consciousness.

This is why I have no problem moving from one religion to another. I've never changed "Gods" in my life. All I've done is change the way I view God.

This is also why I can indeed recognize Christians and Christianity as being a valid religion for those who chose it.

Does it matter whether the stories in the Old Testament actually came from God? Does it matter whether Jesus was actually the only begotten son of God? Etc.

No, it doesn't. As long as a person believes that they are honoring the spiritual creator of all life though that religion then they are.

So in that way, Christianity is just a valid spirituality as anything else.

There's just no need to hold it out to be the only way for everyone else.

I would disagree.

If someone is constantly suggesting that to not believe Christianity is to turn against God, not only are they suggesting that whatever the other person believes is stupid and illogical, but they are also suggesting that the other person ought to know better.

After all, how could you be choosing to "rejecting God" via your own free will choice and not even realize it?

That makes absolutely no sense at all.

So to even suggest to someone that they are refusing to "obey God's directives" or "rejecting our heavenly Father" is to suggest that, not only are they stupid, but they are willfully choosing to do a really stupid thing. (i.e. Turn against their very creator)

Christianity is basically a religion that, by its very nature, is an insult to everyone who refuses to believe in it.

It basically accuses everyone who refuses to believe in it as having chosen to reject God.

It's the nature of the religion.

~~~~

When I try to point out that this very scheme itself appears to be a man-made religious scam, all I get back in return is, "Why are you bashing our religion?"

This would be like the members of a cult telling me that if I don't join their cult I am rejecting God. And when I tell them that that makes no sense at all they say to me, "Why are you bashing our cult?"

~~~~

The truth is MsHarmony that the claims held out be the Christian doctrine make no sense to me. They do appear to be totally illogical and make no sense.

If that's the reason I'm rejecting the religion, I can't help it.

If people like Cowboy would quit trying to convince me to believe in the religion I would no longer have a need to explain why I don't believe in the religion.

My reason for not believing in the religion is that it makes no sense, IMHO.

I can't help that. That's just the way things are.

If I thought it made any sense, I would give it some serious consideration. The fact that it makes no sense, is precisely why I reject it.

Absolutely.

Cowboy's basic position is one of "preaching" as much as he doesn't like to be associated with that term. He's already confessed to having an evangelical agenda.

He often claim so be just "posting to the forum" and not conversing with anyone in particular. So could it be a "Two-way" communication.

All Cowboy is trying to do is use the forums as a "broadcasting pulpit" to spread the word of his specific religion.

He's not the slightest bit interested in what other people might believe, or not believe. All he does it continually harp at the very same thing over and over and over again like a broken record,...

"Either acknowledge that Jesus is God and accept him as your savior, or die spiritual"

Period amen.

He's not here to "discuss" anything.

Contrary to his constant denial his only agenda is to preach that Jesus is Lord and nothing else will do.

That's "preaching" if there ever was such a thing.

