bored, I doubt you really know or understand my views. But if you wish
to know, I will be happy to discuss it. Perhaps you can start by
telling me what you 'think' my view is, in this discussion? Then I can
explain from there, and you won't have to interpret anything.

No thanx you have demonstrated your mindset already and how you feel
about the Christian faith.

Redykeulous,

If you are seeking truth with an open heart, you will find it. God
wants you to know Him, but he will not reveal Himself to you until you
have proven that you want to know Him. You don't have to pray, read the
Bible or do anything else. I was truely saved one day when I was
looking at pornography. God will pull you out of the mud and wash you
off, he doesn't care what you are doing or what you have done. He loves
you and wants you to love Him. If I can be saved while looking at
pornography, then you can be saved without reading the Bible.

Spider you wrote:

"""You can't any more clear than that. God got extremely angry with
Miriam and Aaron, because they badmouthed Moses for having an Ethiopian
wife.
This is a dead horse and I'm done beating it."""

Keep the stick out for just a moment.

Was God angry because they were badmouthing Moses (judgeing) his
actions, or because they had misinterpreted the law?

Still learning here!

Red,

Basically, it's like this. First, I suggest you read Numbers 12, so you
can see for yourself. But I'll break it down like I was explaining it
to my kids.

Moses married a black chick, but that didn't sit well with his brother
and sister. They thought less of Moses because of that. So God called
them all together and asked Miram and Aaron to step forward. God then
said "How dare you question Moses character! When I speak to prophets,
I speak to them in dreams and riddles, but I speak to Moses face to
face. Who are YOU to question Moses or doubt his character? You claim
to love ME, but you are not afraid to speak poorly of my most favored
servant." Moses then begged God to spare his brother and sister's
lives, but God was so angry with Miriam, that he cursed her anyways.

Spider, I think we are communicating very well. If I can't present to
you the reasons for my thoughts, how can we ever expect a two sided
conversation. I think you have given me some wonderful perspectives
from our chats. I do appreciate them all.

Here to, I am just wondering that same old question, only on a new
topic, if what the Bible says, is as 'plain as day', what are the causes
for so much difference in Christian doctrine?

In the end Spider, I have much respect for your contributions here. In
fact, I have never left a session at JSH in anger.

There seems to be some idea that 'sameness' creates a good sound
relationship. I say Communication, is what creates the best
realtaionships.

If it's not a burden to you, and if it does not harm your standings in
your Christian standings, I would like to think that my hand, extended
in friendship, at the end of each nights conversation, will be accepted.

And maybe this gesture would serve to show others that difference of
mind does not, alone, create animosity.

Sorry Spider, I think our posts are time sensitive, or overlapping
somehow. Anyway, I just read the responce of your 'plain text'
explanation. (smiling) I did understand that GoD was angry for
attacking the character of Moses. My question before I read your
explanation was trying to determine if it was judgement he was angry
over or the fact that they were biased because of a scriptual law that
dissallowed interracial marriage.

I think I see better since you use the word "character" that perhaps God
was inferring that Moses knew and followed the law. But that is based
of what you said, not what I got from the spripture as I read it.

There is one thing stated correctly in the 'cut and paste' I entered,
and that was that every man sins and we can not believe that Moses was
any different. So whether Moses was right within the law or whether the
sin punished was for judgement rather than for disrespect, is still a
question for me, though I freely admit that the way you interpreted it
for me, does make sense, at least as far as why you believe as you do.
So thank you.

Redykeulous wrote:

Here to, I am just wondering that same old question, only on a new
topic, if what the Bible says, is as 'plain as day', what are the causes
for so much difference in Christian doctrine?

==========================================================================
SpiderCMB replied:

If you look at Protestant Christians, you are going to find two main
schools of thought: Calvinism and Armenism. This is the old
pre-destination vs free will debate. Calvinists break down into
hardshelled vs softshelled. The largest differences you will find in
protestant Christian are those groups. You also have your sprinklers vs
your dunkers (Baptism...sprinkle with water or dunk them). Then you
have your law vs Grace distinction. The scriptures involved in these
various doctrine are often confusing and appear to be contradictory to
most non-Christians. My beliefs (I won't say where they lie) can
explain all of these scriptures. I was challenged by someone and almost
lost my faith. I had to ask God for guidance and he provided it
faithfully. I understand the arguements on both sides and I have
choosen the side that is right for me. Christianity is SUPPOSED to have
differences.

