Topic: bible inconsistencies/ doesent mesh with the facts?
TBRich's photo
Mon 08/11/14 06:30 PM
"And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham." (GEN 22:1)

"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God; for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man." (JAS 1:13)

TBRich's photo
Mon 08/11/14 06:31 PM
Destruction of cities (what said was jeremiah was zechariah)

MAT 27:9 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value;

ZEC 11:11-13 (Note: There is nothing in Jeremiah remotely like this.)

CowboyGH's photo
Tue 08/12/14 05:35 AM

"And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham." (GEN 22:1)

"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God; for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man." (JAS 1:13)


Context TBRich

James 1
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.


James says God doesn't temp man with EVIL, God doesn't tempt us to sin against him as Satan does. Genesis is God testing Abraham. Not tempting him to sin as Satan tempts. God stopped Abraham before he did that which he was tempted with. Cause again he wasn't being "tempted" so to speak, he was being tested for a purpose.

CowboyGH's photo
Tue 08/12/14 05:35 AM

Destruction of cities (what said was jeremiah was zechariah)

MAT 27:9 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value;

ZEC 11:11-13 (Note: There is nothing in Jeremiah remotely like this.)



Taking two random verses that don't make sense together isn't a contradiction my friend.

TBRich's photo
Tue 08/12/14 07:10 AM


Destruction of cities (what said was jeremiah was zechariah)

MAT 27:9 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value;

ZEC 11:11-13 (Note: There is nothing in Jeremiah remotely like this.)



Taking two random verses that don't make sense together isn't a contradiction my friend.


Showing how Mat 27:9 quotes the wrong book of the OT doesn't count; perhaps he didn't read the bible either

CowboyGH's photo
Tue 08/12/14 08:50 AM



Destruction of cities (what said was jeremiah was zechariah)

MAT 27:9 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value;

ZEC 11:11-13 (Note: There is nothing in Jeremiah remotely like this.)



Taking two random verses that don't make sense together isn't a contradiction my friend.


Showing how Mat 27:9 quotes the wrong book of the OT doesn't count; perhaps he didn't read the bible either


Perhaps, but Mathew doesn't speak of Jeremiah. Says "Jeremy". "Nicnames" weren't aren't used in the scriptures. Nicnames such as my full name is Gregory, but more usually go by Greg. That is not the same as Jeremiah and Jeremy, two different names, two different persons. And besides that no "book" was even mentioned in Mat.

TBRich's photo
Tue 08/12/14 03:56 PM




Destruction of cities (what said was jeremiah was zechariah)

MAT 27:9 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value;

ZEC 11:11-13 (Note: There is nothing in Jeremiah remotely like this.)



Taking two random verses that don't make sense together isn't a contradiction my friend.


Showing how Mat 27:9 quotes the wrong book of the OT doesn't count; perhaps he didn't read the bible either


Perhaps, but Mathew doesn't speak of Jeremiah. Says "Jeremy". "Nicnames" weren't aren't used in the scriptures. Nicnames such as my full name is Gregory, but more usually go by Greg. That is not the same as Jeremiah and Jeremy, two different names, two different persons. And besides that no "book" was even mentioned in Mat.


Oh yes the well-known Jeremy the prophet! LOL

TBRich's photo
Wed 08/13/14 06:23 AM
The Order of Creation
Genesis 1:11-12 and 1:26-27 Trees came before Adam.
Genesis 2:4-9 Trees came after Adam.

Genesis 1:20-21 and 26-27 Birds were created before Adam.
Genesis 2:7 and 2:19 Birds were created after Adam.

Genesis 1:24-27 Animals were created before Adam.
Genesis 2:7 and 2:19 Animals were created after Adam.

Genesis 1:26-27 Adam and Eve were created at the same time.
Genesis 2:7 and 2:21-22 Adam was created first, woman sometime later.


CowboyGH's photo
Wed 08/13/14 10:43 AM

The Order of Creation
Genesis 1:11-12 and 1:26-27 Trees came before Adam.
Genesis 2:4-9 Trees came after Adam.

Genesis 1:20-21 and 26-27 Birds were created before Adam.
Genesis 2:7 and 2:19 Birds were created after Adam.

Genesis 1:24-27 Animals were created before Adam.
Genesis 2:7 and 2:19 Animals were created after Adam.

Genesis 1:26-27 Adam and Eve were created at the same time.
Genesis 2:7 and 2:21-22 Adam was created first, woman sometime later.




really?