And then he becomes upset when people point this out and acts like they are somehow being 'hateful' toward him for 'accusing' him of being a "preacher".

~~~~

There are far better ways to evangelize a spiritual belief, IMHO.

I have no desire to convince Cowboy that Christianity is wrong.

I've told him countless times that I accept that his belief in Christianity and Jesus as "The Christ" is certainly respectable and I even personally believe that any creator that might exist would surely appreciate his sincerity and belief in those ideals.

It's a real shame that he feels that it's an important part of his belief to try to convince (or enlighten) people to believe like he does.

I will concede that this is a very unfortunate part of Christianity for everyone involved, both Christians and Non-Christians alike.

Truly,

The only end result that would satisfy Cowboy is if we finally accept his belief that Jesus is Christ is Lord and Savior and that the entire Bible is the "Word of God".

That's the only end result that he is interested in.

Anything less that this and he's simply not done yet.

If you are trying to enlighten someone to what you personally believe to be the knowledge of a God, then you are indeed trying to convince people to believe like you.

You've stated repeatedly that you are not trying to convince anyone of anything. Now you're suggesting just the opposite.




I'm not feeling guilty about anything. Trying to make people feel guilty about things is solely the tactic of the religion you believe in.

I offer people an alternative view of these ancient stories. And yes my view includes the conclusion that the old testament has no more merit than Greek Mythology, Jesus was most likely a mortal man, and the New Testament is most likely superstitious rumors.

These are my conclusions based on years of study and contemplation concerning these ancient stories and claims.

You offer arguments against my conclusions.

That's fine. Nothing wrong with that at all.

However when I offer reasons why your arguments aren't consistent and offer no valid explanations for the outrageous claims being made, you become angry and accuse me of "insulting" your beliefs, and/or "bashing" your religion, and/or simply being a "hateful" person for not accepting your views as if they are the unquestionable "Word of God".

Well, I'm never going to do that. My stance is that the stories themselves are not the "Word" of any God. And even more importantly, you personal interpretations and explanations for these stories is certainly not the unquestionable "Word of God" as much as you would like to believe it may be.

IMHO, you are just becoming increasingly frustrated because no explanation under the sun is ever going to make sense concerning these ancient inconsistent and contradicting stories.

Yet apparently your sole goal is indeed to convince other people that they are consistent and sensible.

When you see that you aren't making any progress in convincing other people of your beliefs, you resort to trashing them. Accuse them of insulting your beliefs. Accuse them of bashing your religion. If all else fails, just proclaim that they are hateful people in general.

All that does is clearly demonstrate your own frustration of not being able to convince other people of your beliefs.

And all the while you continually claim that you are not here to convince anyone of anything.

Whilst simultaneously holding out your agenda to:



You are never going to convince people who are 3 times your age to toss away their lifetime of considering these things to accept your personal interpretations of a religion that is itself highly fragmented in its own core beliefs, from Judaism, to Islam, to Catholicism, to the myriad of different views of Protestantism.

You've taken it upon yourself to become the "savior" of the world through relentlessly evangelizing on a dating forum.

And that is what you are doing is it not?



That's evangelism.

~~~~~

With all due respect and with perfect sincerity, love, and trust, please consider the following carefully:


If there truly is a righteous God, do you honestly believe that he would need you to convince other people of his existence?

That would only imply that his system of righteousness and salvation for other people would depend upon YOU, and other evangelists.

That makes no sense. It has to be about the individual who is being judged.

I'll be more than happy to answer any "charges" that I have supposedly "rejected God" on any judgment day that might come Cowboy.

I know that such charges would indeed be false, and misguided.

For you to continually harp at decent honest people that they need to accept Jesus as their Savior lest they will be condemned by God to spiritual death is,... well,... silly.

Truly it is.

Such a God would need to be as unjust and unrighteous as can possibly be.

Your religion is ultimately based on the fear that God is unjust and will condemn decent righteous people to spiritual death if they fail to believe in a particular religion.

Look at how many humans your God would need to condemn!

Just based on that alone.

All the Muslims, all the Jews, all the Pagans, all the Buddhists, Hindus, Taoists, etc, etc, etc.

It's simply unfathomable how many people your God would need to condemn just based on that one little tiny thing.

If you are out to save the world via evangelism, you've got a whole lot of work cut out for you.

And you may as well move on from me and Jeanniebean, because you're totally wasting your evangelistic efforts on us.

I forget to ask,...

Repent for what?

What is it that this man thinks people have done that they need to repent?

Truly nasty people probably have no interest in repenting for their evil deeds. And surely truly nice people would have no need to repent.

So it's kind of silly to even bother to 'preach' to people to repent isn't it?

The good people will receive their just righteousness, and the bad people will also receive the justice they deserve.

Moreover, why try to talk anyone into repenting? If they haven't already decided to repent on their own, what would be the point?

To even preach to people that they have a need to repent, like as if it's important to get this message to them, is IMHO, to do nothing more than exhibit a total distrust in a judgmental God to be fair and just.

No undeserving person could possibly be sent to hell by a truly righteous God.

So there can be no fear that innocent people would be condemned. Such a fear would be nothing more than a distrust in God to do the right thing.

