Some fundamentalist christians preach that the only thing required to be saved is to believe that Christ is the Lord and Savior. That and anything else.
That means, as many fundamentalist churchs do when they have a new convert: this person goes in the middle of the assembly and says the prayer of acceptance of the Lord, and boom this individual is saved instantly.
IN SAYING THIS I'M NOT DENYING THAT JESUS IS MY LORD AND SAVIOR.
What I'm pointing out is that seems very irrational that the only fact of saying a prayer and only that will save an individual.
So let's say this person says the prayer and keeps living a life full of lies, envy, hate, etc., still this person will be saved.
Honestly, for me that is a lot of BS.
To go further this people who have said the prayer, and start reading the bible and making fundamentalist interpretations. Such as thinking that because the rest of the people who have not said the prayer are damned, and are going to hell.
People who just because they call themselves christians they think they belong to a special class of people, yet they don't live as real christians.
Faith is not enough. Faith must be combined with deeds.
If I don't love my brothers and sisters as I love myself, and I call myself a christian, I'm the biggest HYPOCRYTE AND BIGOT.
The Bible can't be used as a text book with series of rules with which people judge other people. The Bible is a book for personal inquiry. Meaning I have to use it for my own growing as a person, and not to judge my brothers and sisters.

TLW

Who are your brothers and sisters?
Why did Jesus die?

Ephesians 2:8,9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Jesus said "ye must be born again", and that involves repentance as well as faith.

Peace, Love, Joy

beautiful, just the example I needed to make my point.

Christians don't believe that, fundamentalist or not. Jesus said "Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?". If someone claims to be saved, but produces bad fruits, then that person is not saved. Christians are being attacked from all sides, thread after thread here attacks the foundation of Christianity and questions such accepted facts as Jesus' birth father. I think that Christians should stick together and stop attacking one another. I could go into what I believe are obvious flaws in Catholic doctrine, but I won't. It wouldn't do anything but cause hard feelings. If you believe that salvation can't come from just accepting Jesus, fine. If you want to debate that, then fine. But do so with a spirit of peace and don't come out bashing other Christians simply cause their interpretation is different.

Is Salvation an Act or a Process?

By Kenneth J. Howell

CATHOLIC: It seems that many non-Catholics in America misunderstand the Catholic doctrine of salvation. They think that the Church teaches salvation by works as if Catholics were trying to earn their way to heaven. This frustrates knowledgeable Catholics because we know that the Church does not teach salvation by our own good works.

OBJECTOR: Perhaps the reason is that we hear this view from so many Catholics. When we ask them how they hope to go to heaven, they tell us that if they are good, they hope they will be in heaven with God for eternity. But I do know better. I know the Catholic Church teaches salvation by grace coming from God through faith in Christ.

CATHOLIC: I am so glad to hear you say that.

OBJECTOR: Nevertheless, I still think that the Church compromises the true gospel of Jesus Christ by its belief that salvation is a process rather than a one-time act of God. In essence, the Catholic doctrine is semi-Pelagian. It believes that salvation is a cooperation between God and man in which man plays at least as important a role as God does.

CATHOLIC: We believe that salvation is a process by which we come closer to God throughout our whole life as we participate in the sacraments and the grace that comes through them. But it is not true that man plays as important a role as God. God the Father planned our salvation, not man. God the Son gained our salvation by his death and resurrection; no one else did these things. And God the Holy Spirit infused the very love of God into our hearts by his presence (cf. Rom. 5:5). This is beyond our human ability. Still, we must cooperate with God’s grace to find eternal happiness with God. If we don’t, we will be cut off from God forever. In contrast, Semi-Pelagianism is only a weakened form of Pelagianism, which taught that a person could save himself. To be a semi-Pelagian is to believe that we could save ourselves but God just helps us to make it easier.

OBJECTOR: But that seems to me to be exactly what the Catholic Church teaches when it says that we must work with God to achieve our salvation. It takes glory away from God the Savior.

CATHOLIC: No, the Church teaches that only God can save us. If that weren’t true, then Christ died for nothing. All that we do is respond with faith and obedience to God’s offer of grace in Christ. We insist that this is a lifelong commitment that should grow over time. God’s grace grows within us as we trust in God more and follow his commandments. The final outcome of a life of faith and obedience is eternal life with God.

OBJECTOR: What you describe sounds like a compromise. How can salvation be a process when Acts 16:31 says, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved"? Paul affirms this same decisive act of salvation in Romans 10:9: "If you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."

CATHOLIC: The Church affirms the teaching of these texts. They are calling us to decisive trust in Christ. We affirm that trust in Christ is essential to salvation. But are faith in and confession of Christ a one-time event, or are faith and verbal confession necessary for one’s entire life? We believe the Bible teaches that one cannot just profess faith once and then be eternally secure, as it were. One must live out this faith by a life of obedience and good works.

OBJECTOR: Anyone who takes the Bible seriously must affirm that obedience and works flow from true faith. What is objectionable is that the Catholic faith confuses faith and works by making both of them necessary for salvation.

CATHOLIC: Wouldn’t you say that works are necessary? Doesn’t James 2:17 teach that faith without works is dead?

