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| Topic: Creatin' everything good... | |
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Any thing wrong if God had created satan to being a nice guy without rebelin' against him at the outset, Adam and Eve not fallin' in the garden of Eden...folks livin' happliy in paradise?
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Any thing wrong if God had created satan to being a nice guy without rebelin' against him at the outset, Adam and Eve not fallin' in the garden of Eden...folks livin' happliy in paradise? It is not Satan's fault. One can not blame another for one's own actions. It was man's own action(s) that got ourselves taken out of the garden. Satan did tempt them, but nevertheless it was our choice to eat of the fruit... our = human race. |
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Any thing wrong if God had created satan to being a nice guy without rebelin' against him at the outset, Adam and Eve not fallin' in the garden of Eden...folks livin' happliy in paradise? It is not Satan's fault. One can not blame another for one's own actions. It was man's own action(s) that got ourselves taken out of the garden. Satan did tempt them, but nevertheless it was our choice to eat of the fruit... our = human race. No,don't give me that Free-will-Jazz,that doesn't hold water! Actually it is jut an Obfuscation,so the real Question doesn't have to be answered! HOW did the Perfect get corrupted in the First Place! And don't blame Man either,remember,he had no Concept of Good and Evil until he tasted that Fruit! ************* What is the nature of the guilt that your teachers call [man’s] Original Sin? What are the evils man acquired when he fell from a state they consider perfection? Their myth declares that he ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge—he acquired a mind and became a rational being. It was the knowledge of good and evil—he became a moral being. He was sentenced to earn his bread by his labor—he became a productive being. He was sentenced to experience desire—he acquired the capacity of sexual enjoyment. The evils for which they damn him are reason, morality, creativeness, joy—all the cardinal values of his existence. It is not his vices that their myth of man’s fall is designed to explain and condemn, it is not his errors that they hold as his guilt, but the essence of his nature as man. Whatever he was—that robot in the Garden of Eden, who existed without mind, without values, without labor, without love—he was not man. Man’s fall, according to your teachers, was that he gained the virtues required to live. These virtues, by their standard, are his Sin. His evil, they charge, is that he’s man. His guilt, they charge, is that he lives. They call it a morality of mercy and a doctrine of love for man. No, they say, they do not preach that man is evil, the evil is only that alien object: his body. No, they say, they do not wish to kill him, they only wish to make him lose his body. They seek to help him, they say, against his pain—and they point at the torture rack to which they’ve tied him, the rack with two wheels that pull him in opposite directions, the rack of the doctrine that splits his soul and body. ******************** Ayn Rand "Atlas Shrugged" |
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Any thing wrong if God had created satan to being a nice guy without rebelin' against him at the outset, Adam and Eve not fallin' in the garden of Eden...folks livin' happliy in paradise? It is not Satan's fault. One can not blame another for one's own actions. It was man's own action(s) that got ourselves taken out of the garden. Satan did tempt them, but nevertheless it was our choice to eat of the fruit... our = human race. No,don't give me that Free-will-Jazz,that doesn't hold water! Actually it is jut an Obfuscation,so the real Question doesn't have to be answered! HOW did the Perfect get corrupted in the First Place! And don't blame Man either,remember,he had no Concept of Good and Evil until he tasted that Fruit! ************* What is the nature of the guilt that your teachers call [man’s] Original Sin? What are the evils man acquired when he fell from a state they consider perfection? Their myth declares that he ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge—he acquired a mind and became a rational being. It was the knowledge of good and evil—he became a moral being. He was sentenced to earn his bread by his labor—he became a productive being. He was sentenced to experience desire—he acquired the capacity of sexual enjoyment. The evils for which they damn him are reason, morality, creativeness, joy—all the cardinal values of his existence. It is not his vices that their myth of man’s fall is designed to explain and condemn, it is not his errors that they hold as his guilt, but the essence of his nature as man. Whatever he was—that robot in the Garden of Eden, who existed without mind, without values, without labor, without love—he was not man. Man’s fall, according to your teachers, was that he gained the virtues required to live. These virtues, by their standard, are his Sin. His evil, they charge, is that he’s man. His guilt, they charge, is that he lives. They call it a morality of mercy and a doctrine of love for man. No, they say, they do not preach that man is evil, the evil is only that alien object: his body. No, they say, they do not wish to kill him, they only wish to make him lose his body. They seek to help him, they say, against his pain—and they point at the torture rack to which they’ve tied him, the rack with two wheels that pull him in opposite directions, the rack of the doctrine that splits his soul and body. ******************** Ayn Rand "Atlas Shrugged" Incorrect. What God created was and still is perfect. God does not create our actions or thoughts. We do that, we are the one's accountable for such things, not God. And man acquired no evil, evil is a descriptive word, it can not be acquired. And no, he didn't acquire a mind after eating of the fruit. He learned the difference between good and evil or right and wrong. A little child may steal, hit others, ect. But that doesn't mean we're going to put them in jail, but why not? They made the choice(s). It is because they do not know the concept of right and wrong. They are doing it out of innocence. And we do not really "punish" them till they have sorta grabbed the concept of obedience/disobedience. And thus exactly even what God has done. God has smacked our hands, now it is our turn to learn from it. that robot in the Garden of Eden, who existed without mind, without values, without labor, without love—he was not man. And exactly how do you know or what evidence do you have that Adam/Eve were without morals or without love? And yes, it was without labor. But that wouldn't have been a "value" in the equation, because there was absolutely no need to work in the Garden. Everything was supplied for us right there, food, water, shelter, ect. And don't blame Man either,remember,he had no Concept of Good and Evil until he tasted that Fruit! That is irrelevant. Man wasn't punished for doing "evil" in that exact context. Man was punished for disobeying God. |
