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Topic: Let's do the time warp
ThomasJB Joined Sat 01/10/09 Posts: 4240	Wed 05/06/09 09:55 PM
Star Trek's warp drive: Not impossible Show's hallmark invention could someday become science instead of fiction By Clara Moskowitz Some physicists say the faster-than-light travel technology may one day enable humans to jet between stars for weekend getaways. Clearly it won't be an easy task. The science is complex, but not strictly impossible, according to some researchers studying how to make it happen. The trick seems to be to find some other means of propulsion besides rockets, which would never be able to accelerate a ship to velocities faster than that of light, the fundamental speed limit set by Einstein's general theory of relativity. Luckily for us, this speed limit only applies within space-time (the continuum of three dimensions of space plus one of time that we live in). While any given object can't travel faster than light speed within space-time, theory holds, perhaps space-time itself could travel. "The idea is that you take a chunk of space-time and move it," said Marc Millis, former head of NASA's Breakthrough Propulsion Physics Project. "The vehicle inside that bubble thinks that it's not moving at all. It's the space-time that's moving." Already happened? One reason this idea seems credible is that scientists think it may already have happened. Some models suggest that space-time expanded at a rate faster than light speed during a period of rapid inflation shortly after the Big Bang. "If it could do it for the Big Bang, why not for our space drives?" Millis said. To make the technique feasible, scientists will have to think of some creative new means of propulsion to move space-time rather than a spaceship.According to General Relativity, any concentration of mass or energy warps space-time around it (by this reasoning, gravity is simply the curvature of space-time that causes smaller masses to fall inward toward larger masses). So perhaps some unique geometry of mass or exotic form of energy can manipulate a bubble of space-time so that it moves faster than light-speed, and carries any objects within it along for the ride. "If we find some way to alter the properties of space-time in an imbalanced fashion, so behind the spacecraft it's doing one thing and in front of it it's doing something else, will then space-time push on the craft and move it?" Millis said. This idea was first proposed in 1994 by physicist Miguel Alcubierre. In the lab Already some studies have claimed to find possible signatures of moving space-time. For example, scientists rotated super-cold rings in a lab. They found that still gyroscopes placed above the rings seem to think they themselves are rotating simply because of the presence of the spinning rings beneath. The researchers postulated that the ultra-cold rings were somehow dragging space-time, and the gyroscope was detecting the effect. Other studies found that the region between two parallel uncharged metal plates seems to have less energy than the surrounding space. Scientists have termed this a kind of "negative energy," which might be just the thing needed to move space-time.The catch is that massive amounts of this negative energy would probably be required to warp space-time enough to transport a bubble faster than light speed. Huge breakthroughs will be needed not just in propulsion but in energy. Some experts think harnessing the mysterious force called dark energy — thought to power the acceleration of the universe's expansion — could provide the key. Even though it's a far cry between these preliminary lab results and actual warp drives, some physicists are optimistic. "We still don't even know if those things are possible or impossible, but at least we've progressed far enough to where there are things that we can actually research to chip away at the unknowns," Millis told SPACE.com. "Even if they turn out to be impossible, by asking these questions, we're likely to discover things that otherwise we might overlook." http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30600749/

MirrorMirror Joined Fri 10/26/07 Posts: 89680	Thu 05/07/09 08:29 AM
Star Trek's warp drive: Not impossible Show's hallmark invention could someday become science instead of fiction By Clara Moskowitz Some physicists say the faster-than-light travel technology may one day enable humans to jet between stars for weekend getaways. Clearly it won't be an easy task. The science is complex, but not strictly impossible, according to some researchers studying how to make it happen. The trick seems to be to find some other means of propulsion besides rockets, which would never be able to accelerate a ship to velocities faster than that of light, the fundamental speed limit set by Einstein's general theory of relativity. Luckily for us, this speed limit only applies within space-time (the continuum of three dimensions of space plus one of time that we live in). While any given object can't travel faster than light speed within space-time, theory holds, perhaps space-time itself could travel. "The idea is that you take a chunk of space-time and move it," said Marc Millis, former head of NASA's Breakthrough Propulsion Physics Project. "The vehicle inside that bubble thinks that it's not moving at all. It's the space-time that's moving." Already happened? One reason this idea seems credible is that scientists think it may already have happened. Some models suggest that space-time expanded at a rate faster than light speed during a period of rapid inflation shortly after the Big Bang. "If it could do it for the Big Bang, why not for our space drives?" Millis said. To make the technique feasible, scientists will have to think of some creative new means of propulsion to move space-time rather than a spaceship.According to General Relativity, any concentration of mass or energy warps space-time around it (by this reasoning, gravity is simply the curvature of space-time that causes smaller masses to fall inward toward larger masses). So perhaps some unique geometry of mass or exotic form of energy can manipulate a bubble of space-time so that it moves faster than light-speed, and carries any objects within it along for the ride. "If we find some way to alter the properties of space-time in an imbalanced fashion, so behind the spacecraft it's doing one thing and in front of it it's doing something else, will then space-time push on the craft and move it?" Millis said. This idea was first proposed in 1994 by physicist Miguel Alcubierre. In the lab Already some studies have claimed to find possible signatures of moving space-time. For example, scientists rotated super-cold rings in a lab. They found that still gyroscopes placed above the rings seem to think they themselves are rotating simply because of the presence of the spinning rings beneath. The researchers postulated that the ultra-cold rings were somehow dragging space-time, and the gyroscope was detecting the effect. Other studies found that the region between two parallel uncharged metal plates seems to have less energy than the surrounding space. Scientists have termed this a kind of "negative energy," which might be just the thing needed to move space-time.The catch is that massive amounts of this negative energy would probably be required to warp space-time enough to transport a bubble faster than light speed. Huge breakthroughs will be needed not just in propulsion but in energy. Some experts think harnessing the mysterious force called dark energy — thought to power the acceleration of the universe's expansion — could provide the key. Even though it's a far cry between these preliminary lab results and actual warp drives, some physicists are optimistic. "We still don't even know if those things are possible or impossible, but at least we've progressed far enough to where there are things that we can actually research to chip away at the unknowns," Millis told SPACE.com. "Even if they turn out to be impossible, by asking these questions, we're likely to discover things that otherwise we might overlook." http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30600749/ cool