Genesis 2:4-9

4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,


Verse 4 right there tells us it's a recap of what the Lord had done. The creation was done in Genesis 1, Genesis 2 is a recap and not specifically chronological. Nor does it say in 2 - 9 that the trees came after Adam.

Genesis 27-8

7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

8 And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

The Lord formed man and then made the Garden in Eden. That wasn't the only landforms the Lord had made, you forget about the rest of the world? Just the garden was planted after Adam, again doesn't mean the rest of the world was made after Adam.

CowboyGH's photo
Wed 08/13/14 10:45 AM


The Order of Creation
Genesis 1:11-12 and 1:26-27 Trees came before Adam.
Genesis 2:4-9 Trees came after Adam.

Genesis 1:20-21 and 26-27 Birds were created before Adam.
Genesis 2:7 and 2:19 Birds were created after Adam.

Genesis 1:24-27 Animals were created before Adam.
Genesis 2:7 and 2:19 Animals were created after Adam.

Genesis 1:26-27 Adam and Eve were created at the same time.
Genesis 2:7 and 2:21-22 Adam was created first, woman sometime later.




really?

Genesis 2:4-9

4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,


Verse 4 right there tells us it's a recap of what the Lord had done. The creation was done in Genesis 1, Genesis 2 is a recap and not specifically chronological. Nor does it say in 2 - 9 that the trees came after Adam.

Genesis 27-8

7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

8 And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

The Lord formed man and then made the Garden in Eden. That wasn't the only landforms the Lord had made, you forget about the rest of the world? Just the garden was planted after Adam, again doesn't mean the rest of the world was made after Adam.


Genesis 2:19
19 And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

See, Genesis 2 is a RECAP. Does NOT say this day he created this, that day he created that, ect. Just a recap saying what he created, and how he created it eg., out of the field. But that is not saying THAT was the day he created the beasts and fowl, just it twas the day the Lord brought them to Adam to be named.

TBRich's photo
Wed 08/13/14 02:52 PM
Can Man Be Righteous?
Genesis 7:1: The LORD then said to Noah, "Go into the ark, you and your whole family, because I have found you righteous in this generation.
Noah was righteous.

Job 2:3: Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason."
Job was righteous.

Luke 1:6: Both of them were upright in the sight of God, observing all the Lord’s commandments and regulations blamelessly.
Zechariah and Elizabeth were righteous.

James 5:16: Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.
Some men are righteous, and their prayers are effective.

1 John 3:7: Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous Christians become righteous.

Romans 3:10: As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one;
No one is righteous.

And while you are at it, please explain who Jeremy the prophet is and his document and why would he be quoted, when the quote is already in the canon elsewhere

CowboyGH's photo
Wed 08/13/14 03:02 PM

Can Man Be Righteous?
Genesis 7:1: The LORD then said to Noah, "Go into the ark, you and your whole family, because I have found you righteous in this generation.
Noah was righteous.

Job 2:3: Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason."
Job was righteous.

Luke 1:6: Both of them were upright in the sight of God, observing all the Lord’s commandments and regulations blamelessly.
Zechariah and Elizabeth were righteous.

James 5:16: Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.
Some men are righteous, and their prayers are effective.

1 John 3:7: Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous Christians become righteous.

Romans 3:10: As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one;
No one is righteous.

And while you are at it, please explain who Jeremy the prophet is and his document and why would he be quoted, when the quote is already in the canon elsewhere


Why wouldn't he be? The scriptures weren't originally written so that it would be put into a "canon". The scriptures are individual letters or other documents sent to a specific place, for a specific reason. Then was gathered together into what we call the bible. The bible itself wasn't just written up front to back. It's a collection of epistles an other documents gathered over a period of time.

CowboyGH's photo
Wed 08/13/14 03:06 PM


Can Man Be Righteous?
Genesis 7:1: The LORD then said to Noah, "Go into the ark, you and your whole family, because I have found you righteous in this generation.
Noah was righteous.

Job 2:3: Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason."
Job was righteous.

Luke 1:6: Both of them were upright in the sight of God, observing all the Lord’s commandments and regulations blamelessly.
Zechariah and Elizabeth were righteous.

James 5:16: Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.
Some men are righteous, and their prayers are effective.

1 John 3:7: Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous Christians become righteous.

Romans 3:10: As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one;
No one is righteous.