So there can be no need to preach to people.

~~~~

Also consider the following:

According to the Bible Jesus himself was a doomsday preacher. Jesus preached "Heaven is at hand" (i.e. the end of the world) He also preached that all of his predictions would come to pass before the generation he was speaking to had passed.

Clearly that never happened. So the doomsday threats of this religion don't appear to hold much merit.


Matt.24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Mark.13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

Luke.21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.


According to Matthew, Mark, and Luke, Jesus preached that all of his prophecies would come to pass before the generation he was speaking to had passed.

Clearly that never happened.

Why anyone even bothers with these ancient rumors today is beyond me. They clearly never came to pass as prophesied. Those generations have pass away a very long time ago.

Truly.

It seems to me that going around telling everyone that they are sinners who are turning against God if they fail to believe a certain, way and will be condemned to spiritual death for their disbelief, is indeed a 'hateful' thing to do.

And then to accuse the people who refuse to accept such a hateful accusation as being 'hateful' just adds insult to injury.

Proselytizers never fail to amaze me by the cold-blooded nature of their proselytizing. First they try to make out like God will 'hate' you if you fail to accept their proselytizing, and when that fails, they resort to branding you as a 'hateful' person for not accepting their proselytizing.

Where does it end?

I think this is so totally fitting to this thread topic too.

"Aggressive Spiritual Predators"

If they can't convert you they attempt to brand you as being a 'hateful' person.

So you accuse me of 'hatred' because I see you as preaching?

Especially after the fact that you came onto these forums originally proclaiming that you are a 'Servant of God who's purpose it is to spread his word'?

Why should you view any of that as 'hatred' on my part?

I personally think you are just trying to make me look bad because I refuse to accept or support your views.

You say,


Well, fine.

So you believe that some God has punished all of humanity for their supposed fall from grace. You believe that Jesus is the son of that God and that everyone who does not accept him as such will be condemned to spiritual death. You believe that the only wages of sin is death, and that somehow disbelief that Jesus was "The Christ" amounts to "sin".

I personally don't believe any of that.

I believe that the Old Testament is basically a take-off from Greek mythological ideas of a male Godhead who requires blood sacrifices to be appeased.

I believe that the stories about a man named Jesus are nothing more than superstitious rumors potentially sparked by the life of an actual mortal man who basically rejected the Old Testament just as I do, and was crucified for his views.

There is no 'hatred' in any of that.

I give total respect to the historical figure (presumably named Jesus) who may have sparked these superstitious rumors. It's the rumors themselves that I reject on many rational grounds.

There is no 'hatred' in any of that.

On the contrary, I have great respect for anyone who stood up against the immoral teachings of the Torah. That religion basically had people judging each other and stoning each other to death in the name of God. It also had people judging others to be blasphemers and heathens and killing them as well. In fact, the only thing that allowed the Pharisees to incite a mob to support their crucifixion of Jesus was indeed the teachings of the Torah itself. That's where they got the religious authority to murder blasphemers in the name of God in the first place.

~~~~~

From my point of view any God who would direct people to murder heathens who blasphemy "His Word", and then send his only begotten son into that same crowed to blasphemy "His Word" would need to be a truly confused entity.

Since I find it impossible to believe that an all-wise entity would do such an utterly foolish thing, I conclude that these stories, as proclaimed in the New Testament, cannot possibly be true.

Again, there is no 'hatred' in any of that.

I'm simply rejecting stories that I see as being totally nonsensical.

~~~~~

I actually "save" Jesus, from this incredibly unbelievable scenario and elevate him to the status of having been a very wise mortal man who actually rejected to these immortal behaviors and teachings.

So where is there any 'hatred' in any of that?

You call it 'hatred' simply because you would prefer to believe in those stories.

You call it 'hatred' simply because you are frustrated that you can't get me to agree with your belief and support of these stories.

But I simply see no reason to give them my support.

I do not care to support what I see as superstitious rumors about a God who would condemn all of humanity to spiritual death for what I consider to be trivial things.

~~~~

Not meant to argue with your "beliefs", but simply to once again explain why I do not believe in these stories allow me to say the following:

It makes absolutely no sense to me that some supposedly all-wise God would condemn all of humanity to spiritual death as a punishment for having disobeyed him, only to later send his 'only begotten son' as an offering to 'save' humanity from his very own condemnation of them.

At the very least this would represent a very unstable God who can't even decide how he wants to deal with his creation.

I realize that you'll no doubt have your 'apologetic excuses' for how you think this could potentially make some kind of sense. And that's fine. But I can assure you up front that your excuses are not going to make any sense to me. They never have in the past, and I see no reason to believe that they will start to make any sense in the future. I've heard most of these apologetic arguments already from standard religious sources. They fail to impress me or solve any of the issues that I have with these ancient stories.

