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| Topic: Is it free speech right or discrimination? | |
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The US Supreme Court is to decide a case of a graphic designer who refused to create wedding websites for same-sex couples. She argues doing this would be forcing her to express a message she does not agree with. However a state law prohibits businesses from refusing service due to sexual orientation. I'm inclined to side with the web designer, what do you think?
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Would you side with her if she refused the entry of black people to her office for example?
It's similar... And a matter of time before this sexual discrimination follows the racial discrimination to the garbage heap of history |
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It's discrimination. If you're going to open a business you need to educate yourself on federal, state and local laws.
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It's discrimination. If you're going to open a business you need to educate yourself on federal, state and local laws. Like the 1st Amendment? 7 rights in that one alone. Let me ask a question. Would you be alright with it, if a government authority forced you to do something that violates your own beliefs? Whatever those may be? Business owners should have the right to refuse service for any reason. What if the client wanted them to promote genocide? How about indentured servitude? Racism against any group? All of those are appalling, right? In my office is a sign stating “We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason.” It’s my business and I have the ability and right to say NO. I don’t have to accept all people with whatever ideas, who walk through my door. It’s also called discretion and/or discernment. Creative Service businesses do not sell a physical product like retail does. We create IP, which involves a contract. A mutual agreement to provide services for compensation. If one side breeches the contract, it becomes void, and one or the other party can try to litigate. If we cannot negotiate the terms of the contract to be mutual, then there is no agreement and neither party can sue. It’s that whole signature part at the end. IMO this case should have never gone all the way up to SCOTUS. As there was obviously no mutual agreement in place. Just hurt feelings of a protected victim class vying for recognition of leveraging a new law. Why couldn’t they find another web designer that didn’t have a problem with their content? Is the creative person the only one in Colorado that does this type of work? Not hardly. But being rational does not make controversy or headlines. |
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Edited by
stan_147
on
Tue 12/06/22 12:09 PM
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Edit: double post
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It's discrimination. If you're going to open a business you need to educate yourself on federal, state and local laws. Like the 1st Amendment? 7 rights in that one alone. Let me ask a question. Would you be alright with it, if a government authority forced you to do something that violates your own beliefs? Whatever those may be? Business owners should have the right to refuse service for any reason. What if the client wanted them to promote genocide? How about indentured servitude? Racism against any group? All of those are appalling, right? In my office is a sign stating “We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason.” It’s my business and I have the ability and right to say NO. I don’t have to accept all people with whatever ideas, who walk through my door. It’s also called discretion and/or discernment. Creative Service businesses do not sell a physical product like retail does. We create IP, which involves a contract. A mutual agreement to provide services for compensation. If one side breeches the contract, it becomes void, and one or the other party can try to litigate. If we cannot negotiate the terms of the contract to be mutual, then there is no agreement and neither party can sue. It’s that whole signature part at the end. IMO this case should have never gone all the way up to SCOTUS. As there was obviously no mutual agreement in place. Just hurt feelings of a protected victim class vying for recognition of leveraging a new law. Why couldn’t they find another web designer that didn’t have a problem with their content? Is the creative person the only one in Colorado that does this type of work? Not hardly. But being rational does not make controversy or headlines. When a business opens doors to the public they open them to everyone on the same terms regardless of race, color, national origin, disability, under many state laws ...sex, sexual orientation gender identity. Even when a business owners religious beliefs motivates to discriminate that doesn’t justify an exemption from our civil rights laws. Providing services doesn’t mean a business owner is approving anyones lifestyle. It jusy means they are following the rules that apply to all of us. |
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No business should have the right to refuse sales or service to anybody. But this should pertain to the goods offered by the retailer. If someone refuses to offer a certain brand or item for sale in their line of goods they offer customers that should be their right…. Maybe this person doesn’t offer that type or web site design in their catalog of web designs. Same as a cake maker may not offer cakes with a graphic decorations. That should be Their right…but it seems their is a double standard being overlooked. Why is it ok for businesses and government entities to discriminate against people refusing to get a vaccine that doesn’t do what we were told it would do…
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Because an unvaccinated person could put others at risk that's why.