Abracadabra Joined Thu 04/12/07 Posts: 17851	Thu 05/07/09 09:41 AM
Warp Drive Technology Theory is something that I have done some considerable serious work in in the past. I have come to some disappointing conclusions (based on what we currently know). In other words, I have concluded that it would be basically impossible technology based on our current understanding of physics. I'll try to elaborate why by bouncing off some pieces of the original post. Already happened? One reason this idea seems credible is that scientists think it may already have happened. Some models suggest that space-time expanded at a rate faster than light speed during a period of rapid inflation shortly after the Big Bang. "If it could do it for the Big Bang, why not for our space drives?" Millis said. I can't believe that this was even stated. Millis' statement actually reveals and ignorance of this principle. Yes, it is believed that the space-time expanded at a rate faster than light speed during Inflation. However, that's totally irrelevant to the limitations of traveling THROUGH space at speeds greater than light. Mathematically speaking, the fact that space expanded faster than lightspeed does not violate the laws of Relativity. The limitation of travling faster than the speed of light, hold only for matter (or energy) that travels through space, but it in no way applies to the expansion of space itself. So the answer to the question, "If it could do it for the Big Bang, why not for our space drives?" is because traveling through space is a completely different concept (phenomena) than expanding space. Of course this brings up the question of creating a 'warped' space bubble. Which is addressed in the next quote: To make the technique feasible, scientists will have to think of some creative new means of propulsion to move space-time rather than a spaceship.According to General Relativity, any concentration of mass or energy warps space-time around it (by this reasoning, gravity is simply the curvature of space-time that causes smaller masses to fall inward toward larger masses). So perhaps some unique geometry of mass or exotic form of energy can manipulate a bubble of space-time so that it moves faster than light-speed, and carries any objects within it along for the ride. Yep, I think this was indeed the idea behind the Star Trek sci-fi technology. And it sounds great in principle. However, General Relativity doesn't allow for spacetime to tear or to even be purposefully torn. But that's exactly what would need to be done to create such a 'warped' cavity. The "inside" of cavity would need to be devoid of spacetime. This presents and even further problem. If space could be torn to create such a "spacetimeless cavity" then how could anything that is made of spacetime be placed within that cavity? What many people can't get past is the Newtonian Billiard-Ball vision of reality. They think of objects as having some 'seperate' reality in their own right. In other words, they think, "Hey, if we could create a region that is devoid of the fabric of spacetime we could PLACE our spaceship in it and off we go! But that's Newtonian thinking! The very spaceship itself is nothing more than a particular standing wave of SPACETIME. It could not continue to exist in a region of void where there was no spacetime in which to support it's standing waves of existence. Atoms are not billard balls. They are standing waves of spacetime. Warp or distort the spacetime and you warp or distort all of the matter that it gives rise to in that location! So this isn't even a feasible idea in THEORY. Even though it's a far cry between these preliminary lab results and actual warp drives, some physicists are optimistic. I have a hard time believing that serious physicsist are optimistic about this. Unless they are still thinking in terms of Newtonian objects. And unfortunately many phsyicists do indeed still cling to these original intuitive notions. We are manifestations of spacetime. We are not Newtonian-like objects that reside in an empty space. We are a product of spacetime vibrations! We are standing waves of spacetime! There are many things that I could share on this topic, but when I stop and think about it, it could easily turn into a book. As far as creating warps in spacetime (actually we'd need to create RIPS that are cavities that are devoid of spacetime) I think that's a pretty hopeless approach. Even if it could be done, the amounts of energy required would be astronomical. Along these same lines I have pondered quite deeply that concept of being an anti-gravity machine. Based on General Relativity gravity cannot be 'sheilded'. The only way to control it is to indeed warp spacetime. And that's not out of the question at all. In fact, to create an anti-gravity machine would be rather simple (abiet costly in terms of energy and technology). But it's simple in theory. You simply warp the space above you to the same extent as the space below you is being warped. Then your immediate vincinity would be gravity free! However, what would this mean technically? Well, if you are standing on the earth, you'd need to create a gravitational field above you that equals that of the Earth! Fine. Now you are floating in a gravity free environment! BUT WAIT! What about the Earth? What would happen to the Earth? Well, the Earth TOO would feel that gravitational field that you created above yourself and be attracted to it! At worse you'd be squished to death between your anti gravity machine and the earth as they slam into each other with the same force of two Earth-like planets crashing into each other. At best, you've somehow supported your anti-gravity machine so that it can't move any closer to the earth. This would actually require structures to hold the anti-gravity machine and the earth apart. Now you've got a huge anti-gravity machine that is actually just connected to the earth so that it doesn't collide with it. Moreover, the Moon would sense this new warpage of spacetime and think that the Earth has suddenly doubled in mass and would come crashing down from the sky. In fact, the whole earth-anti-gravity system would become a single object of twice the mass of the earth and the entire Earth would start to fall inward toward the sun. Lots of consequences to deal with when you warp spacetime. It's not an easy trick to pull off even in theory. I personally feel that the spacetime warp is probably not a feasible technology. Although I agree it sounded GREAT on Star Trek! However there maybe other possiblities. One possiblity has to to with quantum tunneling and the fact that Bose-Einstein condensates can bring quantum effects into the macro world. I personally feel that based on our currently knowledge, this is a far more promising picture. So I wouldn't give up on the final result (i.e. beating the lightspeed barrier). It just might not be accomplished via warping spacetime is all.