No 'hatred' involved with any of that.

~~~~

If you're going to continually perceive my refusal to accept your beliefs as some form of 'hatred' aimed toward you, or toward the religion that you would like to believe in, then please quit reading my posts and responding to my views.

There is no hatred aimed toward you personally.

Hatred aimed toward the religion? Possibly in some capacity without a doubt. I do confess to having a very great dislike of the relentless proselytizing of the religion being preached to people as almost emotional harassment, or emotional terrorism if they refuse to join, agree with, and support the religion.

That's the topic of this very thread, "Aggressive Spiritual Predators".

Yes, I view that kind of behavior to be quite negative and detrimental to society. I 'hate' it in the same way that I 'hate' something like cancer. Such relentless religious proselytizing is, IMHO, a cancer on society.

I also find it to be particularly distasteful when it is done in an underhanded way. Like under the pretense that a person is merely 'discussing their spiritual beliefs' when in fact, they are proselytizing to the hilt without any consideration at all for the other person's beliefs.

Honest preachers who constantly harass people are bad enough. Dishonest preachers are the epitome of hypocrisy. There is no 'low' to which they will not stoop to continue their proselyting harassment toward 'non-believers' of their religion.

And when it becomes that low, it deserves to be 'hated'.

Nothing good can come of deception. If a spirituality cannot be put forth with total open honesty then it has become corrupt and has nothing but rotten fruit to bear.

Just my own personal view on that.

No 'hatred' intended. Especially if the shoe doesn't fit.

No wonder he can afford to turn his other cheek to his enemies.

They can't get close enough to slap it when he's wielding a whip.



He forgot to tell his disciples! "Turn your other cheek, but be sure to have your whip in hand when you do that".

Again, you aren't being consistent in your excuses for these stories, you had just said:



The entire human race is nothing more than a conglomeration of individual people Cowboy.

You have a very weird way of looking at things. You even talk about addressing a forum but not the individuals who make up that forum. That makes absolutely no sense at all.

The kinds of utterly nonsensical things you have to come up with in an effort to support these fables is unbelievable.




Well, for someone who isn't here to impress me you sure do quote enough of my posts and address enough of my the points that I personally make.

Obviously you're out to try to impress someone. Otherwise why even bother to respond to my posts at all?



You specifically quote and address the points I personally make, arguing against them.

If you can't see that this is 'arguing' then I question your understanding of the concept.

I most certainly do 'argue' against your claims, because you are addressing them to the FORUM, of which I am a member.

So at least I'm not in denial of what's going on here.



I'm familiar with the mythology and rumors Cowboy. I personally don't believe they have verbatim merit.

If I were going to accept these fables at face value as the verbatim truth I would have no choice but to accept everything they say.

It is my position that these writings are not worthy of being believed on pure faith alone, nor do they have any rational merit.

So why you continually repeat the stories to me is beyond me. You may as well be reciting Greek Mythology as far as I'm concerned.



Christianity is infamous for it's proselytizing and evangelizing nature.

Yes, I do post my views to expose these myths to others.

You, yourself are extremely inconsistent in your claims. When you first came onto these forums you proclaimed that you are a "Servant of God" who is out to "Spread the Word". You also stated that you were out to "Save" people because you care about them and love them.

At one point you even proclaimed to be in continuous TWO-WAY communication with God himself. You have proclaimed in the past that you know that your faith-based beliefs are true, etc.

Lately you have been trying to claim that you are merely here to discuss religious ideas. You also claim that you aren't 'arguing' with me.

In spite of your constantly changing positions, I have never ceased to see you as a relentless proselytizer of the religion.

Today you claim, "Doesn't matter to me if you believe it or not,... Not trying to change anyone's mind".

How does that fit in with your original stance that you are a Servant of God working to Spread His Word, and that you care what people believe because you love them?