Romans 14:23(b)
-------------------------------------------------------
and everything that does not come from faith is sin.
-------------------------------------------------------

The above verse is what creates a great deal of diversity in
Christianity. Guilt or conviction is a gift of the Holy Spirit to allow
us to know when we have done wrong. Some Christians believe that they
must never work on Sunday and they feel guilty if they do. I believe
that those Christians don't spend enough time with God, so he demands
that they spend Sunday with Him. Other Christians do Bible reading the
prayer throughout the week, they won't mind working on Sunday if they
need to, because God doesn't convict them in their hearts. The same
applies to most doctrine of the Bible (what you should eat, wear,
tattoos, hair, etc)

Each Christian is called by their conscience to serve God in the manner
he desires. The problem I have with denominations is that I feel they
created dogma where God wanted a dynamic and personal relationship. God
should write his desires on your heart, rather than you reading them out
of a church's charter. So I choose to be non-denominational, because I
want to be like a boat with my sail up, I will go where the Holy Spirit
blows me.

Redykeulous,

Moses offended God in small ways. He told God he could be God's
messenger, because he stuttered. He also offended God in one big way.
But he was right in his marriage, because his wife was a Jew. We know
that, because Moses children were Jews and you are only a Jew by birth
if your mother was a Jew. Her conversion isn't documented, but it
didn't need to be, because any Jew would know that for Moses' children
to be Jews, his wife had to be a Jew.

That is a very good point spider.

Included in which is that you should not doubt your faith.

And above it is another point. It says not to condemn yourself but have
faith.

And before that is says to have faith in yourself in the presence of
god.

So I see this

and it is good.

Gotta tell ya, Spider, this style is way more enjoyable to read. For
future reference, I think I prefer the way you explain it to the kids.

Differentkindofwench,

Red and I always have lovely conversations. She makes it clear that she
doesn't believe in Christianity, but she doesn't attack me either. I
enjoy the conversations that I have with Red and always look forward to
future discussions. I believe you will find that Red and I have always
had these sort of discussions.

spider my computer got infected by a porn site im not into sittig on the
sideline when it comes to sex.it must have been gods will that my
computer was infected im not into porn never have been it was there i
looked felt no guilt .just dosent do any thing for me.ive got mudflaps
on my computer now

i was wishin for an APPLAUSE emo!!!!!


salut! Red and Spider....

Touchy subject. The bible speaks on all subjects such as this as being
pure. Ezra and Nehemiah when they found the book of the law had all the
pagan wives run off. Purity is how ever you define it is a must. Miles

Spider, fabulous posts, both of them. I have a much more defined view.
I have always sort of divided the Christian factions as you have shown
me, but didn't quite understand why they had such a difference of
'opinion' (for lack of a better word there).

I actually have a much better hold on your beliefs now too. You know
how I've always noticed that you have a 'different' way of approaching
these topics. I see know that you refuse to get caught in the middle of
the two arguments, as they are both actually validated through the
Bible. And the end result for both, is their salvation through their
faith and acceptance of Jesus as Christ and Lord.

Go ahead, laugh, I may be hard to get a point accross to, but I hate to
quit. Thank, Spider, I knew I could get there, with the right
authoritative voice.

Now don't think, I won't ask more difficult quesitions, understanding
one point does not mean I get the whole picture. LOL

No. I would never consider having any kind of a relationship, be it
friend or otherwise, with a believer of any religion.

Okay, I'm a little late joining this topic. But first answer would be
Yes.

However, I was just talking to a friend about this.

I think I am a hypocrite. When I was looking for someone to marry and
have children with, it was a given that I would marry someone of the
same faith. I am Jewish. This would raise no concerns about the
marriage ceremony, holidays, or the upbringing of the children.

Now that I am older and hopefully wiser, I am not sure if I would do the
same if I was looking to get serious with someone. It might be because
I do not plan on having any more children or because of the shortage of
Jewish men in my area.

I honestly think being with someone of the same faith is easier in so
many ways. One set of holidays to celebrate, one house of worship, etc.
Am I making sense here or babbling from lack of sleep this week?

Well yes it would matter. Look at all the events around you taking place
right now. Flooding, fires, earthquakes, drought, stronger storms, more
powerful tornadoes. Children acting like they do now adays, seemingly
without love, compassion or feeling. The bilbe speaks about all of this
but people make excuses. The weather is blamed on global warming and
saying it's our fault. Well it could ver well be, but the bible never
mentions why things go so chaotic. We blame the children on lack of
discipline, too much disipline, parents that have abused them and
alcohol and drugs. Yes they are some major underlying causes but the
bible does not say what is going to cause children to act the way it
predicts. Believe what ever you want. It matters to me and that's that.

thank you FedMan for standing up for Jesus may he blessed your weekend