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Topic: Obama Will Lose in a Landslide...
motowndowntown's photo
Sat 02/04/12 06:07 PM



You want to know what killing jobs, killing manufacturing in America?...Then read this....The bailout was nothing more than a pizzing contest...one hand washing the other.....


One of the greatest threats facing our country today doesn't come from outside our borders. It's not the possibility of a terrorist attack. It is not the continually increasing illegal immigration across our southern border. It's not even the likelihood of a disrupted oil supply.
The greatest problem we face is the self-imposed cost and regulatory burden placed on the development of manufacturing businesses. America, at least the America I grew up in, was the land of the free and the home of the innovator. We used to celebrate entrepreneurs and reward those willing to take a risk. America, the "can do" America of my early years, allowed it's innovators to operate with relatively little restraint or restriction. If you wanted to start and operate a business, "have at it, we wish you success" was the motto of our great nation. If you had an idea for a "better mouse trap" build your plant, install your equipment, hire your people and good luck.
In the '60s we had a positive balance of trade and it was growing faster than anywhere else in the world. Japan, the second most industrialized country, produced goods that were considered inferior to those produced by our great American factories. China, South Korea, Mexico? Not even on the map! Today our balance of trade is negative by a long shot and the quality of our manufactured goods is inferior to that of many other countries. Much of what we consider manufacturing in the U.S. today is really the assembly of components manufactured in other countries. Manufacturing profits go to businesses outside America because we regulate manufacturing facilities into oblivion.
Today the environment for starting and operating a manufacturing plant is not good. Gone are the days of "Great, go to it, do the best you can." Replaced by, "NIMBY" -- Not In My Back Yard. The government has imposed itself as our costly overseer, placing environmental, zoning, and wage/benefit restrictions so burdensome in time and cost that businesses are left barely competitive if not impossible to begin.
Have a great idea? See a viable opportunity? Want to build a product or establish a manufacturing plant? Go see your local government officials. You will find the "go for it" attitude replaced with, Manufacturing??? Why do you want to consider such a dirty business? Why would you want to put your fellow citizens at risk? What would we do if someone were to get hurt? How could we possibly live with ourselves if, God forbid, some kind of particle escaped into the air or blew into a river? How could you live with yourself if your employees weren't all being treated equally and being supplied with incredibly attractive wages and benefits?
I would like to relate my recent experience trying to start a Carbon Fibre manufacturing company in a Northeastern U.S. State. After meeting for three weeks with the economic development offices of the State and City, it was determined that after I located and acquired a facility, at my cost and risk, even if it were properly zoned, it would have to be approved for a special use exception. Thereafter we were told to budget in excess of $300K for pre-approval EPA, environmental, and other studies. The studies would take about 6 months at minimum -- with no guarantee of a successful outcome. Even if we were approved, and in spite of the fact that at opening we would be hiring approximately 25 technically competent people in a high unemployment region, we would have to go to the Union hall and negotiate a trades contract before hiring the first employee. I would be forced to unionize and hire more expensive, "senior union members." I am not allowed to go to Craigslist and hire younger, entry level trainees. My cost of operation becomes higher before even opening my doors and I have no choice in this matter. Unbelievable!!!
Even if I am willing to take the time, spend the money, and successfully navigate the bureaucratic hurdles, what additional risks do I face? How about this: OSHA arbitrarily decides I'm not in compliance with one clause in their multi-thousand page regulatory bible. Or, an employee-union member decides he is not being treated fairly or that the benefits package is not equal to that of federal or state employees, and files a grievance How about the EPA deciding, retroactively, that in the event of a power outage there is a chance my factory might leak a "toxic" substance? I will be sued, shut down and possibly prosecuted criminally.
Now, consider my experience the last time I visited China. I was escorted by the governor of Tianjin State to one of his new cities and shown the process to open a manufacturing facility. I was led into a room with a series of desks. You start at the first desk where you present your plan. Thereafter you proceed from one to the next obtaining approvals or agree to modifications on the spot until at the last table where you are shown what lots and buildings are available that best suit your needs and the price of each. The total timeline for permits, from beginning to approval, takes about 3 hours.
At the end of the line you pay your fee, get your permit, and choose your construction manager if a new building is necessary. The city designates the building team to come the following day and begin construction. Generally you are guaranteed that you will be able to move your equipment in within 5 months.
There are no restrictions on importation of equipment, state officials help with marketing and sales inside the country and do not restrict exportation of the manufactured goods or profits. Now, this is China so the government and the state share 30% of your business, but considering the ease of entry, increased in-country sales and helpful attitude, this is a small price to pay, especially considering America's 35% plus corporate tax rates. Also, if the price of the lot or building seems high, and they like your project, they will negotiate the price and terms.
This is why our balance of trade is so out of whack. This is why many companies move out of the United States for foreign environs. This is why the United States is losing its position as the greatest manufacturing country in the world.
The greatest threat to our American future doesn't come from other nations, it comes from within. We have become our own worst enemy.



