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Topic: 5 reasons
TBRich's photo
Wed 08/27/14 06:12 AM
5 Reasons to Suspect Jesus Never Existed
A growing number of scholars are openly questioning or actively arguing against whether Jesus lived.

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August 22, 2014 |




Most antiquities scholars think that the New Testament gospels are “mythologized history.” In other words, they think that around the start of the first century a controversial Jewish rabbi named Yeshua ben Yosef gathered a following and his life and teachings provided the seed that grew into Christianity.

At the same time, these scholars acknowledge that many Bible stories like the virgin birth, miracles, resurrection, and women at the tomb borrow and rework mythic themes that were common in the Ancient Near East, much the way that screenwriters base new movies on old familiar tropes or plot elements. In this view, a “historical Jesus” became mythologized.

For over 200 years, a wide ranging array of theologians and historians—most of them Christian—analyzed ancient texts, both those that made it into the Bible and those that didn’t, in attempts to excavate the man behind the myth. Several current or recent bestsellers take this approach, distilling the scholarship for a popular audience. Familiar titles include Zealotby Reza Aslan and How Jesus Became Godby Bart Ehrman.

But other scholars believe that the gospel stories are actually “historicized mythology.” In this view, those ancient mythic templates are themselves the kernel. They got filled in with names, places and other real world details as early sects of Jesus worship attempted to understand and defend the devotional traditions they had received.

The notion that Jesus never existed is a minority position. Of course it is! says David Fitzgerald, author of Nailed: Ten Christian Myths That Show Jesus Never Existed at All.For centuries all serious scholars of Christianity were Christians themselves, and modern secular scholars lean heavily on the groundwork that they laid in collecting, preserving, and analyzing ancient texts. Even today most secular scholars come out of a religious background, and many operate by default under historical presumptions of their former faith.

Fitzgerald is an atheist speaker and writer, popular with secular students and community groups. The internet phenom, Zeitgeist the Movie introduced millions to some of the mythic roots of Christianity. But Zeitgeist and similar works contain known errors and oversimplifications that undermine their credibility. Fitzgerald seeks to correct that by giving young people interesting, accessible information that is grounded in accountable scholarship.

More academic arguments in support of the Jesus Myth theory can be found in the writings of Richard Carrier and Robert Price. Carrier, who has a Ph.D. in ancient history uses the tools of his trade to show, among other things, how Christianity might have gotten off the ground without a miracle. Price, by contrast, writes from the perspective of a theologian whose biblical scholarship ultimately formed the basis for his skepticism. It is interesting to note that some of the harshest debunkers of fringe Jesus myth theories like those from Zeitgeist or Joseph Atwill (who tries to argue that the Romans invented Jesus) are from serious Mythicists like Fitzgerald, Carrier and Price.

The arguments on both sides of this question—mythologized history or historicized mythology—fill volumes, and if anything the debate seems to be heating up rather than resolving. A growing number of scholars are openly questioning or actively arguing against Jesus’ historicity. Since many people, both Christian and not, find it surprising that this debate even exists—that credible scholars might think Jesus never existed—here are some of the key points that keep the doubts alive:

1. No first century secular evidence whatsoever exists to support the actuality of Yeshua ben Yosef. In the words of Bart Ehrman: “What sorts of things do pagan authors from the time of Jesus have to say about him? Nothing. As odd as it may seem, there is no mention of Jesus at all by any of his pagan contemporaries. There are no birth records, no trial transcripts, no death certificates; there are no expressions of interest, no heated slanders, no passing references – nothing. In fact, if we broaden our field of concern to the years after his death – even if we include the entire first century of the Common Era – there is not so much as a solitary reference to Jesus in any non-Christian, non-Jewish source of any kind. I should stress that we do have a large number of documents from the time – the writings of poets, philosophers, historians, scientists, and government officials, for example, not to mention the large collection of surviving inscriptions on stone and private letters and legal documents on papyrus. In none of this vast array of surviving writings is Jesus’ name ever so much as mentioned.” (pp. 56-57)