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Any thing wrong if God had created satan to being a nice guy without rebelin' against him at the outset, Adam and Eve not fallin' in the garden of Eden...folks livin' happliy in paradise? It is not Satan's fault. One can not blame another for one's own actions. It was man's own action(s) that got ourselves taken out of the garden. Satan did tempt them, but nevertheless it was our choice to eat of the fruit... our = human race. No,don't give me that Free-will-Jazz,that doesn't hold water! Actually it is jut an Obfuscation,so the real Question doesn't have to be answered! HOW did the Perfect get corrupted in the First Place! And don't blame Man either,remember,he had no Concept of Good and Evil until he tasted that Fruit! ************* What is the nature of the guilt that your teachers call [man’s] Original Sin? What are the evils man acquired when he fell from a state they consider perfection? Their myth declares that he ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge—he acquired a mind and became a rational being. It was the knowledge of good and evil—he became a moral being. He was sentenced to earn his bread by his labor—he became a productive being. He was sentenced to experience desire—he acquired the capacity of sexual enjoyment. The evils for which they damn him are reason, morality, creativeness, joy—all the cardinal values of his existence. It is not his vices that their myth of man’s fall is designed to explain and condemn, it is not his errors that they hold as his guilt, but the essence of his nature as man. Whatever he was—that robot in the Garden of Eden, who existed without mind, without values, without labor, without love—he was not man. Man’s fall, according to your teachers, was that he gained the virtues required to live. These virtues, by their standard, are his Sin. His evil, they charge, is that he’s man. His guilt, they charge, is that he lives. They call it a morality of mercy and a doctrine of love for man. No, they say, they do not preach that man is evil, the evil is only that alien object: his body. No, they say, they do not wish to kill him, they only wish to make him lose his body. They seek to help him, they say, against his pain—and they point at the torture rack to which they’ve tied him, the rack with two wheels that pull him in opposite directions, the rack of the doctrine that splits his soul and body. ******************** Ayn Rand "Atlas Shrugged"  "how did the Perfect get corrupted in the first Place? No,don't give me that Free-will-Jazz,that doesn't hold water! Actually it is jut an Obfuscation,so the real Question doesn't have to be answered! HOW did the Perfect get corrupted in the First Place! And don't blame Man either,remember,he had no Concept of Good and Evil until he tasted that Fruit!"   |
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Any thing wrong if God had created satan to being a nice guy without rebelin' against him at the outset, Adam and Eve not fallin' in the garden of Eden...folks livin' happliy in paradise? It is not Satan's fault. One can not blame another for one's own actions. It was man's own action(s) that got ourselves taken out of the garden. Satan did tempt them, but nevertheless it was our choice to eat of the fruit... our = human race. No,don't give me that Free-will-Jazz,that doesn't hold water! Actually it is jut an Obfuscation,so the real Question doesn't have to be answered! HOW did the Perfect get corrupted in the First Place! And don't blame Man either,remember,he had no Concept of Good and Evil until he tasted that Fruit! ************* What is the nature of the guilt that your teachers call [man’s] Original Sin? What are the evils man acquired when he fell from a state they consider perfection? Their myth declares that he ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge—he acquired a mind and became a rational being. It was the knowledge of good and evil—he became a moral being. He was sentenced to earn his bread by his labor—he became a productive being. He was sentenced to experience desire—he acquired the capacity of sexual enjoyment. The evils for which they damn him are reason, morality, creativeness, joy—all the cardinal values of his existence. It is not his vices that their myth of man’s fall is designed to explain and condemn, it is not his errors that they hold as his guilt, but the essence of his nature as man. Whatever he was—that robot in the Garden of Eden, who existed without mind, without values, without labor, without love—he was not man. Man’s fall, according to your teachers, was that he gained the virtues required to live. These virtues, by their standard, are his Sin. His evil, they charge, is that he’s man. His guilt, they charge, is that he lives. They call it a morality of mercy and a doctrine of love for man. No, they say, they do not preach that man is evil, the evil is only that alien object: his body. No, they say, they do not wish to kill him, they only wish to make him lose his body. They seek to help him, they say, against his pain—and they point at the torture rack to which they’ve tied him, the rack with two wheels that pull him in opposite directions, the rack of the doctrine that splits his soul and body. ******************** Ayn Rand "Atlas Shrugged" "how did the Perfect get corrupted in the first Place? No,don't give me that Free-will-Jazz,that doesn't hold water! Actually it is jut an Obfuscation,so the real Question doesn't have to be answered! HOW did the Perfect get corrupted in the First Place! And don't blame Man either,remember,he had no Concept of Good and Evil until he tasted that Fruit!" Because God created us, not our choices. People will choose to do anything they wish to do. Even a child brought up very nicely could potentially grow up to be a serial killer. So, no our getting kicked out of Eden or anything else has absolutely nothing specifically to do with God in the causing of it, it was our own fault for our disobedience. |