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Because an unvaccinated person could put others at risk that's why. A vaccinated person can put others at risk also. So your point is mute. |
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Edited by
Unknow
on
Tue 12/06/22 05:52 PM
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Because an unvaccinated person could put others at risk that's why. A vaccinated person can put others at risk also. So your point is mute. it's not because the reason to refuse service in this instance would be to prevent harm to others and those unvaccinated are not protected in the anti discrimination laws. |
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It's discrimination. If you're going to open a business you need to educate yourself on federal, state and local laws. Like the 1st Amendment? 7 rights in that one alone. Let me ask a question. Would you be alright with it, if a government authority forced you to do something that violates your own beliefs? Whatever those may be? Business owners should have the right to refuse service for any reason. What if the client wanted them to promote genocide? How about indentured servitude? Racism against any group? All of those are appalling, right? In my office is a sign stating “We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason.” It’s my business and I have the ability and right to say NO. I don’t have to accept all people with whatever ideas, who walk through my door. It’s also called discretion and/or discernment. Creative Service businesses do not sell a physical product like retail does. We create IP, which involves a contract. A mutual agreement to provide services for compensation. If one side breeches the contract, it becomes void, and one or the other party can try to litigate. If we cannot negotiate the terms of the contract to be mutual, then there is no agreement and neither party can sue. It’s that whole signature part at the end. IMO this case should have never gone all the way up to SCOTUS. As there was obviously no mutual agreement in place. Just hurt feelings of a protected victim class vying for recognition of leveraging a new law. Why couldn’t they find another web designer that didn’t have a problem with their content? Is the creative person the only one in Colorado that does this type of work? Not hardly. But being rational does not make controversy or headlines. I could not have said it any better then this~~ But~~~most are going on what is within the first post. At times now one has to really take in consideration how that person Advertised their Business. And see that just maybe the lawsuit could have been done under false pretense.. Thinking they had a closed case due to they knew the business would refuse them.. Here is a link to the Web Designer's side of the story and well at this time Congress is seeing her side~~ You will see that she even advertised that she will not create websites that go against her Religious Beliefs.. So tell me again why a gay couple would even want a business to represent them, when they know they do not accept their lifestyle?? https://www.businessinsider.com/supreme-court-hears-challenge-from-designer-who-opposes-creating-same-sex-wedding-sites-2022-12 The 38-year-old is the owner of 303 Creative, a Denver-based graphic design firm that she's been running for more than a decade. Smith highlights her faith on her website and emphasizes that she avoids communicating messages that are "inconsistent with her religious beliefs." |
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It's discrimination. If you're going to open a business you need to educate yourself on federal, state and local laws. Like the 1st Amendment? 7 rights in that one alone. Let me ask a question. Would you be alright with it, if a government authority forced you to do something that violates your own beliefs? Whatever those may be? Business owners should have the right to refuse service for any reason. What if the client wanted them to promote genocide? How about indentured servitude? Racism against any group? All of those are appalling, right? In my office is a sign stating “We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason.” It’s my business and I have the ability and right to say NO. I don’t have to accept all people with whatever ideas, who walk through my door. It’s also called discretion and/or discernment. Creative Service businesses do not sell a physical product like retail does. We create IP, which involves a contract. A mutual agreement to provide services for compensation. If one side breeches the contract, it becomes void, and one or the other party can try to litigate. If we cannot negotiate the terms of the contract to be mutual, then there is no agreement and neither party can sue. It’s that whole signature part at the end. IMO this case should have never gone all the way up to SCOTUS. As there was obviously no mutual agreement in place. Just hurt feelings of a protected victim class vying for recognition of leveraging a new law. Why couldn’t they find another web designer that didn’t have a problem with their content? Is the creative person the only one in Colorado that does this type of work? Not hardly. But being rational does not make controversy or headlines. I could not have said it any better then this~~ But~~~most are going on what is within the first post. At times now one has to really take in consideration how that person Advertised their Business. And see that just maybe the lawsuit could have been done under false pretense.. Thinking they had a closed case due to they knew the business would refuse them.. Here is a link to the Web Designer's side of the story and well at this time Congress is seeing her side~~ You will see that she even advertised that she will not create websites that go against her Religious Beliefs.. So tell me again why a gay couple would even want a business to represent them, when they know they do not accept their lifestyle?? https://www.businessinsider.com/supreme-court-hears-challenge-from-designer-who-opposes-creating-same-sex-wedding-sites-2022-12 The 38-year-old is the owner of 303 Creative, a Denver-based graphic design firm that she's been running for more than a decade. Smith highlights her faith on her website and emphasizes that she avoids communicating messages that are "inconsistent with her religious beliefs." ...looks like someone saw an opporitunity. |
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Thank you~~ See that is the way I took it after finding out that she made it clear on her Website what her Religion Beliefs were..
I was like well hell why in the heck would they even approach her to do their Wedding Website knowing she did not approve of their Life Style?? But it does help if the OP gives a link and a bit more about the story.. in order to form an opinion. I know I would not go to someone that only paints pictures of animals and ask them to paint my picture.. So if they refuse can I sue them??? |
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So what you’re telling me is I have to accept all jobs, from anyone, regardless of whether or not I accept the terms of the contract?