2. The earliest New Testament writers seem ignorant of the details of Jesus’ life, which become more crystalized in later texts.Paul seems unaware of any virgin birth, for example. No wise men, no star in the east, no miracles. Historians have long puzzled over the “Silence of Paul” on the most basic biographical facts and teachings of Jesus. Paul fails to cite Jesus’ authority precisely when it would make his case. What’s more, he never calls the twelve apostles Jesus’ disciples; in fact, he never says Jesus HAD disciples –or a ministry, or did miracles, or gave teachings. He virtually refuses to disclose any other biographical detail, and the few cryptic hints he offers aren’t just vague, but contradict the gospels. The leaders of the early Christian movement in Jerusalem like Peter and James are supposedly Jesus’ own followers and family; but Paul dismisses them as nobodies and repeatedly opposes them for not being true Christians!

Liberal theologian Marcus Borg suggests that people read the books of the New Testament in chronological order to see how early Christianity unfolded. “Placing the Gospels after Paul makes it clear that as written documents they are not the source of early Christianity but its product. The Gospel -- the good news -- of and about Jesus existed before the Gospels. They are the products of early Christian communities several decades after Jesus' historical life and tell us how those communities saw his significance in their historical context.”

3. Even the New Testament stories don’t claim to be first-hand accounts. We now know that the four gospels were assigned the names of the apostles Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, not written by them. To make matter sketchier, the name designations happened sometime in second century, around 100 years or more after Christianity supposedly began. For a variety of reasons, the practice of pseudonymous writing was common at the time and many contemporary documents are “signed” by famous figures. The same is true of the New Testament epistles except for a handful of letters from Paul (6 out of 13) which are broadly thought to be genuine. But even the gospel stories don’t actually say, “I was there.” Rather, they claim the existence of other witnesses, a phenomenon familiar to anyone who has heard the phrase, my aunt knew someone who . . . .

4. The gospels, our only accounts of a historical Jesus, contradict each other.If you think you know the Jesus story pretty well, I suggest that you pause at this point to test yourself with the 20 question quiz at ExChristian.net.

The gospel of Mark is thought to be the earliest existing “life of Jesus,” and linguistic analysis suggests that Luke and Matthew both simply reworked Mark and added their own corrections and new material. But they contradict each other and, to an even greater degree contradict the much later gospel of John, because they were written with different objectives for different audiences. The incompatible Easter stories offer one example of how much the stories disagree.

5. Modern scholars who claim to have uncovered the real historical Jesus depict wildly different persons. They include a cynic philosopher, charismatic Hasid, liberal Pharisee, conservative rabbi, Zealot revolutionary, nonviolent pacifist to borrow from a much longer list assembled by Price. In his words (pp. 15-16), “The historical Jesus (if there was one) might well have been a messianic king, or a progressive Pharisee, or a Galilean shaman, or a magus, or a Hellenistic sage. But he cannot very well have been all of them at the same time.” John Dominic Crossan of the Jesus Seminar grumbles that “the stunning diversity is an academic embarrassment.”

For David Fitzgerald, these issues and more lead to a conclusion that he finds inescapable:

Jesus appears to be an effect, not a cause, of Christianity. Paul and the rest of the first generation of Christians searched the Septuagint translation of Hebrew scriptures to create a Mystery Faith for the Jews, complete with pagan rituals like a Lord’s Supper, Gnostic terms in his letters, and a personal savior god to rival those in their neighbors’ longstanding Egyptian, Persian, Hellenistic and Roman traditions.

In a soon-to-be-released follow up to Nailed, entitled Jesus: Mything in Action, Fitzgerald argues that the many competing versions proposed by secular scholars are just as problematic as any “Jesus of Faith:” Even if one accepts that there was a real Jesus of Nazareth, the question has little practical meaning: Regardless of whether or not a first century rabbi called Yeshua ben Yosef lived, the “historical Jesus” figures so patiently excavated and re-assembled by secular scholars are themselves fictions.