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Any thing wrong if God had created satan to being a nice guy without rebelin' against him at the outset, Adam and Eve not fallin' in the garden of Eden...folks livin' happliy in paradise? It is not Satan's fault. One can not blame another for one's own actions. It was man's own action(s) that got ourselves taken out of the garden. Satan did tempt them, but nevertheless it was our choice to eat of the fruit... our = human race. No,don't give me that Free-will-Jazz,that doesn't hold water! Actually it is jut an Obfuscation,so the real Question doesn't have to be answered! HOW did the Perfect get corrupted in the First Place! And don't blame Man either,remember,he had no Concept of Good and Evil until he tasted that Fruit! ************* What is the nature of the guilt that your teachers call [man’s] Original Sin? What are the evils man acquired when he fell from a state they consider perfection? Their myth declares that he ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge—he acquired a mind and became a rational being. It was the knowledge of good and evil—he became a moral being. He was sentenced to earn his bread by his labor—he became a productive being. He was sentenced to experience desire—he acquired the capacity of sexual enjoyment. The evils for which they damn him are reason, morality, creativeness, joy—all the cardinal values of his existence. It is not his vices that their myth of man’s fall is designed to explain and condemn, it is not his errors that they hold as his guilt, but the essence of his nature as man. Whatever he was—that robot in the Garden of Eden, who existed without mind, without values, without labor, without love—he was not man. Man’s fall, according to your teachers, was that he gained the virtues required to live. These virtues, by their standard, are his Sin. His evil, they charge, is that he’s man. His guilt, they charge, is that he lives. They call it a morality of mercy and a doctrine of love for man. No, they say, they do not preach that man is evil, the evil is only that alien object: his body. No, they say, they do not wish to kill him, they only wish to make him lose his body. They seek to help him, they say, against his pain—and they point at the torture rack to which they’ve tied him, the rack with two wheels that pull him in opposite directions, the rack of the doctrine that splits his soul and body. ******************** Ayn Rand "Atlas Shrugged" "how did the Perfect get corrupted in the first Place? No,don't give me that Free-will-Jazz,that doesn't hold water! Actually it is jut an Obfuscation,so the real Question doesn't have to be answered! HOW did the Perfect get corrupted in the First Place! And don't blame Man either,remember,he had no Concept of Good and Evil until he tasted that Fruit!" Because God created us, not our choices. People will choose to do anything they wish to do. Even a child brought up very nicely could potentially grow up to be a serial killer. So, no our getting kicked out of Eden or anything else has absolutely nothing specifically to do with God in the causing of it, it was our own fault for our disobedience. Sometimes I close my eyes and try to get a mental picture of the how the world would look 6,000 plus years later if Adam and Eve had not been evicted...I always come up with the same blank canvas.... 
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Edited by
Conrad_73
on
Thu 04/04/13 06:26 AM
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Any thing wrong if God had created satan to being a nice guy without rebelin' against him at the outset, Adam and Eve not fallin' in the garden of Eden...folks livin' happliy in paradise? It is not Satan's fault. One can not blame another for one's own actions. It was man's own action(s) that got ourselves taken out of the garden. Satan did tempt them, but nevertheless it was our choice to eat of the fruit... our = human race. No,don't give me that Free-will-Jazz,that doesn't hold water! Actually it is jut an Obfuscation,so the real Question doesn't have to be answered! HOW did the Perfect get corrupted in the First Place! And don't blame Man either,remember,he had no Concept of Good and Evil until he tasted that Fruit! ************* What is the nature of the guilt that your teachers call [man’s] Original Sin? What are the evils man acquired when he fell from a state they consider perfection? Their myth declares that he ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge—he acquired a mind and became a rational being. It was the knowledge of good and evil—he became a moral being. He was sentenced to earn his bread by his labor—he became a productive being. He was sentenced to experience desire—he acquired the capacity of sexual enjoyment. The evils for which they damn him are reason, morality, creativeness, joy—all the cardinal values of his existence. It is not his vices that their myth of man’s fall is designed to explain and condemn, it is not his errors that they hold as his guilt, but the essence of his nature as man. Whatever he was—that robot in the Garden of Eden, who existed without mind, without values, without labor, without love—he was not man. Man’s fall, according to your teachers, was that he gained the virtues required to live. These virtues, by their standard, are his Sin. His evil, they charge, is that he’s man. His guilt, they charge, is that he lives. They call it a morality of mercy and a doctrine of love for man. No, they say, they do not preach that man is evil, the evil is only that alien object: his body. No, they say, they do not wish to kill him, they only wish to make him lose his body. They seek to help him, they say, against his pain—and they point at the torture rack to which they’ve tied him, the rack with two wheels that pull him in opposite directions, the rack of the doctrine that splits his soul and body. ******************** Ayn Rand "Atlas Shrugged" "how did the Perfect get corrupted in the first Place? No,don't give me that Free-will-Jazz,that doesn't hold water! Actually it is jut an Obfuscation,so the real Question doesn't have to be answered! HOW did the Perfect get corrupted in the First Place! And don't blame