Oh yes the good old days when rivers actually started on fire, our nation's symbol the eagle was going extinct from DDT. Commercials cautioning blasting caps was on every night. Kids were eating paint chips with lead in them. Cancer was prevelent because of dumping toxic waste. Aquafurs were forever poluted by gas stations that no longer exist. Big city squal and decay.
Junk that is still scattered in our national parks from the 50's and 60's. The pushing of helicopters and planes fully loaded with fuels and oils off the edge of aircraft carriers into the oceans after Nam.
The killing of reefs, home to billions of food chain animals. Acid rain so bad you didn't dare look up. Smog.
We had become our nations worst enemy!
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

AdventureBegins's photo
Sat 02/04/12 07:37 PM



I wonder what sound fiscal policy others would have offered up to deal with a failing BANKING, Housing, and crumbling AUTO industry in america,,,,,

I suppose people actually believe letting them FAIL would be sound and reasonable,,,,all while complaining how large the unemployment rate is,,,,

interesting,,,

The time to think of sound fiscal policy was back a few presidents.

Politicians were all so busy passing things needed for their investments they forgot who they worked for.

and as far as fixing it now.

Mr. Obama is part of the problem.

Perhaps not as an individual...

Rather as a proponent of the side he represents.

If we had let the banks and bad investers fail the recovery would be done by now and prosperity well on its way.

One does not normally attach oneself to a falling rock...





on what precedent do you base the conclusion that letting banks fail would have sped up recovery?

Without the banks people would be changing money directly as they trade.

No middle man.

No atm fees.

Just my money in your pocket for your services. Your money in the next persons pocket for their's to you.

Both at the individual and corporate level.

With out the cost of paying the bank to 'administrate' the exchange.

msharmony's photo
Sun 02/05/12 12:10 AM




I wonder what sound fiscal policy others would have offered up to deal with a failing BANKING, Housing, and crumbling AUTO industry in america,,,,,

I suppose people actually believe letting them FAIL would be sound and reasonable,,,,all while complaining how large the unemployment rate is,,,,

interesting,,,

The time to think of sound fiscal policy was back a few presidents.

Politicians were all so busy passing things needed for their investments they forgot who they worked for.

and as far as fixing it now.

Mr. Obama is part of the problem.

Perhaps not as an individual...

Rather as a proponent of the side he represents.

If we had let the banks and bad investers fail the recovery would be done by now and prosperity well on its way.

One does not normally attach oneself to a falling rock...





on what precedent do you base the conclusion that letting banks fail would have sped up recovery?

Without the banks people would be changing money directly as they trade.

No middle man.

No atm fees.

Just my money in your pocket for your services. Your money in the next persons pocket for their's to you.

Both at the individual and corporate level.

With out the cost of paying the bank to 'administrate' the exchange.


I was asking how this would make recovery any faster.....

no photo
Sun 02/05/12 05:05 AM





I wonder what sound fiscal policy others would have offered up to deal with a failing BANKING, Housing, and crumbling AUTO industry in america,,,,,

I suppose people actually believe letting them FAIL would be sound and reasonable,,,,all while complaining how large the unemployment rate is,,,,

interesting,,,

The time to think of sound fiscal policy was back a few presidents.

Politicians were all so busy passing things needed for their investments they forgot who they worked for.

and as far as fixing it now.

Mr. Obama is part of the problem.

Perhaps not as an individual...

Rather as a proponent of the side he represents.

If we had let the banks and bad investers fail the recovery would be done by now and prosperity well on its way.