We may never know for certain what put Christian history in motion. Only time (or perhaps time travel) will tell.

Valerie Tarico is a psychologist and writer in Seattle, Washington and the founder of Wisdom Commons. She is the author of "Trusting Doubt: A Former Evangelical Looks at Old Beliefs in a New Light" and "Deas and Other Imaginings." Her articles can be found at Awaypoint.Wordpress.com.

CowboyGH's photo
Wed 08/27/14 08:30 AM
interesting, but lol. Weather he lived or not is entirely believed on by faith. That is why the scriptures teach us about faith and why we are judged there on about our faith we've placed.

Matthew 17:20

20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

But it is everyone's choice on what they place their faith in. No matter if there is "proof" either way, you'd still be placing your faith in that "facts" being true or not.

no photo
Wed 08/27/14 03:14 PM
Such is the hope of Agnosticism, along with yet another five reasons for disquieting doubt for allowing restful sleep or complete composer while lying on One's death-bed. whoa (Sarcasm Here)

Really, just how current does any info about Jesus have to be?
Does every Agnostic merit a personal cameo appearance?
Is every historical account from somebody who's long since passed a cause for skepticism?
If You lived upward of a hundred years ago and You needed to record something indefinitely... Got a better option than writing it down?
Do You derive great comfort from the latest ridiculers and the 'loving bundle of hopelessness' they bring?


TBRich's photo
Wed 08/27/14 03:52 PM

Such is the hope of Agnosticism, along with yet another five reasons for disquieting doubt for allowing restful sleep or complete composer while lying on One's death-bed. whoa (Sarcasm Here)

Really, just how current does any info about Jesus have to be?
Does every Agnostic merit a personal cameo appearance?
Is every historical account from somebody who's long since passed a cause for skepticism?
If You lived upward of a hundred years ago and You needed to record something indefinitely... Got a better option than writing it down?
Do You derive great comfort from the latest ridiculers and the 'loving bundle of hopelessness' they bring?




Shhh.... if you didn't know... I have a very specific audience for these posts. This one in particular is very naive, but if it tweeks my target audience, I'll give it a shot. I am a prick like that.

no photo
Wed 08/27/14 04:22 PM
I must admit, whether or not some people belief in the weather is quite disquieting.

For as often as anybody asks me about the weather, Irish logic tells me it's outside. :banana:

TBRich's photo
Wed 08/27/14 04:26 PM
Edited by TBRich on Wed 08/27/14 04:28 PM

I must admit, whether or not some people belief in the weather is quite disquieting.

For as often as anybody asks me about the weather, Irish logic tells me it's outside. :banana:


Outside the box? What is outside the heart? Can one live for something bigger than oneself, can one not?

Reflection is the lamp of the heart. If it departs, the heart will have no light.”
― ʻAbd Allāh ibn ʻAlawī ʻAṭṭās

TBRich's photo
Wed 08/27/14 04:33 PM
A donkey with a load of holy books is still a donkey.


Whatever you have in your mind - forget it.


For every sin but the killing of Time there is forgiveness.


If someone remarks: "What an excellent man you are!" and this pleases you more than his saying, "What a bad man you are!" know that you are still a bad man.

no photo
Wed 08/27/14 04:45 PM
Whatever I have in my mind... Forget it?
Easier said then done!

Tell the truth, this is time well wasted.


Exclusive scene the Sheihk ----> drinks <---- and TB Rich.

TBRich's photo
Wed 08/27/14 04:47 PM

Whatever I have in my mind... Forget it?
Easier said then done!

Tell the truth, this is time well wasted.


Exclusive scene the Sheihk ----> drinks <---- and TB Rich.