Man either,remember,he had no Concept of Good and Evil until he tasted that Fruit!" Because God created us, not our choices. People will choose to do anything they wish to do. Even a child brought up very nicely could potentially grow up to be a serial killer. So, no our getting kicked out of Eden or anything else has absolutely nothing specifically to do with God in the causing of it, it was our own fault for our disobedience. You can NOT disobey! You are using exactly that very Obfuscation I asked you not to use,but expected you to,because you have no,and there is no answer! A Perfect being can not at in a disobedient or Imperfect manner! It's IMPOSSIBLE,regardless of the mental Acrobatics you employ! And then you go on and blame Man,who was created perfect,yet on his own Volition,even though he had no Knowledge of Good or Evil went and chose to become Evil! And all that before tasting that Fruit of the Knowledge Of Good and Evil! Before tasting that Fruit,mind you! |
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Edited by
CowboyGH
on
Thu 04/04/13 11:20 AM
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Any thing wrong if God had created satan to being a nice guy without rebelin' against him at the outset, Adam and Eve not fallin' in the garden of Eden...folks livin' happliy in paradise? It is not Satan's fault. One can not blame another for one's own actions. It was man's own action(s) that got ourselves taken out of the garden. Satan did tempt them, but nevertheless it was our choice to eat of the fruit... our = human race. No,don't give me that Free-will-Jazz,that doesn't hold water! Actually it is jut an Obfuscation,so the real Question doesn't have to be answered! HOW did the Perfect get corrupted in the First Place! And don't blame Man either,remember,he had no Concept of Good and Evil until he tasted that Fruit! ************* What is the nature of the guilt that your teachers call [man’s] Original Sin? What are the evils man acquired when he fell from a state they consider perfection? Their myth declares that he ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge—he acquired a mind and became a rational being. It was the knowledge of good and evil—he became a moral being. He was sentenced to earn his bread by his labor—he became a productive being. He was sentenced to experience desire—he acquired the capacity of sexual enjoyment. The evils for which they damn him are reason, morality, creativeness, joy—all the cardinal values of his existence. It is not his vices that their myth of man’s fall is designed to explain and condemn, it is not his errors that they hold as his guilt, but the essence of his nature as man. Whatever he was—that robot in the Garden of Eden, who existed without mind, without values, without labor, without love—he was not man. Man’s fall, according to your teachers, was that he gained the virtues required to live. These virtues, by their standard, are his Sin. His evil, they charge, is that he’s man. His guilt, they charge, is that he lives. They call it a morality of mercy and a doctrine of love for man. No, they say, they do not preach that man is evil, the evil is only that alien object: his body. No, they say, they do not wish to kill him, they only wish to make him lose his body. They seek to help him, they say, against his pain—and they point at the torture rack to which they’ve tied him, the rack with two wheels that pull him in opposite directions, the rack of the doctrine that splits his soul and body. ******************** Ayn Rand "Atlas Shrugged" "how did the Perfect get corrupted in the first Place? No,don't give me that Free-will-Jazz,that doesn't hold water! Actually it is jut an Obfuscation,so the real Question doesn't have to be answered! HOW did the Perfect get corrupted in the First Place! And don't blame Man either,remember,he had no Concept of Good and Evil until he tasted that Fruit!" Because God created us, not our choices. People will choose to do anything they wish to do. Even a child brought up very nicely could potentially grow up to be a serial killer. So, no our getting kicked out of Eden or anything else has absolutely nothing specifically to do with God in the causing of it, it was our own fault for our disobedience. You can NOT disobey! You are using exactly that very Obfuscation I asked you not to use,but expected you to,because you have no,and there is no answer! A Perfect being can not at in a disobedient or Imperfect manner! It's IMPOSSIBLE,regardless of the mental Acrobatics you employ! And then you go on and blame Man,who was created perfect,yet on his own Volition,even though he had no Knowledge of Good or Evil went and chose to become Evil! And all that before tasting that Fruit of the Knowledge Of Good and Evil! Before tasting that Fruit,mind you! Again, things you say have nothing to do with one another. How we act or behave has absolutely NOTHING to do with our physical creation. The ONLY way for us to have been automatically perfect in our choices, behaviors, thoughts, ect would have been made like robots with no real thought. But we have thoughts in which we control influenced by peers, environment, or any number of possible influences. If you are perfect,you can not chose the Imperfect! You can NOT disobey! Again, comparing apples and oranges with one another. We are made perfect, our BODIES and soul are perfect in how they function. That again after again has NOTHING to do with our choices or decisions. |
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Edited by
Kleisto
on
Fri 04/12/13 03:36 AM