One does not normally attach oneself to a falling rock...





on what precedent do you base the conclusion that letting banks fail would have sped up recovery?

Without the banks people would be changing money directly as they trade.

No middle man.

No atm fees.

Just my money in your pocket for your services. Your money in the next persons pocket for their's to you.

Both at the individual and corporate level.

With out the cost of paying the bank to 'administrate' the exchange.


I was asking how this would make recovery any faster.....


He's saying money travels a straight line...No room for corruption...No hidden fees.....Means more for everyone not just the corporate select...

Morning Harmony...flowerforyou (((hug))).....It's hell disagreeing with a woman I like so much!laugh

msharmony's photo
Sun 02/05/12 10:35 AM






I wonder what sound fiscal policy others would have offered up to deal with a failing BANKING, Housing, and crumbling AUTO industry in america,,,,,

I suppose people actually believe letting them FAIL would be sound and reasonable,,,,all while complaining how large the unemployment rate is,,,,

interesting,,,

The time to think of sound fiscal policy was back a few presidents.

Politicians were all so busy passing things needed for their investments they forgot who they worked for.

and as far as fixing it now.

Mr. Obama is part of the problem.

Perhaps not as an individual...

Rather as a proponent of the side he represents.

If we had let the banks and bad investers fail the recovery would be done by now and prosperity well on its way.

One does not normally attach oneself to a falling rock...





on what precedent do you base the conclusion that letting banks fail would have sped up recovery?

Without the banks people would be changing money directly as they trade.

No middle man.

No atm fees.

Just my money in your pocket for your services. Your money in the next persons pocket for their's to you.

Both at the individual and corporate level.

With out the cost of paying the bank to 'administrate' the exchange.


I was asking how this would make recovery any faster.....


He's saying money travels a straight line...No room for corruption...No hidden fees.....Means more for everyone not just the corporate select...

Morning Harmony...flowerforyou (((hug))).....It's hell disagreeing with a woman I like so much!laugh



good morning beautifulflowerforyou


I understand the theory of money traveling in a straight line. I was more curious about what lead to the conclusion that this transition would happen FASTER than the current recovery,,,,,as it obviously would still involve plenty of americans losing their homes, dealing with bad credit,,veing unemployed etc,,,,

AdventureBegins's photo
Sun 02/05/12 09:04 PM





I wonder what sound fiscal policy others would have offered up to deal with a failing BANKING, Housing, and crumbling AUTO industry in america,,,,,

I suppose people actually believe letting them FAIL would be sound and reasonable,,,,all while complaining how large the unemployment rate is,,,,

interesting,,,

The time to think of sound fiscal policy was back a few presidents.

Politicians were all so busy passing things needed for their investments they forgot who they worked for.

and as far as fixing it now.

Mr. Obama is part of the problem.

Perhaps not as an individual...

Rather as a proponent of the side he represents.

If we had let the banks and bad investers fail the recovery would be done by now and prosperity well on its way.

One does not normally attach oneself to a falling rock...





on what precedent do you base the conclusion that letting banks fail would have sped up recovery?

Without the banks people would be changing money directly as they trade.

No middle man.

No atm fees.

Just my money in your pocket for your services. Your money in the next persons pocket for their's to you.

Both at the individual and corporate level.

With out the cost of paying the bank to 'administrate' the exchange.


I was asking how this would make recovery any faster.....

The stimulus allowed the banks to 'freeze' actual money flow and allow 'paper money' to flow.

If the banks had colapsed they would have formed smaller community oriented sub-banks. (nothing beats the quick action of a banker facing big losses).

Real money would have had to flow to allow such a 'fragmentation' to occur. (they would have had no choice, survival would have demanded it).

Prices would have come down to compensate for 'value' of money increasing as the bad paper exited the system (might have even increased it to its gold market worth).


InvictusV's photo
Mon 02/06/12 04:59 AM
After taking a day to regroup I can't help but wonder why the people that are into the class warfare scheme and push the 1% vs the so called 99% are defending taking taxpayer money bailing out the 1%ers..

I see all the left wing pundits saying that the 1%ers don't actually create jobs or employ people..

They just hoard their money offshore and do nothing for the economy.

When you are railing on and on about the wealth gap increasing, remember that these banks you are defending are one of the major reasons that has been happening..