Insha'Allah my friend

julliedee's photo
Thu 10/30/14 01:40 AM
WHAT ON EARTH IS WRONG WITH YOU?Cant you keep your theories to yourself ? Or if you must actually talk tell us some fact about the one u think existed whom your mind tells you is worthy!we might as well follow him....but a peace of mind if you dont believe in something dont pay attention to it by posting negative things here coz not everyone is like you.....religion is spiritual and we all believe in something either Jesus or satan
or mohammed or sun or mary or angels etc!
So pliz give Jesus a break! TELL US ABOUT WHO U SERVE INSTEAD!

davidben1's photo
Thu 10/30/14 03:13 AM
if jesus did live as writ, and did ascend as now an adult god, rather than before as a child god, than it is surely he is capable of defending his own existence if and when the time arise...

and if he did not exist, then many child gods have made their own children to be killed over if he did or did not live, hardly seeming something if he did live, he would not be sorely sad about, since it was his greatest sayings that dazzeled the world for so many a years...

love thy neighbor as thy self.

and so it seems the purported most greatest wish of this jesus, was that each loved and treated their neighbors as good and kind, creating a better world for all...

and so since it was writ such beautiful words of someone, and he was not begging for people to love him, but rather wished greater the harmony and goodness of love for others...

than, peoples were attracted to these things...

and so the infamy began, some 2014 years ago...

it does seem kinda weird that calenders began to calculate time from the time of "his" death, and that such would occur based upon actually no death of this one at all...

and it does seem kinda weird many of his "disciples" were willing to be killed in the most heinous of ways after his death, for even knowing this "fake" guy that didn't exist...

were these killed by people 2014 years ago, because they spoke of a fables, and were friends with a fable, and not a real person...

such hardly seems likely...

and then it seems even more weird, few deem there to be any doubts as to the disciples to have existed, as these began the many different protestant and catholic churches we have today...

and all these huge empires of religion were all created bases upon complete lies...

and how many people would have had to be in on this conspiracy together, to create this totally false story of jesus...

and then, when this one was reportedly killed by peoples who did not like being told to be nicer, as mean people do have a tendency to deeply resent their actions being called into question...

and the emperor pilot we know did exist...

and for time to begin to calculated afresh from that date forward, and why to this day, we say in the year 2014, rather than something more along the lines of in the year 6514...

that being still in some gray area, but generally historians, NOT SCHOLARS, who get PAID by churches and religious groups, date modern man back to about 4500 bbc, which would be then roughly in the present 6514 we live in...

lovers of debate find it quite a great debate, understandable...

whilst lovers of humanity seem to find it quite different, seeing rather it being more of the wish and hope of a none violent place to come, due to all the things this guy supposedly said, and that this jesus reportedly did do many magical feats, even wishing his dear friend lazarus back into his mortal body for a spell...

and it occurring...

smiles...

so understandable on their part as well...

it is hard to imagine a legacy lasting some 2014 years and still hotly contested, over a mere story some single human could have ever created out of thin air...

either way, if he did exist, i highly respect what he stood for, and if he did not, than it is the moral of the story i respect, and the principles it begat unto humanity...

for this ghost one jesus did find it quite appalling that peoples were being told they needed to pay money to have their sins, i mean mistakes forgiven, and so did reportedly turn over money changing tables in some holy buildings...

which again, belies the essence of the character of goodness, rather than a debate of existence.







TBRich's photo
Thu 10/30/14 06:55 AM

WHAT ON EARTH IS WRONG WITH YOU?Cant you keep your theories to yourself ? Or if you must actually talk tell us some fact about the one u think existed whom your mind tells you is worthy!we might as well follow him....but a peace of mind if you dont believe in something dont pay attention to it by posting negative things here coz not everyone is like you.....religion is spiritual and we all believe in something either Jesus or satan
or mohammed or sun or mary or angels etc!
So pliz give Jesus a break! TELL US ABOUT WHO U SERVE INSTEAD!