OBJECTOR: Of course works are necessary as evidence that the faith of the person believing is real and genuine, but that is different from believing, as the Catholic faith teaches, that works play an essential role in our final salvation. The root of the problem with Catholic teaching is that it confuses justification and sanctification by seeing salvation as a process that lasts one’s lifetime.

CATHOLIC: We do believe that works are evidence of true faith, but that is not the only role they play. Works also play a role in our final justification. If we take Paul’s statements about Abraham being justified by faith in Galatians 3:6 and Romans 4:3–4 and put them together with James’s statement about Abraham being justified by his work of offering up Isaac in James 2:21, we rightly conclude that salvation is a process with many points of justification along the path to heaven.

OBJECTOR: That cannot be right, because justification is an act of God’s grace. This means that God justifies us when we believe in Christ. He declares us righteous for Christ’s sake, not because of our own merits. James is saying that Abraham’s offering of Isaac was a work that justified his faith. Sanctification or the pursuit of holiness is essential to prove our faith but it is not what saves us. Christ saves us!

CATHOLIC: But sanctification is Christ actively saving us! You say that Abraham’s work of offering up Isaac justified his faith as being real. But James 2:21 asks, "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?" From this James concludes in verse 22: "You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works." This language of "active along with" and works "completing" faith is the language of cooperation.

OBJECTOR: I agree that we must cooperate with God in our sanctification because it is a process that lasts a lifetime. But sanctification is not what really saves us. What saves us is the merits of Christ being credited to our account. This "credit exchange" takes place in justification, an act of God’s grace that occurs when we believe in Christ and trust him completely.

CATHOLIC: We agree that justification begins the Christian life. The Catechism of the Catholic Church calls baptism the sacrament of justification because in it all our previous sins are forgiven (cf. CCC 1266, 1992). And as I implied above, acts of justification or forgiveness may occur at many points in our lives. For example, when a priest declares a sinner forgiven in confession, this is an act of justification. We insist that many justifications take place in our lives as we journey toward heaven. These acts of justification are necessary for our growth in holiness or sanctification.

OBJECTOR: Well, as I said, the Catholic Church muddies the waters of salvation by its conflation and confusion of justification and sanctification. This makes our salvation depend on our degree of personal holiness. But because our growth in holiness cannot ever be complete in this life, we can never know whether we will be saved or not. That shows that the Catholic view cannot be true, because the New Testament is full of assurance of salvation. One of the more well-known verses is 1 John 5:13.

CATHOLIC: We think that many Christians seriously misread the New Testament when it comes to the assurance of salvation. Though we can’t examine many texts on assurance right now, I can say that 1 John 5:13 has been ripped out of its context in John’s letter. If you examine chapters 4 and 5 of this small letter carefully, you will see that "this" refers to acts of love of neighbor, love of God, holding to orthodox teaching, and so on. In other words, John is not giving a blank check for assurance of heaven. He is giving a conclusion of a long list of indicators by which a person can know he is saved. John agrees with James. Good works give a relative assurance that one is in good standing with God.

OBJECTOR: Maybe you have a point on 1 John, but making our salvation dependent on a certain degree of personal holiness is wrong, because it transfers our trust from Christ to ourselves.

CATHOLIC: I don’t see that the pursuit of holiness in any way takes our trust away from Christ and puts it in ourselves. It seems to me that Hebrews makes it very clear that without holiness "no one will see the Lord" (Heb. 12:14). Why would the author say this? Because God is holy and, if we’re going to live with God forever, we too must be holy. So our entire life should be a pursuit of the holiness that Christ gained for us by his death on the cross. God desires to put this holiness within us, or as Hebrews 12:10 says, "that we may share his holiness." That is the ultimate rationale behind the Catholic view of salvation: to share in the holiness of God. Nothing less will save us!

spider

tlw

jesus on a cereal box

James 2.

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works?
can faith save him?

If a brother or a sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled ;

notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body ; what doth it profit?


Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works :

shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew you my faith by my works.





But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?




For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Luke 16: 59-60.

And he said unto another, Follow me. But he said, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.

Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead :
but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

jesus clothing lines and perfumes for sale...



just Ebay it

Walker..... God KNOWS the Heart .
God knows when someone Believed by FAITH ....and MEANT it or not .... when he confessed Jesus as Lord with his mouth.

See... a person has to MEAN it in His heart ALSO, when he confesses Jesus as Lord......otherwise they are just empty words.
Lip service only.

And if it was lip service only, there will be no fruits showing that true salvation took place in that person's life....simply because it didn't.

The bible says, "We shall know them by their fruits".

But also Walker.... you have to remember...... just because a christian is Saved, doesn't mean he automatically becomes perfect, or MATURE overnight, in his christian walk.

A new born babe in christ is just that... a babe....on pablum...poo-pooing in his spiritual diapers.....so don't expect a baby christian to act like a full grown mature christian.

Eventually though, the baby christian will start to show fruit, as he grows up and matures in the Lord.

But let's say.... a man says he is a christian , and supposedly has been a christian for 20 years, but there are no fruits evident in his life.
Then it is highly unlikely that man was ever saved at all.