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Any thing wrong if God had created satan to being a nice guy without rebelin' against him at the outset, Adam and Eve not fallin' in the garden of Eden...folks livin' happliy in paradise? It is not Satan's fault. One can not blame another for one's own actions. It was man's own action(s) that got ourselves taken out of the garden. Satan did tempt them, but nevertheless it was our choice to eat of the fruit... our = human race. No,don't give me that Free-will-Jazz,that doesn't hold water! Actually it is jut an Obfuscation,so the real Question doesn't have to be answered! HOW did the Perfect get corrupted in the First Place! And don't blame Man either,remember,he had no Concept of Good and Evil until he tasted that Fruit! ************* What is the nature of the guilt that your teachers call [man’s] Original Sin? What are the evils man acquired when he fell from a state they consider perfection? Their myth declares that he ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge—he acquired a mind and became a rational being. It was the knowledge of good and evil—he became a moral being. He was sentenced to earn his bread by his labor—he became a productive being. He was sentenced to experience desire—he acquired the capacity of sexual enjoyment. The evils for which they damn him are reason, morality, creativeness, joy—all the cardinal values of his existence. It is not his vices that their myth of man’s fall is designed to explain and condemn, it is not his errors that they hold as his guilt, but the essence of his nature as man. Whatever he was—that robot in the Garden of Eden, who existed without mind, without values, without labor, without love—he was not man. Man’s fall, according to your teachers, was that he gained the virtues required to live. These virtues, by their standard, are his Sin. His evil, they charge, is that he’s man. His guilt, they charge, is that he lives. They call it a morality of mercy and a doctrine of love for man. No, they say, they do not preach that man is evil, the evil is only that alien object: his body. No, they say, they do not wish to kill him, they only wish to make him lose his body. They seek to help him, they say, against his pain—and they point at the torture rack to which they’ve tied him, the rack with two wheels that pull him in opposite directions, the rack of the doctrine that splits his soul and body. ******************** Ayn Rand "Atlas Shrugged" "how did the Perfect get corrupted in the first Place? No,don't give me that Free-will-Jazz,that doesn't hold water! Actually it is jut an Obfuscation,so the real Question doesn't have to be answered! HOW did the Perfect get corrupted in the First Place! And don't blame Man either,remember,he had no Concept of Good and Evil until he tasted that Fruit!" Because God created us, not our choices. People will choose to do anything they wish to do. Even a child brought up very nicely could potentially grow up to be a serial killer. So, no our getting kicked out of Eden or anything else has absolutely nothing specifically to do with God in the causing of it, it was our own fault for our disobedience. You can NOT disobey! You are using exactly that very Obfuscation I asked you not to use,but expected you to,because you have no,and there is no answer! A Perfect being can not at in a disobedient or Imperfect manner! It's IMPOSSIBLE,regardless of the mental Acrobatics you employ! And then you go on and blame Man,who was created perfect,yet on his own Volition,even though he had no Knowledge of Good or Evil went and chose to become Evil! And all that before tasting that Fruit of the Knowledge Of Good and Evil! Before tasting that Fruit,mind you! Again, things you say have nothing to do with one another. How we act or behave has absolutely NOTHING to do with our physical creation. The ONLY way for us to have been automatically perfect in our choices, behaviors, thoughts, ect would have been made like robots with no real thought. But we have thoughts in which we control influenced by peers, environment, or any number of possible influences. If you are perfect,you can not chose the Imperfect! You can NOT disobey! Again, comparing apples and oranges with one another. We are made perfect, our BODIES and soul are perfect in how they function. That again after again has NOTHING to do with our choices or decisions. You're not getting it Cowboy! If we are MADE perfect, it's impossible to be anything but how we were made. How could a perfect being create imperfect people, UNLESS it wanted us to have flaws to begin with? And as an aside if our bodies and souls are made perfect how could that NOT effect our decisions.....would they not be in accordance with our souls? That makes no sense whatsoever....if we are capable of making a bad choice it means our soul cannot be perfect then under your definition, because choices stem what's in our souls to begin with. In any case you cannot have it both ways, either we were made perfectly for our purpose as we are, or we were made flawed. If we were made flawed, than God cannot be perfect because he made a mistake, something perfection does not do by definition. It's incapable of screwing up. Hell your God in the Bible is said to have regretted making man to the point he wanted to kill them off entirely and pretty much did in the great flood. That right there by itself indicates God screwed up, which AGAIN a perfect being could not do. It is one of the biggest flaws of the Biblical God, there's only two choices either God made us perfect and by extension everything is exactly as it was supposed to be "fall" and all, or God messed up, which would make it imperfect. Pick a side it cannot be both. I mean you're seriously gonna sit there and tell me God is so perfect and yet is incapable of creating a people who will do as it wants it to do? Incapable of having the foresight to know if he created them a certain way they'd do something it didn't want them to do (which then means it's not all knowing either, and if it DID know this and created us as such anyway, this God is even worse than imperfect, it's downright evil)? No, that doesn't work no matter how you try and spin it. God is either perfect or it's not, there's no inbetween. |
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Any thing wrong if God had created satan to being a nice guy without rebelin' against him at the outset, Adam and Eve not fallin' in the garden of Eden...folks livin' happliy in paradise? It is not Satan's fault. One can not blame another for one's own actions. It was man's own action(s) that got ourselves taken out of the garden. Satan did tempt them, but nevertheless it was our choice to eat of the fruit... our = human race. No,don't give me that Free-will-Jazz,that doesn't hold water! Actually it is jut an Obfuscation,so the real Question doesn't have to be answered! HOW did the Perfect get corrupted in the First Place! And don't blame Man either,remember,he had no Concept of Good and Evil until he tasted that Fruit! ************* What is the nature of the guilt that your teachers call [man’s] Original Sin? What are the evils man acquired when he fell from a state they consider perfection? Their myth declares that he ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge—he acquired a mind and became a rational being. It was the knowledge of good and evil—he became a