1. LOL! I got the "What on Earth is wrong with today?" Three times just this morning at work. My posts do not always reflect my personal beliefs, but stimulate conversation and/or thinking. As my old theology professor would say: those who respect the Bible have never actually read it; or as the Islamic sufi would say: a donkey with a load of holy books is still a donkey.

2. My personal beliefs? I follow the Noahide code (7 laws of Noah), which can be summarizes as : 1. Love the HaShem your g-d with all your heart; 2. Love one another. I thinks someone else also said something similar. But whether Noah existed or not, does not effect my belief whatsoever.

3. A person whom I think is worthy? Epicurus

4. Who I serve? the Logos (Ancient Fire)

5. What is wrong with me? My thoughts are not your thoughts and my ways are not your ways

no photo
Thu 10/30/14 01:03 PM
Hey TB Rich, is julliedee pissed-off with You...? me...? or both of us?

I can't safely say what's wrong with me, but it does need to be said that TB Rich loves to play Devil advocate... It's what he does best! Professor Rich is all about destructive testing and 'Let's find-out what are the unnecessary components!' There's nothing quite like throwing some metaphorical **** at the allegorical fan and seeing what happens next.
(Believe It Or Not...This Is A Compliment)smile2

no photo
Thu 10/30/14 01:08 PM
HEY!!!!!!

This site just censored my use of the word S followed by H followed by I and ending with T.

I think using this word is just colorful language. (Granted It's Usually Just Brown)

Okay, from here on in it's EXCRAMENT for everybody!

Vera's photo
Fri 10/31/14 05:32 PM
Ecclesiastes 6:11
The more the words, the less the meaning, and how does that profit anyone?

no photo
Fri 10/31/14 05:43 PM
I agree Sister, all is vanity.

Solomon's Ecclesiastes... My favorite book right in the middle of the Bible.

msharmony's photo
Fri 10/31/14 07:33 PM
Edited by msharmony on Fri 10/31/14 07:40 PM
I suspect its just a commentary folks,,I suspect there is not much fact there, though I couldn't bother to read it all after becoming disinterested at this boldly and most likely inaccurate declaration at the beginning

'No first century secular evidence whatsoever exists '

,,there are indeed writings of jesus in the FIRST century (to be read from the year of our lords birth(AD) to 100 years after)


not to mention the intentional comparing of apples and oranges, (to be read modern culture with biblical culture),, in such things as assuming no birth record is reason to be suspicious of someones existence,,,,

Im sure we don't have BIRTH records for the overwhelming majority of people in that time, I don't believe they kept them to quite the extent we do,, being nomadic and all,,,

and if they had, I wouldn't imagine that there would be a place to keep them in any 'legal' manner about Jesus birth which would have been such a controversial event during that time in that culture,,,


but it always comes back to people choosing to doubt or believe what they want,,,,,truth is truth, even when it cant be proven

and if you KNOW a truth, before its ever proven, does it make it any less true?


,,,,,there are always reasons to doubt, and conversely, always reasons to believe,,,the choice is which reasons will be our foundation ,,,


davidben1's photo
Fri 10/31/14 09:47 PM
some live for the feeling of the momentary human euphoria of feeling wiser by winning what can be debated, for their greatest love is not peace and happy and joy for their loved one's and then all on earth, but rather to feel as if self be smarter, over what could be debated until the earths begin anew, but the pleasures and joys of living for what shall create a better reality for all, these sad lovers of self vanity shall never taste of, and sadly, their loves one's live with perpetual sadness because of these but worshipping the FEELING of being smart.

tis a sad sadder saddest thing.

Vera's photo
Sun 11/02/14 02:21 PM

My posts do not always reflect my personal beliefs, but stimulate conversation and/or thinking.


Manipulation plus voyorism? Playing a bad game with good people?
- When you have nothing good to say, say nothing at all. -

davidben1's photo
Sun 11/02/14 11:33 PM
Edited by davidben1 on Sun 11/02/14 11:36 PM
Professionally unedited by the National Editors Association.

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