And while you are at it, please explain who Jeremy the prophet is and his document and why would he be quoted, when the quote is already in the canon elsewhere


Why wouldn't he be? The scriptures weren't originally written so that it would be put into a "canon". The scriptures are individual letters or other documents sent to a specific place, for a specific reason. Then was gathered together into what we call the bible. The bible itself wasn't just written up front to back. It's a collection of epistles an other documents gathered over a period of time.



Romans 3:10: As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one;
No one is righteous.


No there is no man righteous on his own. We are only made righteous through Christ and obeying his commandments. Before then, we are nothing but dirt. And after that, we are only righteous due to his love and compassion for us.

TBRich's photo
Wed 08/13/14 04:52 PM
From an interview with the Bishop John Shelby Spong:

“One of the things I had great fun with was compiling all of the human misbehaviors for which the Bible recommends the death penalty,” Spong said. “Did you know that in the book of Deuteronomy we are told that if a child is willfully disobedient and talks back to his or her parents, that child is to be taken to the elders of the city and stoned until dead at the gates of the city?”

Through examining and exposing the Bible’s inconsistencies and logical impossibilities, Spong says it can be reclaimed and no longer used as a weapon of prejudice and oppression.

Information about the Bible has been kept hidden from religious practitioners by the authority figures and powers in the church, Spong said.

“Someone said the church likes to treat laypeople like mushrooms,” he said. “You keep them in the dark and you cover them over with — shall we say — manure.”

Everything we have in the New Testament about Jesus floated through some kind of oral transmission for 40 to 70 years before anybody wrote it down. How literal can such a process be?

- John Shelby Spong
Retired bishop, Episcopal Church

Spong’s first point is that the Bible is young. In a world where the first human-like creatures appeared four million years ago, the 3,000-year-old Bible is a new arrival, Spong said.

His second point is that Moses did not author the Torah.

“In the 34th chapter of Deuteronomy, the last book of the Torah — the story of death — Moses’ death and burial is told. It’s a remarkable author that can write that,” Spong said.

The Torah was actually compiled over a span of 500 years, Spong said.

Bullet point three is that David did not write the Psalms. Spong said the Psalms were written following the exile, when David was already dead for at least 500 years.

The fourth point is that Solomon did not write the Proverbs.

“One surely wonders how it came about that a man who had 300 wives and 700 concubines could ever have been thought of as wise,” Spong said.

Spong’s fifth point is that the prophets of the Hebrew faith were unaware that their writings would be considered Scriptures. Spong called them “counterculture creatures.”

The sixth point is that there are three different and contradictory versions of the Ten Commandments.

“You cannot really name the Ten Commandments biblically, because they do not agree,” Spong said. “One’s in Exodus 20, one’s in Exodus 34 and one’s in Deuteronomy 5.”

Spong’s seventh point is that Mark wrote the first Gospel, and John the last. The first Gospels were written in Greek over 40 years, or at least two generations after the crucifixion. The last Gospels were written until at least 65 years after Jesus died, Spong said

“Everything we have in the New Testament about Jesus floated through some kind of oral transmission for 40 to 70 years before anybody wrote it down,” he said. “How literal can such a process be?”

His eighth point is that Paul did all his writing between the years 51 and 64, before any Gospels were written down. Not all the Epistles considered “Pauline” were actually written by Paul. Spong said the authentic Epistles of Paul were First Thessalonians, Galatians, First Corinthians, Second Corinthians, Romans, Philemon and Philippians.

“Number nine: There is no evidence that we can find anywhere that miracles understood as supernatural acts were ever associated with the memory of Jesus of Nazareth before the eighth decade of this Common Era,” Spong said.

Spong’s 10th and 11th points are that the theory of the virgin birth does not enter the Christian history until the ninth decade, and the story of Jesus’ ascension does not enter Christian history until the 10th decade.

Spong’s 12th point is that Jesus’ followers did not leave the synagogue until 58 years after Jesus’ crucifixion.

“The division between Christianity and Judaism is a very late division,” he said. “The Christian inability to place its story into a Jewish context is the primary source, I believe, of the way the Christian story has been distorted with literalism.”