moral being. He was sentenced to earn his bread by his labor—he became a productive being. He was sentenced to experience desire—he acquired the capacity of sexual enjoyment. The evils for which they damn him are reason, morality, creativeness, joy—all the cardinal values of his existence. It is not his vices that their myth of man’s fall is designed to explain and condemn, it is not his errors that they hold as his guilt, but the essence of his nature as man. Whatever he was—that robot in the Garden of Eden, who existed without mind, without values, without labor, without love—he was not man. Man’s fall, according to your teachers, was that he gained the virtues required to live. These virtues, by their standard, are his Sin. His evil, they charge, is that he’s man. His guilt, they charge, is that he lives. They call it a morality of mercy and a doctrine of love for man. No, they say, they do not preach that man is evil, the evil is only that alien object: his body. No, they say, they do not wish to kill him, they only wish to make him lose his body. They seek to help him, they say, against his pain—and they point at the torture rack to which they’ve tied him, the rack with two wheels that pull him in opposite directions, the rack of the doctrine that splits his soul and body. ******************** Ayn Rand "Atlas Shrugged" "how did the Perfect get corrupted in the first Place? No,don't give me that Free-will-Jazz,that doesn't hold water! Actually it is jut an Obfuscation,so the real Question doesn't have to be answered! HOW did the Perfect get corrupted in the First Place! And don't blame Man either,remember,he had no Concept of Good and Evil until he tasted that Fruit!" Because God created us, not our choices. People will choose to do anything they wish to do. Even a child brought up very nicely could potentially grow up to be a serial killer. So, no our getting kicked out of Eden or anything else has absolutely nothing specifically to do with God in the causing of it, it was our own fault for our disobedience. You can NOT disobey! You are using exactly that very Obfuscation I asked you not to use,but expected you to,because you have no,and there is no answer! A Perfect being can not at in a disobedient or Imperfect manner! It's IMPOSSIBLE,regardless of the mental Acrobatics you employ! And then you go on and blame Man,who was created perfect,yet on his own Volition,even though he had no Knowledge of Good or Evil went and chose to become Evil! And all that before tasting that Fruit of the Knowledge Of Good and Evil! Before tasting that Fruit,mind you! Again, things you say have nothing to do with one another. How we act or behave has absolutely NOTHING to do with our physical creation. The ONLY way for us to have been automatically perfect in our choices, behaviors, thoughts, ect would have been made like robots with no real thought. But we have thoughts in which we control influenced by peers, environment, or any number of possible influences. If you are perfect,you can not chose the Imperfect! You can NOT disobey! Again, comparing apples and oranges with one another. We are made perfect, our BODIES and soul are perfect in how they function. That again after again has NOTHING to do with our choices or decisions. You're not getting it Cowboy! If we are MADE perfect, it's impossible to be anything but how we were made. How could a perfect being create imperfect people, UNLESS it wanted us to have flaws to begin with? And as an aside if our bodies and souls are made perfect how could that NOT effect our decisions.....would they not be in accordance with our souls? That makes no sense whatsoever....if we are capable of making a bad choice it means our soul cannot be perfect then under your definition, because choices stem what's in our souls to begin with. In any case you cannot have it both ways, either we were made perfectly for our purpose as we are, or we were made flawed. If we were made flawed, than God cannot be perfect because he made a mistake, something perfection does not do by definition. It's incapable of screwing up. Hell your God in the Bible is said to have regretted making man to the point he wanted to kill them off entirely and pretty much did in the great flood. That right there by itself indicates God screwed up, which AGAIN a perfect being could not do. It is one of the biggest flaws of the Biblical God, there's only two choices either God made us perfect and by extension everything is exactly as it was supposed to be "fall" and all, or God messed up, which would make it imperfect. Pick a side it cannot be both. I mean you're seriously gonna sit there and tell me God is so perfect and yet is incapable of creating a people who will do as it wants it to do? Incapable of having the foresight to know if he created them a certain way they'd do something it didn't want them to do (which then means it's not all knowing either, and if it DID know this and created us as such anyway, this God is even worse than imperfect, it's downright evil)? No, that doesn't work no matter how you try and spin it. God is either perfect or it's not, there's no inbetween. No, you're not getting it. How we are made has absolutely nothing to do with if we sin or not. We are all made the exact same way, yet we are all totally and completely different from one another in the way we think, act, behave, ect. If how we were made had anything to do with how we behaved in any way at all, we would all behave the exact same. |
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Any thing wrong if God had created satan to being a nice guy without rebelin' against him at the outset, Adam and Eve not fallin' in the garden of Eden...folks livin' happliy in paradise? It is not Satan's fault. One can not blame another for one's own actions. It was man's own action(s) that got ourselves taken out of the garden. Satan did tempt them, but nevertheless it was our choice to eat of the fruit... our = human race. No,don't give me that Free-will-Jazz,that doesn't hold water! Actually it is jut an Obfuscation,so the real Question doesn't have to be answered! HOW did the Perfect get corrupted in the First Place! And don't blame Man either,remember,he had no Concept of Good and Evil until he tasted that Fruit! ************* What is the nature of the guilt that your teachers call [man’s] Original Sin? What are the evils man acquired when he fell from a state they consider perfection? Their myth declares that he ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge—he acquired a mind and became a rational being. It was the knowledge of good and evil—he became a moral being. He was sentenced to earn his bread by his labor—he became a productive being. He was sentenced to experience desire—he acquired the capacity of sexual enjoyment. The evils for which they damn him are reason, morality, creativeness, joy—all the cardinal values of his existence. It is not his vices that their myth of man’s fall is designed to explain and condemn, it is not his errors that they hold as his guilt, but the essence of his nature as man. Whatever he was—that robot in the Garden of Eden, who existed without mind, without values, without labor, without love—he was not man. Man’s fall, according to your teachers, was that he gained the virtues required to live. These virtues, by their standard, are his Sin. His evil, they charge, is that he’s man. His guilt, they charge, is that he lives. They call it a morality of mercy and a doctrine of love for man. No, they say, they do not preach that man is evil, the evil is only that alien object: his body. No, they say, they do not wish to kill him, they only wish to make him lose his body. They seek to help him, they say, against his pain—and they point at the torture rack to which they’ve tied him, the rack with two wheels that pull him in opposite directions, the rack of the doctrine that splits his soul and body. ******************** Ayn Rand "Atlas Shrugged" "how did the Perfect get corrupted in the first Place? No,don't give me that Free-will-Jazz,that doesn't hold water! Actually it is jut an Obfuscation,so the real Question doesn't have to be answered! HOW did the Perfect get corrupted in the First Place! And don't blame Man either,remember,he had no Concept of Good and Evil until he tasted that Fruit!" Because God created us, not our choices. People will choose to do anything they wish to do. Even a child brought up very nicely could potentially grow up to be a serial killer. So, no our getting kicked out of Eden or anything else has absolutely nothing specifically to do with God in the causing of it, it was our own fault for our disobedience. You can NOT disobey! You are using exactly that very Obfuscation I asked you not to use,but expected you to,because you have no,and there is no answer! A Perfect being can not at in a disobedient or Imperfect manner! It's IMPOSSIBLE,regardless of the mental Acrobatics you employ! And then you go on and blame Man,who was created perfect,yet on his own Volition,even though he had no Knowledge of Good or Evil went and chose to become Evil! And all that before tasting that Fruit of the Knowledge Of Good and Evil! Before tasting that Fruit,mind you! Again, things you say have nothing to do with one another. How we act or behave has absolutely NOTHING to do with our physical creation. The ONLY way for us to have been automatically perfect in our choices, behaviors, thoughts, ect would have been made like robots with no real thought. But we have thoughts in which we control influenced by peers, environment, or any number of possible influences. If you are perfect,you can not chose the Imperfect! You can NOT disobey! Again, comparing apples and oranges with one another. We are made perfect, our BODIES and soul are perfect in how they function. That again after again has NOTHING to do with our choices or decisions. You're not getting it Cowboy! If we are MADE perfect, it's impossible to be anything but how we were made. How could a perfect being create imperfect people, UNLESS it wanted us to have flaws to begin with? And as an aside if our bodies and souls are made perfect how could that NOT effect our decisions.....would they not be in accordance with our souls? That makes no sense whatsoever....if we are capable of making a bad choice it means our soul cannot be perfect then under your definition, because choices stem what's in our souls to begin with. In any case you cannot have it both ways, either we were made perfectly for our purpose as we are, or we were made flawed. If we were made flawed, than God cannot be perfect because he made a mistake, something perfection does not do by definition. It's incapable of screwing up. Hell your God in the Bible is said to have regretted making man to the point he wanted to kill them off entirely and pretty much did in the great flood. That right there by itself indicates God screwed up, which AGAIN a perfect being could not do. It is one of the biggest flaws of the Biblical God, there's only two choices either God made us perfect and by extension everything is exactly as it was supposed to be "fall" and all, or God messed up, which would make it imperfect. Pick a side it cannot be both. I mean you're seriously gonna sit there and tell me God is so perfect and yet is incapable of creating a people who will do as it wants it to do? Incapable of having the foresight to know if he created them a certain way they'd do something it didn't want them to do (which then means it's not all knowing either, and if it DID know this and created us as such anyway, this God is even worse than imperfect, it's downright evil)? No, that doesn't work no matter how you try and spin it. God is either perfect or it's not, there's no inbetween. No, you're not getting it. How we are made has absolutely nothing to do with if we sin or not. We are all made the exact same way, yet we are all totally and completely different from one another in the way we think, act, behave, ect. If how we were made had anything to do with how we behaved in any way at all, we would all behave the exact same. |
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Any thing wrong if God had created satan to being a nice guy without rebelin' against him at the outset, Adam and Eve not fallin' in the garden of Eden...folks livin' happliy in paradise? It is not Satan's fault. One can not blame another for one's own actions. It was man's own action(s) that got ourselves taken out of the garden. Satan did tempt them, but nevertheless it was our choice to eat of the fruit... our = human race. |