You've sure changed considerably over time.



If that's true then there would make no sense for Jesus to go to hell to take the place of humans.

So I still don't see where your position makes any sense.



My point was simply to ask what sense it makes for Jesus to have gone to hell to "take our place" if you claim that's not where we'd end up anyway.

Nothing you've said here has justified your inconsistency.




You're right that you could never convince me even if you wanted to. That's one point I will agree with you on.

However you are indeed wrong when you say that you aren't preaching.

Look at what you've just said:


That's preaching.

You didn't say, "I personally believe that the only reward for sin is death".

I don't truly care what you believe Cowboy.

I just explain why I don't buy into these ancient fables.

As far as I'm concerned they are one culture's attempt at building a political system based on a religion making out like it represents the word of a God.

Religion was a central theme in social politics in those days.

You state, "The only reward for sin is death" like as if I should believe that.

Nope, that's your faith-based belief not mine.

That's the foundation of your religious fears. You have evidently convinced yourself (have been convinced by this religion) that you are indeed a sinner, you deserve death, and the only way out is to join the religion and support it to the hilt.

And because of your extreme determination to do precisely that, I can't help but believe that you have been totally terrified by this idea that you wouldn't dare consider that the religion might potentially be false, because that would threaten the status of your salvation. And that would be horrible! You'd then be cast into spiritual death, and this is clearly something that you don't even want to remotely consider. Better cling to having been 'saved'.

Like you have said in a previous post. "What have you got to lose?" From your perspective Christianity (or the biblical religion) is the only religion that is really holding out a threat to you. Cover that single base, and if you're wrong it's not sweat. If the religion turns out to be true, you've got the base covered.

So from your perspective you can't go wrong.

I, on the other hand, do not fear these ancient religious threats of a mean bully God that I need to be 'saved' from. So that's a base that I truly have no desire to 'cover' at all.

If it turns out to be true, it would be so thoroughly disgusting that at that point I wouldn't even care if I was cast into a pit of hell.

If we were created by such an insensitive bully God like that, then I really don't even want to know about it. And I could certainly never respect such a demonic entity.

I'd have to pretend to like such a bully God in an effort to appease its wrath.

And what good would that do? Surely this God would recognize my pretense.

So Christianity has nothing to offer me in any case.

I'd have to pretend to believe in it just to try to appease its bully God.

It's just a totally worthless religion for me.

Truly.

And does it really make any sense for people to expect other people to believe a religion on the pure faith that some dastardly God will be exceedingly cruel to them if they don't believe in him on pure faith?

I'm mean seriously. Why anyone would believe such a thing as a matter of pure faith is totally beyond me.




Well, I for one certainly see no reason to believe in a religion that has people utterly terrified that some supposedly loving God will be extremely cruel and mean to them if they fail to worship a particular religion.

There is no way that this represents my idea of love.



Exactly. As far as I'm concerned the very idea of a supposedly loving God who is chomping at the bit to cast people into a state of eternal damnation, suffering, and torture, is an oxymoron.

This would be like proclaiming that Hitler was a loving man who merely condemned those who refused to serve his purpose.

As a faith-based religion does Christianity truly offer anything worthy of placing faith in?

With all due respect, I personally don't see where it does. You'd have to believe on faith that some bully God is out to hurt you before it would even be worth considering. And I'm not about to believe on faith that some bully God is out to hurt me.

Well there's your God with supposedly "Divine Wisdom" solving his problems with "punishments" again.



And of course I would need to deserve spiritual death in this religion Cowboy.

If I didn't deserve it then the creator would be totally unrighteous inflicting me with that fate as a "punishment".