TARP funds were given to these banks as capital injections in order for them to loan it out. They took the money and did everything with it, but loan it out..

They are making far more money today than they ever have.


“The Fed didn’t tell anyone which banks were in trouble so deep they required a combined $1.2 trillion on Dec. 5, 2008, their single neediest day. Bankers didn’t mention that they took tens of billions of dollars in emergency loans at the same time they were assuring investors their firms were healthy,” Bloomberg reported today. ”And no one calculated until now that banks reaped an estimated $13 billion of income by taking advantage of the Fed’s below-market rates.”

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/business/2011/11/fed-gave-banks-trillions-in-bailout-bloomberg-reports/

InvictusV's photo
Mon 02/06/12 05:03 AM
Here is another good one..


NEW YORK (CNNMoney) -- Mortgage finance giants Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac received the biggest federal bailout of the financial crisis. And nearly $100 million of those tax dollars went to lucrative pay packages for top executives, filings show.

The top five executives at Fannie Mae received $33.3 million in 2009 and 2010, while the top five at Freddie Mac received $28.1 million. And each company has set pay targets of as much as $17 million for its top managers for 2011.

That's a total of $95.4 million, which will essentially be coming from taxpayers, who have been keeping the mortgage finance giants alive with regular quarterly cash infusions since the Federal Home Finance Agency (FHFA) took control of the companies in September 2008.


http://money.cnn.com/2011/11/15/news/companies/fannie_freddie_executive_pay/index.htm/

So defend away..

no photo
Mon 02/06/12 05:50 AM







I wonder what sound fiscal policy others would have offered up to deal with a failing BANKING, Housing, and crumbling AUTO industry in america,,,,,

I suppose people actually believe letting them FAIL would be sound and reasonable,,,,all while complaining how large the unemployment rate is,,,,

interesting,,,

The time to think of sound fiscal policy was back a few presidents.

Politicians were all so busy passing things needed for their investments they forgot who they worked for.

and as far as fixing it now.

Mr. Obama is part of the problem.

Perhaps not as an individual...

Rather as a proponent of the side he represents.

If we had let the banks and bad investers fail the recovery would be done by now and prosperity well on its way.

One does not normally attach oneself to a falling rock...





on what precedent do you base the conclusion that letting banks fail would have sped up recovery?

Without the banks people would be changing money directly as they trade.

No middle man.

No atm fees.

Just my money in your pocket for your services. Your money in the next persons pocket for their's to you.

Both at the individual and corporate level.

With out the cost of paying the bank to 'administrate' the exchange.


I was asking how this would make recovery any faster.....


He's saying money travels a straight line...No room for corruption...No hidden fees.....Means more for everyone not just the corporate select...

Morning Harmony...flowerforyou (((hug))).....It's hell disagreeing with a woman I like so much!laugh



good morning beautifulflowerforyou


I understand the theory of money traveling in a straight line. I was more curious about what lead to the conclusion that this transition would happen FASTER than the current recovery,,,,,as it obviously would still involve plenty of americans losing their homes, dealing with bad credit,,veing unemployed etc,,,,


For me it's about misplacing the help money ...Helping the bad guy (lenders) and letting the victim (homeowners with jobs and families to support) fall...Just think it could have been better spent on saving underwater mortgages, preventing them from becoming upside down mortgages...and establishing new lending institutions in the process...Think it could have been done faster too....A bucket load of money was spent to save corrupt lenders...Wrong!!...

msharmony's photo
Mon 02/06/12 07:21 AM
Edited by msharmony on Mon 02/06/12 07:22 AM








I wonder what sound fiscal policy others would have offered up to deal with a failing BANKING, Housing, and crumbling AUTO industry in america,,,,,

I suppose people actually believe letting them FAIL would be sound and reasonable,,,,all while complaining how large the unemployment rate is,,,,

interesting,,,

The time to think of sound fiscal policy was back a few presidents.

Politicians were all so busy passing things needed for their investments they forgot who they worked for.

and as far as fixing it now.

Mr. Obama is part of the problem.

Perhaps not as an individual...

Rather as a proponent of the side he represents.

If we had let the banks and bad investers fail the recovery would be done by now and prosperity well on its way.

One does not normally attach oneself to a falling rock...





on what precedent do you base the conclusion that letting banks fail would have sped up recovery?