creativesoul Joined Mon 04/16/07 Posts: 9166	Thu 05/07/09 09:51 AM
My only question is... How does anything travel through time without being in it?

smiless Joined Wed 09/26/07 Posts: 13765	Thu 05/07/09 10:12 AM Edited by smiless on Thu 05/07/09 10:13 AM
Fortunately our imagination and knowledge will take us there of inventing ways to travel faster. It wasn't long ago that people thought it was a hoax to land on the moon. Therefore, I believe time travel or warp speed will happen one day. If in our lifetime, I can't be certain, but perhaps for the future generations. I still think when Captain James Kirk used his gadget that looks like a cellphone and said "Scotty beam me back up" the man who watched this gave a light bulb invention. He simply said why aren't there phones that we can just flip open and use without any use of cable. Perhaps a type of satellite connection of somekind. And before you know it in the early 80's people had these huge cellphones worthy of using as a weapon if needed. lol Today they are so small I wonder how heavyset people can punch the numbers with their thick fingers. Nevertheless, time warp or travel will be a process when we keep beating record speeds throughout the generations.

Abracadabra Joined Thu 04/12/07 Posts: 17851	Thu 05/07/09 10:28 AM
My only question is... How does anything travel through time without being in it? In truth, it's actually not even correct to speak in terms of traveling through time. If we accept that actuality truly is a fabric of spacetime as Einstien showed, then it's meaningless to think of time as some sort of absolute in it's own right. However, having said that, most physicists and philosophers are not prepared to give up a notion of absolute time that somehow exists apart or in addition to, or along-side spacetime. Paul Davies addresses this issue in his book "About Time". He suggest that there must be more than one kind of time. Yet he confesses that this concept has been extremely elusive, especially in terms of being stated in any consistent mathematical sense. In fact, if we could quantify this notion of absolute time in a mathematical sense, we might be able to get a handle on it. The problem is that any attempts to do do this fail. They end up being mathematically inconsistent. (i.e. the concept of the abolute time loses any well-define meaning) There's simply nothing absolute to anchor it too. The relativistic time just totally does it's own thing as though any absolute time doesn't even exist. There's no way to synchronize these two abstract concepts. And if you can't synchoronize them, they they can't be mathematically consistent quantities. Damn I wish I was 20 years old again. I think I'd become a physicst. I know I already did that once, but if I could just start over again knowing what I know now, I might actually be able to come up with something profound. Oh well, back to gardening in the back yard for now. We do need a new major breakthough, Like Relativity and QM. What will it be? We're about due for something new. I wouldn't call String Theory a breakthrough. I'd call it an act of desperation. We need the next Einstien, Newton, Bohr, etc. Where are all the scientists nowaday? Probably working on String Theory.

galendgirl Joined Sun 07/06/08 Posts: 24728	Sat 05/23/09 08:03 PM
I'm apparently a sick, sick person... I read the title of the thread and the Rocky Horror Picture Show song immediately popped into my head, rather than a space adventure.