Spong’s final point is that there is no proof Paul was ever aware of the story of the virgin birth, or that Paul ever met a person named Judas Iscariot.


no photo
Thu 08/14/14 06:22 AM
Edited by rambill79 on Thu 08/14/14 06:34 AM
why would i take seriously anyones beliefs from the catholic church? signed, confused. They wrote the book on church doctrine being more important than the bible. When i was in catholic schools, i would get the nuns and 'fathers' so mad at me , when i asked them questions they couldent answer, like for example, who are these saints and where in the bible does it say i should worship them? thier amswer was usually something like,,, "we will tell you what is important," or " you cant read that part of the bible, its not for you". .... And what about this mother mary worship? Or, " thou shalt not kneel before a craven image", and then i see 21 kneeling stations in the catholic church, before carved images...? Do you really think jesus wants to see another cross? If he had been electrocuted, would they all wear little electric chairs around thier necks? Holy water? calling the priest 'father"? Also, these are the same people who have brought us the inquisition. IF YOU WANT TRUTH, LOOK ELSEWHERE. IF you are happy with being told what to believe, then thats your choice. so, to recap, any time i see any writings by any bishop, pope, ect, i dont waste my precious time reading it. life is too short for that.

no photo
Thu 08/14/14 06:46 AM






From the Hebrew name מֹשֶׁה (Mosheh) which is most likely derived from Egyptian mes meaning "son", but could also possibly mean "deliver" in Hebrew. The meaning suggested in the Old Testament of "drew out" from Hebrew משה (mashah) is probably an invented etymology.


Quite random there, does not address anything anyone has said, please stay on topic. These threads get off into left field to much as it is, or please explain the relevance of this comment to the thread in itself. Nobody even mentioned or referred to (Mosheh)The only name mentioned is Moses and that is egyptian origin.


I am referencing your statement that Moses is an Egyptian name.


How is a "Hebrew" name in reference to an "Egyptian" name/person, as Moses is an Egyptian name and your statement has no reference to "Moses". Moses wasn't Hebrew, he was a former Egyptian prince.


Moses is derived from the Hebrew Mosheh; Perhaps you should read Moses and Monotheism by Freud as an introduction to the concept


No sir, Moses is an Egyptian name. Which is totally accurate as Moses was a former Egyptian prince. Moses has nothing to do with the Hebrews in this context, he was not a Hebrew, he was again an Egyptian.
Moses was a Levite, from the tribe of Levi (one of the twelve tribe of Israel) He was raised by Pharoah's daughter. Exodus 2 1-3 The Jews are not the whole tribe of Israel, they are only one of the twelve tribes.

Conrad_73's photo
Thu 08/14/14 07:00 AM
Moses (Hebrew: מֹשֶׁה‎, Modern Moshe Tiberian Mōšéh ISO 259-3 Moše ; Syriac: ܡܘܫܐ Moushe; Arabic: موسى‎ Mūsā ) was, according to the Hebrew Bible, a former Egyptian prince later turned prophet, religious leader and lawgiver, to whom the authorship of the Torah is traditionally attributed. Also called Moshe Rabbenu in Hebrew (מֹשֶׁה רַבֵּנוּ, Lit. "Moses our Teacher/Rabbi"), he is the most important prophet in Judaism.[1][2] He is also an important prophet in Christianity and Islam, as well as a number of other faiths.

The existence of Moses as well as the veracity of the Exodus story are disputed among archaeologists and Egyptologists, with experts in the field of biblical criticism citing logical inconsistencies, new archaeological evidence, historical evidence, and related origin myths in Canaanite culture.[3][4][5] Other historians maintain that the biographical details and Egyptian background attributed to Moses imply the existence of a historical political and religious leader who was involved in the consolidation of the Hebrew tribes in Canaan towards the end of the Bronze Age.

According to the Book of Exodus, Moses was born in a time when his people, the Children of Israel, were increasing in numbers and the Egyptian Pharaoh was worried that they might ally with Egypt's enemies. Moses' Hebrew mother, Jochebed, secretly hid him when the Pharaoh ordered all newborn Hebrew boys to be killed upon the circulating prophecy among Egyptian priests of a messianic deliverer among the Hebrew slaves. Through the Pharaoh's sister Queen Bithia, the child was adopted as a foundling from the Nile river and grew up with the Egyptian royal family. After killing an Egyptian slavemaster, Moses fled across the Red Sea to Midian, where he encountered the God of Israel in the form of a "burning bush".

God sent Moses back to Egypt to demand the release of the Israelites from slavery. After the Ten Plagues, Moses led the Exodus of the Israelites out of Egypt and across the Red Sea, after which they based themselves at Mount Sinai, where Moses received the Ten Commandments. After 40 years of wandering in the desert, Moses died within sight of the Promised Land.