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Any thing wrong if God had created satan to being a nice guy without rebelin' against him at the outset, Adam and Eve not fallin' in the garden of Eden...folks livin' happliy in paradise? It is not Satan's fault. One can not blame another for one's own actions. It was man's own action(s) that got ourselves taken out of the garden. Satan did tempt them, but nevertheless it was our choice to eat of the fruit... our = human race. No,don't give me that Free-will-Jazz,that doesn't hold water! Actually it is jut an Obfuscation,so the real Question doesn't have to be answered! HOW did the Perfect get corrupted in the First Place! And don't blame Man either,remember,he had no Concept of Good and Evil until he tasted that Fruit! ************* What is the nature of the guilt that your teachers call [man’s] Original Sin? What are the evils man acquired when he fell from a state they consider perfection? Their myth declares that he ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge—he acquired a mind and became a rational being. It was the knowledge of good and evil—he became a moral being. He was sentenced to earn his bread by his labor—he became a productive being. He was sentenced to experience desire—he acquired the capacity of sexual enjoyment. The evils for which they damn him are reason, morality, creativeness, joy—all the cardinal values of his existence. It is not his vices that their myth of man’s fall is designed to explain and condemn, it is not his errors that they hold as his guilt, but the essence of his nature as man. Whatever he was—that robot in the Garden of Eden, who existed without mind, without values, without labor, without love—he was not man. Man’s fall, according to your teachers, was that he gained the virtues required to live. These virtues, by their standard, are his Sin. His evil, they charge, is that he’s man. His guilt, they charge, is that he lives. They call it a morality of mercy and a doctrine of love for man. No, they say, they do not preach that man is evil, the evil is only that alien object: his body. No, they say, they do not wish to kill him, they only wish to make him lose his body. They seek to help him, they say, against his pain—and they point at the torture rack to which they’ve tied him, the rack with two wheels that pull him in opposite directions, the rack of the doctrine that splits his soul and body. ******************** Ayn Rand "Atlas Shrugged" "how did the Perfect get corrupted in the first Place? No,don't give me that Free-will-Jazz,that doesn't hold water! Actually it is jut an Obfuscation,so the real Question doesn't have to be answered! HOW did the Perfect get corrupted in the First Place! And don't blame Man either,remember,he had no Concept of Good and Evil until he tasted that Fruit!" Because God created us, not our choices. People will choose to do anything they wish to do. Even a child brought up very nicely could potentially grow up to be a serial killer. So, no our getting kicked out of Eden or anything else has absolutely nothing specifically to do with God in the causing of it, it was our own fault for our disobedience. You can NOT disobey! You are using exactly that very Obfuscation I asked you not to use,but expected you to,because you have no,and there is no answer! A Perfect being can not at in a disobedient or Imperfect manner! It's IMPOSSIBLE,regardless of the mental Acrobatics you employ! And then you go on and blame Man,who was created perfect,yet on his own Volition,even though he had no Knowledge of Good or Evil went and chose to become Evil! And all that before tasting that Fruit of the Knowledge Of Good and Evil! Before tasting that Fruit,mind you! Again, things you say have nothing to do with one another. How we act or behave has absolutely NOTHING to do with our physical creation. The ONLY way for us to have been automatically perfect in our choices, behaviors, thoughts, ect would have been made like robots with no real thought. But we have thoughts in which we control influenced by peers, environment, or any number of possible influences. If you are perfect,you can not chose the Imperfect! You can NOT disobey! Again, comparing apples and oranges with one another. We are made perfect, our BODIES and soul are perfect in how they function. That again after again has NOTHING to do with our choices or decisions. You're not getting it Cowboy! If we are MADE perfect, it's impossible to be anything but how we were made. How could a perfect being create imperfect people, UNLESS it wanted us to have flaws to begin with? And as an aside if our bodies and souls are made perfect how could that NOT effect our decisions.....would they not be in accordance with our souls? That makes no sense whatsoever....if we are capable of making a bad choice it means our soul cannot be perfect then under your definition, because choices stem what's in our souls to begin with. In any case you cannot have it both ways, either we were made perfectly for our purpose as we are, or we were made flawed. If we were made flawed, than God cannot be perfect because he made a mistake, something perfection does not do by definition. It's incapable of screwing up. Hell your God in the Bible is said to have regretted making man to the point he wanted to kill them off entirely and pretty much did in the great flood. That right there by itself indicates God screwed up, which AGAIN a perfect being could not do. It is one of the biggest flaws of the Biblical God, there's only two choices either God made us perfect and by extension everything is exactly as it was supposed to be "fall" and all, or God messed up, which would make it imperfect. Pick a side it cannot be both. I mean you're seriously gonna sit there and tell me God is so perfect and yet is incapable of creating a people who will do as it wants it to do? Incapable of having the foresight to know if he created them a certain way they'd do something it didn't want them to do (which then means it's not all knowing either, and if it DID know this and created us as such anyway, this God is even worse than imperfect, it's downright evil)? No, that doesn't work no matter how you try and spin it. God is either perfect or it's not, there's no inbetween. No, you're not getting it. How we are made has absolutely nothing to do with if we sin or not. We are all made the exact same way, yet we are all totally and completely different from one another in the way we think, act, behave, ect. If how we were made had anything to do with how we behaved in any way at all, we would all behave the exact same. This. There is no way we can choose "wrong" if we are created perfect. To be perfect means there is no wrong choice to be made, the moment we make one we are not perfect anymore. Even a child knows this. |
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