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Topic: if ron paul would have became president, if only we were so
Conrad_73's photo
Fri 03/06/15 03:19 AM

All those entities you have mentioned have failed millions of people, this is where the government needs to come in and not leave them to fend for themselves, but include them in society in a productive and meaningful way, not to have them remain bottom feeders.



no photo
Fri 03/06/15 03:24 AM


At least we agree that currently the big government welfare system we have is only keeping people down and it is designed to do this. What would happen if it weren't designed to keep people down, but instead to help people get up?
Or do you incorrectly believe that poor people inherently don't want to get out of poverty?


No, quite the contrary. People want to get out of poverty, but the government, with their mismanagement of the welfare system, provides more incentives to stay on the system than to get off the system. The bureaucrats fear for their jobs if people get off the dole. It's the basic principle of self interest. My natural desire is to take care of myself and my family first. The same is true of you and every other person. If keeping other people impoverished is how the bureaucrats keep their jobs to provide for their families, that's what they are going to do. The impoverished, acting in what they have been led to believe is in their self interest, are going to take the handouts instead of working to not need the help. Which is why this is better handled at the local level. I have more incentive to help the guy in my town who is down on his luck than you do, and because his success is beneficial to my community, and ultimately me, I should help him and get others in the community to help him. Local works better. It always has.


I agree, government and anyone else claiming to 'help' doesn't necessarily actually help (because of wrong intent or ignorance about how to solve the problem, whichever).
Charities have not ended poverty, neither have families.
Besides this is not a family problem or a spiritual problem or whatever you call charity cases. Go look at any major city in America and see how even the police are afraid to help the poor. Government workers don't even know how to deal with them, like you said it is a problem. But it needs to be addressed by the government in an individualist society like ours (it means we leave people to fend for themselves sometimes and call it freedom).


Conrad_73's photo
Fri 03/06/15 03:25 AM



At least we agree that currently the big government welfare system we have is only keeping people down and it is designed to do this. What would happen if it weren't designed to keep people down, but instead to help people get up?
Or do you incorrectly believe that poor people inherently don't want to get out of poverty?


No, quite the contrary. People want to get out of poverty, but the government, with their mismanagement of the welfare system, provides more incentives to stay on the system than to get off the system. The bureaucrats fear for their jobs if people get off the dole. It's the basic principle of self interest. My natural desire is to take care of myself and my family first. The same is true of you and every other person. If keeping other people impoverished is how the bureaucrats keep their jobs to provide for their families, that's what they are going to do. The impoverished, acting in what they have been led to believe is in their self interest, are going to take the handouts instead of working to not need the help. Which is why this is better handled at the local level. I have more incentive to help the guy in my town who is down on his luck than you do, and because his success is beneficial to my community, and ultimately me, I should help him and get others in the community to help him. Local works better. It always has.


I agree, government and anyone else claiming to 'help' doesn't necessarily actually help (because of wrong intent or ignorance about how to solve the problem, whichever).
Charities have not ended poverty, neither have families.
Besides this is not a family problem or a spiritual problem or whatever you call charity cases. Go look at any major city in America and see how even the police are afraid to help the poor. Government workers don't even know how to deal with them, like you said it is a problem. But it needs to be addressed by the government in an individualist society like ours (it means we leave people to fend for themselves sometimes and call it freedom).


go pick it off the Trees where you think it grows!

no photo
Fri 03/06/15 03:33 AM


All those entities you have mentioned have failed millions of people, this is where the government needs to come in and not leave them to fend for themselves, but include them in society in a productive and meaningful way, not to have them remain bottom feeders.





It is not a spiritual problem to be poor and wait for charity...it is economical. Anyone who helps the poor out of pity is only perpetuating the stereotype.
We are not living 200 years ago when slavery was ok. We need to get beyond thinking that work should go unpaid or underpaid and it's alright. We need to get over looking down our noses at the poor and start calling it economic discrimination. Just like sexism and racism. Why do we ignore the biggest ism in America of all time? Classism. Which you all exhibit so well, Bravo!

Argo's photo
Fri 03/06/15 03:33 AM
to enjoy the inalienable right of life liberty and the pursuit of happiness a man in this day and age needs a minimum wage of 15 dollars an hour.....those who sell out for less are only lowering the standard of living for everyone......the carrot must be fed slowly to the donkey, a little at a time, so as to keep him pulling the cart continuously....

MadDog1974's photo
Fri 03/06/15 03:39 AM



At least we agree that currently the big government welfare system we have is only keeping people down and it is designed to do this. What would happen if it weren't designed to keep people down, but instead to help people get up?
Or do you incorrectly believe that poor people inherently don't want to get out of poverty?


No, quite the contrary. People want to get out of poverty, but the government, with their mismanagement of the welfare system, provides more incentives to stay on the system than to get off the system. The bureaucrats fear for their jobs if people get off the dole. It's the basic principle of self interest. My natural desire is to take care of myself and my family first. The same is true of you and every other person. If keeping other people impoverished is how the bureaucrats keep their jobs to provide for their families, that's what they are going to do. The impoverished, acting in what they have been led to believe is in their self interest, are going to take the handouts instead of working to not need the help. Which is why this is better handled at the local level. I have more incentive to help the guy in my town who is down on his luck than you do, and because his success is beneficial to my community, and ultimately me, I should help him and get others in the community to help him. Local works better. It always has.


I agree, government and anyone else claiming to 'help' doesn't necessarily actually help (because of wrong intent or ignorance about how to solve the problem, whichever).
Charities have not ended poverty, neither have families.
Besides this is not a family problem or a spiritual problem or whatever you call charity cases. Go look at any major city in America and see how even the police are afraid to help the poor. Government workers don't even know how to deal with them, like you said it is a problem. But it needs to be addressed by the government in an individualist society like ours (it means we leave people to fend for themselves sometimes and call it freedom).




You were thinking about making sense until you contradicted yourself by saying the government system isn't working, then advocating for a government system. The truth is, not all people can be helped. Some will refuse to help themselves. Those individuals, cruel as it may sound, should absolutely fend for themselves. They will either figure it out or they won't. All we can do is reach out and make the effort. The vast majority, however, regardless of their current socioeconomic status, would like to take a few more steps up that ladder and will do whatever it takes to climb that ladder. Most of them simply need to be shown how to succeed. Truly successful people (not to be confused with greedy people of means, because contrary to popular belief, most rich people welcome others at the top) are the ones who teach others to reach their level of success or higher, rather than holding people down. The government not only won't help people get out of poverty, according to the principle of self interest, they can't. If they do, they lose their power base because free people don't need government intervention for their very survival.

Argo's photo
Fri 03/06/15 03:48 AM
the rich welcome no one into their elite club, as that would
only dilute their own share of the fatted calf...

MadDog1974's photo
Fri 03/06/15 03:59 AM
Edited by MadDog1974 on Fri 03/06/15 03:59 AM
That presumes that someone else getting rich means a rich person has to become poor. That's simply not the case. The majority of millionaires are self made and not trust fund babies.

Argo's photo
Fri 03/06/15 04:18 AM
take us backward in time then, back to the turn of the century in 1900 when there were no limits to the power of the rich barons....those who profited from the 16 hour workday of the lowly laborer who toiled at jobs with no insurance, no vacations, no security and no realistic hope of advancement...these were the days of a few making millions off the many economic slaves of that day...if not forced by government or civil revolt the rich will continue to squeeze every drop of blood from every single penny they can get their greedy hands on....it's a case of a small few who have much and a great many who have too little....

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