Rabbinical Judaism calculated a lifespan of Moses corresponding to 1391–1271 BCE;[6] Jerome gives 1592 BCE, and Ussher 1619 BCE as his birth year.[7]

Moses' name is given to him by Pharaoh's daughter: "He became her son, and she named him Moshe (Moses)." This name may be either Egyptian or Hebrew. If connected to an Egyptian root, via msy "to be born" and ms, "a son", it forms a wordplay: "he became her son, and she named him Son." There should, however, be a divine element to the name Moses (bearers of the Egyptian name are the "son of" a god, as in Thutmose, "son of Thut"), and his full name may therefore have included the name of one of the Egyptian gods. If the name is from a Hebrew root, then it is connected to the verb "to draw out": "I drew him (masha) out of the water," states Pharaoh's daughter, possibly looking forward to Moses at the well in Midian, or to his role in saving Israel at the Red Sea. Most scholars agree that the name is Egyptian, and that the Hebrew etymology is a later interpretation.[8]
WIKI

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses

TBRich's photo
Thu 08/14/14 12:47 PM

why would i take seriously anyones beliefs from the catholic church? signed, confused. They wrote the book on church doctrine being more important than the bible. When i was in catholic schools, i would get the nuns and 'fathers' so mad at me , when i asked them questions they couldent answer, like for example, who are these saints and where in the bible does it say i should worship them? thier amswer was usually something like,,, "we will tell you what is important," or " you cant read that part of the bible, its not for you". .... And what about this mother mary worship? Or, " thou shalt not kneel before a craven image", and then i see 21 kneeling stations in the catholic church, before carved images...? Do you really think jesus wants to see another cross? If he had been electrocuted, would they all wear little electric chairs around thier necks? Holy water? calling the priest 'father"? Also, these are the same people who have brought us the inquisition. IF YOU WANT TRUTH, LOOK ELSEWHERE. IF you are happy with being told what to believe, then thats your choice.


Clearly, as stated, Bishop Spong is not Catholic; he attended Harvard Divinity College; while he is not a biblical scholar, his books are to make biblical scholarship assessable to the general population.

TBRich's photo
Thu 08/14/14 01:08 PM
Moses was born on 7 Adar in the year 2368 from Creation (circa 1400 BCE), the son of Amram, a member of the tribe of Levi, and Yocheved, Levi's daughter (Ex. 6:16-20). Unlike the heroes of many other ancient cultures, Moses did not have a miraculous birth. Amram married Yocheved, and she conceived, and she gave birth (Ex. 2:1-2). The only unusual thing about his birth is Yocheved's advanced age: Yocheved was born while Jacob and his family were entering Egypt, so she was 130 when Moses was born. His father named him Chaver, and his grandfather called him Avigdor, but he is known to history as Moses, a name given to him by Pharaoh's daughter.

The name "Moses" comes from a root meaning "take out," because Moses was taken out of the river (Ex. 2:10). Some modern scholars point out that the root M-S-S in Egyptian means "son of" as in the name Ramases (son of Ra), but it is worth noting that Moses' name in Hebrew is M-Sh-H, not M-S-S. According to one Jewish source, Pharaoh's daughter actually named him Minios, which means "drawn out" in Egyptian, and the name Moshe (Moses) was a Hebrew translation of that name, just as a Russian immigrant named Ivan might change his name to the English equivalent, John.

no photo
Fri 08/15/14 06:03 AM


why would i take seriously anyones beliefs from the catholic church? signed, confused. They wrote the book on church doctrine being more important than the bible. When i was in catholic schools, i would get the nuns and 'fathers' so mad at me , when i asked them questions they couldent answer, like for example, who are these saints and where in the bible does it say i should worship them? thier amswer was usually something like,,, "we will tell you what is important," or " you cant read that part of the bible, its not for you". .... And what about this mother mary worship? Or, " thou shalt not kneel before a craven image", and then i see 21 kneeling stations in the catholic church, before carved images...? Do you really think jesus wants to see another cross? If he had been electrocuted, would they all wear little electric chairs around thier necks? Holy water? calling the priest 'father"? Also, these are the same people who have brought us the inquisition. IF YOU WANT TRUTH, LOOK ELSEWHERE. IF you are happy with being told what to believe, then thats your choice.

hmmm if he is not catholic, whay is he a bishop? even more confused.

Clearly, as stated, Bishop Spong is not Catholic; he attended Harvard Divinity College; while he is not a biblical scholar, his books are to make biblical scholarship assessable to the general population.