Walker, also....the church is actually supposed to be a hospital for sick souls.

Meaning...
Christians might be SAVED IN THEIR SPIRIT, BUT THEIR SOULISH AREAS NEED TO STILL BE RE-NEWED WITH THE WORD OF GOD.
DAILY!!

Walker....Although a Christian is Saved and Born again in his spirit, he still has that same old stinking Thinking going on in his SOULISH area, that needs daily renewing with the Word of God!!

And that is the Christians Job, not God's, to eat and feed his spirit daily , with the Word of God , so that his SOUL area ALSO may be re-newed .

BUT....if The soulish area of a born again christian is NOT being renewed, then that christian is going to still act like the world sometimes...even though he is truly saved.

But as that christian grows, he will outgrow the pablum, and outgrow his diapers and WILL hunger MORE for the the Word...and will be able to move on eventuially to prime rib steak and potatoes...and as he grows..the fruits will become more and more evident in His life ,as he matures more and more.

But of course,you will always meet those who have been christians for 20 years or more... and are still on pablum...still in the nursey...still poopooing in their spiritual diapers.
Never grew up .

Point being, There is immaturity, even among christians.
That is why it is always best to keep our eyes fixed on Jesus, and not man.
Cause God ain't done with any of us .
He is the One that does the Perfecting of the Saints, not us.

So Walker, if you run into christians , who are acting immature?
Don't allow it to upset you....just smile... love em anyway....cause God ain't done with them...just like God ain't done with you or me..or any of us.

As Christians, Let Us Just Stay Focused on the Lord...and Keep Our Hearts Full of Love...
Towards All Mankind .

When we do that, how others act or don't act, won't matter anyway.
Cause We Will be too busy just Loving one other , to even see each others faults.

Well now I'm confused...I never thought for one minute that this person believes in God Jehovah or His word.

Most of the time this person make no sense at all. all he likes to do is bash what he has no understanding of... in the name of God???

Quickstepper, Walker is my brother in Christ, and Loves the Lord with ALLLL his heart.

God knows his heart, NOT you, Quickstepperr.

Some of the most beautiful christians I know ,are catholics.
They may have some different doctrines, but the most important thing to remember is ...they STILL BELIEVE IN AND ACCEPT JESUS AS THEIR LORD.

Now there are pew warmers in every chuch , who are NOT saved....but Walker is not one of them.
Walker is as Saved as I am.

Be Blessed Now.

another beautiful example to make my point.

If your brother sins again you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

Dear MorningSong:

All these is correct as far as I understand.
I can understand the "born again" concept, and the fact that people are just learning how to walk.
In the measure their faith and knowledge grows obviously their attitudes tend to change as well. In other words through the actions of the Holy Spirit we become more like the Lord Jesus Christ, and therefore, we get closer to the Father.
However, in this thread I was referring specificly to those so called "christians" who are suppose to have the knowledge, and have grown in their faith, and they still use christianity and the Bible as means to preach fear and hate.
If christinity were just that believe me I would be the first non-christian. Since I know christianity goes beyond the fundamentalist approach is why I remain a christian.
These fundamentalist individuals are the reason why christianity is being attacked over and over again from every side.
To be fair I have to point out the Catholic Church, the reason is being under attack as well is because of non-educated catholics who are easy prey for evangelistics and atheists. People who don't have the knowledge in order to stand firm in what they believe.
So, it's ok to be born again, but it's the individual responsability to grow beyond.
And basically understand the meaning of CHARITY which is the perfect love. The love which allows me to see the Lord in pagans, atheists, pantheists, etc. Thus, I won't be preaching things like they are evil and they are going to hell because I'm not even sure if I'm actually going to Heaven.
Salvation is not a one instant thing, Salvation is a process which last the whole life the individual with faith.

TLW

seems if it were "good deeds" as defined by ANY INTERPRETATION of what "good deeds" or "works" be, then only a possible evil, bad, rebellios, hypocritical, selfish, self seeking, arrogant, prideful, non-obeying, no honor of parents, uncivil, unloving, pretentious, bigotted, awful person would not bury their own family with love...........

seems the interpretation of "works" be the deception, as this bely judgment of the heart of another, which lead to damnation of one self by breaking one of the greatest commandments, and certainally any that don't bury their own dead break the greatest commandment of "loving thy neighbor as thyself", as they have not even loved their own family, let alone their neighbors.........peace

"Stop judging, that you may not be judged. For as you judge, so will you be judged, and the measure with which you measure will be measured out to you. Why do you notice the splinter in your brother's eye, but do not perceive the wooden beam in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me remove that splinter from your eye,' while the wooden beam is in your eye? You hypocrite, remove the wooden beam from your eye first; then you will see clearly to remove the splinter from your brother's eye. (Mateo (NAB) 7)

You do realize that I was quoting Jesus, right? Matthew 18:15 to be exact. Do you think that Jesus contradicted himself between these two verses?

Absolutely, not. He was affirming Himself.
But one thing is correcting with love (which few christians do), another is judging with hate (as a lot of us do).