Without the banks people would be changing money directly as they trade.

No middle man.

No atm fees.

Just my money in your pocket for your services. Your money in the next persons pocket for their's to you.

Both at the individual and corporate level.

With out the cost of paying the bank to 'administrate' the exchange.


I was asking how this would make recovery any faster.....


He's saying money travels a straight line...No room for corruption...No hidden fees.....Means more for everyone not just the corporate select...

Morning Harmony...flowerforyou (((hug))).....It's hell disagreeing with a woman I like so much!laugh



good morning beautifulflowerforyou


I understand the theory of money traveling in a straight line. I was more curious about what lead to the conclusion that this transition would happen FASTER than the current recovery,,,,,as it obviously would still involve plenty of americans losing their homes, dealing with bad credit,,veing unemployed etc,,,,


For me it's about misplacing the help money ...Helping the bad guy (lenders) and letting the victim (homeowners with jobs and families to support) fall...Just think it could have been better spent on saving underwater mortgages, preventing them from becoming upside down mortgages...and establishing new lending institutions in the process...Think it could have been done faster too....A bucket load of money was spent to save corrupt lenders...Wrong!!...


there was a program in place to help the homeowners too, but they had to sign up for it,,,

and I have to wonder, for consistency sake, what jobs this one percent have been so successfully creating lately

some say the gov cant create jobs, but the wealthy sure havent been doing that well at it either

WHOEVER creates them, seems to have been having some problem, but I dont think its the one percent considering that their wealth is continuing to grow,,,


whoever creates them, has been able to slow job loss down tremendously and slowly see gains creeping back up


but more needs to be done than the usual wasted time fingerpointing and assuming what 'may have been'

no photo
Mon 02/06/12 07:33 AM









I wonder what sound fiscal policy others would have offered up to deal with a failing BANKING, Housing, and crumbling AUTO industry in america,,,,,

I suppose people actually believe letting them FAIL would be sound and reasonable,,,,all while complaining how large the unemployment rate is,,,,

interesting,,,

The time to think of sound fiscal policy was back a few presidents.

Politicians were all so busy passing things needed for their investments they forgot who they worked for.

and as far as fixing it now.

Mr. Obama is part of the problem.

Perhaps not as an individual...

Rather as a proponent of the side he represents.

If we had let the banks and bad investers fail the recovery would be done by now and prosperity well on its way.

One does not normally attach oneself to a falling rock...





on what precedent do you base the conclusion that letting banks fail would have sped up recovery?

Without the banks people would be changing money directly as they trade.

No middle man.

No atm fees.

Just my money in your pocket for your services. Your money in the next persons pocket for their's to you.

Both at the individual and corporate level.

With out the cost of paying the bank to 'administrate' the exchange.


I was asking how this would make recovery any faster.....


He's saying money travels a straight line...No room for corruption...No hidden fees.....Means more for everyone not just the corporate select...

Morning Harmony...flowerforyou (((hug))).....It's hell disagreeing with a woman I like so much!laugh



good morning beautifulflowerforyou


I understand the theory of money traveling in a straight line. I was more curious about what lead to the conclusion that this transition would happen FASTER than the current recovery,,,,,as it obviously would still involve plenty of americans losing their homes, dealing with bad credit,,veing unemployed etc,,,,


For me it's about misplacing the help money ...Helping the bad guy (lenders) and letting the victim (homeowners with jobs and families to support) fall...Just think it could have been better spent on saving underwater mortgages, preventing them from becoming upside down mortgages...and establishing new lending institutions in the process...Think it could have been done faster too....A bucket load of money was spent to save corrupt lenders...Wrong!!...


there was a program in place to help the homeowners too, but they had to sign up for it,,,

and I have to wonder, for consistency sake, what jobs this one percent have been so successfully creating lately

some say the gov cant create jobs, but the wealthy sure havent been doing that well at it either

WHOEVER creates them, seems to have been having some problem, but I dont think its the one percent considering that their wealth is continuing to grow,,,


whoever creates them, has been able to slow job loss down tremendously and slowly see gains creeping back up


but more needs to be done than the usual wasted time fingerpointing and assuming what 'may have been'


I know some who tried to get help on that program...It was convoluted, filled with mind boggling paperwork and requirements based on personal information beyond normal scope and future promises that homeowners had to prove they could keep...It was a program that came with too many conditions to really help...It came with a time line that was, in many instances, unachievable due to bureaucracy and red tape...Hastily thrown together to calm the raging waters....flowerforyou

msharmony's photo
Mon 02/06/12 07:36 AM










I wonder what sound fiscal policy others would have offered up to deal with a failing BANKING, Housing, and crumbling AUTO industry in america,,,,,

I suppose people actually believe letting them FAIL would be sound and reasonable,,,,all while complaining how large the unemployment rate is,,,,

interesting,,,

The time to think of sound fiscal policy was back a few presidents.