~~~~

And yes Cowboy I'm listening to you in depth.

You're trying to justify this by somehow suggesting that this "punishment" was placed on all of humanity rather than individuals, etc.

Hey, fine. I you wish to believe that on pure faith for your own needs to believe in this religion, more power to you.

It doesn't impress me. The idea of all of humanity being 'punished' with spiritual death if they fail to accept Jesus Christ as their "savior" isn't going to help as far as I'm concerned.

Like I say, if you care to place your faith in such things please feel free. But trying to "argue" that I should accept those things is a total waste of your time I can assure you of that.

You should especially know that it's a total waste of time posting verses from scriptures that I have clearly stated I see as total superstitious rumors.

Why should I believe those superstitious rumors?



I'm sure he wasn't. But these stories claim that he was born of a mortal woman who was impregnated by a God. Back in those days, that was a common myth and such beings are defined to be 'demigods'.

I disagree that Jesus was our "God". I personally believe that the person who gave rise to the Jesus myths was indeed a mortal man just like you and me.




Again, why should I believe in such superstitious rumors?

Just because someone wrote stories like this doesn't make them true Cowboy.

And besides, why would Jesus need to go to hell to take our place? I thought you didn't believe in hell for humans?

With all due respect, you simply aren't consistent in your claims concerning this religion.

You reject the idea of hell for humans and the idea that people will be sent to "everlasting punishment" because you don't want to get into defending a God who would be so cruel. So you try to do away with hell for humans by proclaiming that we won't be sent to hell, but instead we'll just simply die if we don't make it to heaven.

Now you have Jesus going to hell to take our punishment for us.

From my perspective you're just grasping at anything you can find in the moment to try to support these myths without really paying a lot of attention to a larger coherent picture.

You're just not convincing, IMHO.

I see no reason to place my faith in a God who would condemn all of humanity to hell, or even simply spiritual death, and threaten to send them there if they merely don't believe in a particular ancient religion from a male-chauvinistic culture that claims to speak for God.

I'm sorry, but that whole scenario is simply outrageous, IMHO.

Truly, Cowboy. I'm not trying to be difficult. I sincerely believe that this ancient religion has absolutely no more merit than Greek mythology.

I'm sorry if you find my conclusions to be less than respectable.

I can't help that.

First off, everyone doesn't agree with your interpretations of things anyway. So I'm not really concerned with your personal interpretations. I speak out against how the religion affects the bulk of humanity. And based on how I personally see it.

I've told you many times that I'm not interested in Cowboyainity. I have no clue what that even entails.

~~~~

Secondly, what you just said here about Jesus doesn't help one iota.

You're claiming that Jesus "died spiritually" to take my place because spiritual death is somehow what I naturally "deserve"

As far as I'm concerned that situation right there is an extremely negative thing.

Why should I deserve spiritual death?

What did I ever do to deserve such a horrible fate if there is indeed a spiritual essence to reality?

I certainly see no reason to place my faith in the idea that I somehow deserve spiritual death in a spiritual universe.

That's truly absurd, IMHO.

I have never done anything in my entire life that would warrant such a harsh "punishment" if reality truly is spiritual.

So for this religion to even imply that I would deserve such a fate, simply has no merit. And it most certainty isn't an idea that I would care to believe on faith.

Moreover, if the punishment that Jesus supposedly "took my place" for was a punishment of spiritual death, then clearly Jesus could not have possibly taken my place because according to this religion Jesus didn't die spiritually. He only "died" momentarily for 3 days and then he was spiritually resurrected. Supposedly he will live for all of eternity.

Thus these stories makes no sense claiming that he "took my punishment for me" when the punishment being referred to is spiritual death. This is why I claim that these are necessarily fables Cowboy. They simply make no sense at all.

~~~~

Also, as you surely know by now. I already have a perfectly sound explanation for who Jesus was and how these superstitious rumors got started about him being a demigod who was supposedly born of a virgin, etc.

~~~~

I ask you seriously Cowboy; which makes more sense to place your faith in?

The idea that Jesus was a demigod born of a virgin who died to take your place in spiritual death which you naturally deserve?

Or the idea that Jesus was a misunderstood mortal man who actually taught against the immoral practices of the Torah and was crucified for his religious rebellion, only to become the victim of religious rumors that used his story to nail him right back onto the very fables the he himself rejected?

Personally if I'm going to place my faith in something I would much prefer the latter to be true. So that's where I'd spend my faith.

No way am I going to waist my faith believing that I deserve spiritual death in order to support what appears to me to be totally outrageous superstitious rumors.

That would be a total waste of my faith, IMHO.

I deserve spiritual death in a spiritual universe?

And I'm supposed to believe that on faith?

I don't think so.

~~~~

No, that's not true.

The overall story teaches us of a God who feels that punishment is a valid way to deal with problem children.

It also teaches us of a God who cannot forgive people unless someone has suffered for their disobedience.

It also teaches us of a God who supports inequality in relationships in terms of gender.

If this God is an example, of "divine supreme wisdom", then these stories are teaching us that the greatest wisdom of all is to solve your problems using violence and punishments.

I totally disagree with that message, and I see nothing "loving" or "wise" in such a message.

How these stories might claim we should behave is a moot point if the God of the stories is setting poor examples of "Divine Wisdom", because in-the-end that is the ultimate message that truly comes through.