Lol. I wonder if the satanist that I threw out of my office will sue me now. I didn’t agree with the terms he required and would not proceed with the contract. Told him I wasn’t interested in his project and suggested he try another shop. It wasn’t based on any of the items you listed, but solely on whether or not I wanted that job. Then there were some Nazi types, whom I also told I wasn’t interested. Also suggesting they try another shop. Maybe I should call my attorney just in case. Lol |
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Just because you post a sign or make a statement up front doesn't excuse you from federal/state laws. You can refuse service to anyone but thanks to anti discrimination laws you can't for any old reason. Doing so makes you vulnerable unfortunately.
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It hasn’t in 38 years. Regardless of whatever law, I simply cannot be forced to accept terms of any contract. Perhaps you should look at what goes into a contract, and what specifically lawyers put into these things.
Contracted services are way different than retail sales, the key being the negotiated terms of the contract. Until it’s signed by both parties, it doesn’t legally exist. Just walking into my office doesn’t immediately grant you access to my skills and equipment. BOTH parties have to agree, by signing whatever is written in the document. Being told that the company is not interested in the project is NOT discriminatory. I’d have been sued thousands of times if that were true. And I don’t have to explain why, to anyone. I could be overbooked or ready to go on vacation or any other reason. No explanation needed or given. Just because you don’t understand how this type of business is conducted and there is a shiny new law, does not negate the rights of independent businesses or their owners. Contract law is a very specific thing. If the web designer signed a contract and so did the plaintiffs, they are both bound legally to the terms MUTUALLY agreed upon. Simply put, no signatures = no contract. |
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Edited by
Blondey111
on
Tue 12/06/22 10:26 PM
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The US Supreme Court is to decide a case of a graphic designer who refused to create wedding websites for same-sex couples. She argues doing this would be forcing her to express a message she does not agree with. However a state law prohibits businesses from refusing service due to sexual orientation. I'm inclined to side with the web designer, what do you think? “Where a religious or belief organisation is excluding persons of a particular sexual orientation from its membership or participation in its activities, or its provision of goods, facilities and services. This only applies to organisations whose purpose is to practice, promote or teach a religion or belief, whose sole or main purpose is not commercial. The restrictions they impose must be necessary either to comply with the doctrine of the organisation, or to avoid conflict with the ‘strongly held religious convictions’ of the religion’s followers” She has some control over which projects she accepts but under human rights law she cannot advertise or use someone’s sexual orientation as a reason to exclude them from her services . You ask if it is freedom of speech or discrimination ..,it is discrimination . Freedom of speech has legal limitations and boundaries . “The Human Rights Act 1993 prohibits speech that incites racial disharmony and prohibits discrimination against a person because of an aspect of their identity. “ identity refers also to sexual identity/orientation . |
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Edited by
SparklingCrystal 💖💎
on
Wed 12/07/22 03:46 AM
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Would you side with her if she refused the entry of black people to her office for example? It's similar... And a matter of time before this sexual discrimination follows the racial discrimination to the garbage heap of history I was going to say the exact same thing. Replace 'same sex couple' with 'people of other ethnicity or skin colour", would you then still feel the same? If they let a graphic designer get away with this the country will also have to allow others to do the same. Think of doctors, nurses, universities, schools, supermarkets, clothes shops, airlines, Starbucks etc. etc. They all will then have the same right to refuse to serve people based on their sexual orientation. That's going back to Medieval times. No way should she be allowed to do this and open the door to more of this ridiculous stuff to occur. |
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Would you side with her if she refused the entry of black people to her office for example? It's similar... And a matter of time before this sexual discrimination follows the racial discrimination to the garbage heap of history I was going to say the exact same thing. Replace 'same sex couple' with 'people of other ethnicity or skin colour", would you then still feel the same? If they let a graphic designer get away with this the country will also have to allow others to do the same. Think of doctors, nurses, universities, schools, supermarkets, clothes shops, airlines, Starbucks etc. etc. They all will then have the same right to refuse to serve people based on their sexual orientation. That's going back to Medieval times. No way should she be allowed to do this and open the door to more of this ridiculous stuff to occur. As I mentioned above, it's just a matter of time, and some civil development. sixty years ago we would have exactly the same conversation. Just substitute (Sex) with (color). But I am certain that it won't take that long to have sexual discrimination end in the same place where racial discrimination ended, garbage. It's gonna take less than a decade, maybe much less in the civilized world. It's just funny to see homophobes among people who stand against racism. Hypocrisy at its best |
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But it does help if the OP gives a link and a bit more about the story.. in order to form an opinion. Moderator, Isn't the businessinsider news article you gave a link to, sufficient for you to say whether you agree with the web designer's argument or not? |
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