Politicians were all so busy passing things needed for their investments they forgot who they worked for.

and as far as fixing it now.

Mr. Obama is part of the problem.

Perhaps not as an individual...

Rather as a proponent of the side he represents.

If we had let the banks and bad investers fail the recovery would be done by now and prosperity well on its way.

One does not normally attach oneself to a falling rock...





on what precedent do you base the conclusion that letting banks fail would have sped up recovery?

Without the banks people would be changing money directly as they trade.

No middle man.

No atm fees.

Just my money in your pocket for your services. Your money in the next persons pocket for their's to you.

Both at the individual and corporate level.

With out the cost of paying the bank to 'administrate' the exchange.


I was asking how this would make recovery any faster.....


He's saying money travels a straight line...No room for corruption...No hidden fees.....Means more for everyone not just the corporate select...

Morning Harmony...flowerforyou (((hug))).....It's hell disagreeing with a woman I like so much!laugh



good morning beautifulflowerforyou


I understand the theory of money traveling in a straight line. I was more curious about what lead to the conclusion that this transition would happen FASTER than the current recovery,,,,,as it obviously would still involve plenty of americans losing their homes, dealing with bad credit,,veing unemployed etc,,,,


For me it's about misplacing the help money ...Helping the bad guy (lenders) and letting the victim (homeowners with jobs and families to support) fall...Just think it could have been better spent on saving underwater mortgages, preventing them from becoming upside down mortgages...and establishing new lending institutions in the process...Think it could have been done faster too....A bucket load of money was spent to save corrupt lenders...Wrong!!...


there was a program in place to help the homeowners too, but they had to sign up for it,,,

and I have to wonder, for consistency sake, what jobs this one percent have been so successfully creating lately

some say the gov cant create jobs, but the wealthy sure havent been doing that well at it either

WHOEVER creates them, seems to have been having some problem, but I dont think its the one percent considering that their wealth is continuing to grow,,,


whoever creates them, has been able to slow job loss down tremendously and slowly see gains creeping back up


but more needs to be done than the usual wasted time fingerpointing and assuming what 'may have been'


I know some who tried to get help on that program...It was convoluted, filled with mind boggling paperwork and requirements based on personal information beyond normal scope and future promises that homeowners had to prove they could keep...It was a program that came with too many conditions to really help...It came with a time line that was, in many instances, unachievable due to bureaucracy and red tape...Hastily thrown together to calm the raging waters....flowerforyou



haste makes waste, which is why I dont think just deciding to do NOTHING and let the financial industry fall would have sped anything up in the direction of progress or recovery

no photo
Mon 02/06/12 08:36 AM
Edited by Leigh2154 on Mon 02/06/12 09:06 AM

I know some who tried to get help on that program...It was convoluted, filled with mind boggling paperwork and requirements based on personal information beyond normal scope and future promises that homeowners had to prove they could keep...It was a program that came with too many conditions to really help...It came with a time line that was, in many instances, unachievable due to bureaucracy and red tape...Hastily thrown together to calm the raging waters....flowerforyou



haste makes waste, which is why I dont think just deciding to do NOTHING and let the financial industry fall would have sped anything up in the direction of progress or recovery




I totally hear what you're saying Harmony...Obama admin moved too fast too...They had access to the best of the best financial consultants and should have moved slowly and more carefully...Printing more money with a 9 plus deficit already staring us in the face was irresponsible IMO....another year would not have mattered...and perhaps a better, more effective plan...same with healthcare, moved too fast...If it did not have so many problems, it might stand a better chance...Senate, 2,074 pgs...House, 1,990 pgs....You can read this dreadful piece here: http://thomas.loc.gov/

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