Why is it that the ppl who are most "opposed" to religion are the most,
shall I say this delicately, "Obnoxious" about it? I really wanted to
hear about YOUR faith, and why it works for YOU. I didnt want to listen
to someone p1ss all over someone else's viewpoint.

I like debates, I like controversial topics, I like ping-ponging "my
fact beats up your fact". But, damn, there's alot of angry ppl on these
threads. Seems like just discussing religon stirs up alot of
hard-feelings in people.

So, for the record, why are many of you so angry at religions? I can
certainly understand someone being annoyed/angered by the sterotypical
types: Ultra-Orthodox Rabbinical Nuts, Dollar$ for Je$u$ Preachers,
Islam-Fascist Imams, etc. But, I havnt seen many of them here.

Many ppl seem to be angered by the idea that a religion "tells you what
to do, or not to do". I understand where that thought originates, but, I
dont think anyone here really supports that idea. In fact, I would say
that a follower of a given faith is guided by what they WANT to do, not
what they "HAVE" to do. I profess christianity as a guide for ME, not
for you. Again, I think thats how most ppl are on this site.

But, am I missing something? Whats the reason for the real pissed
off'd-ness of many theads? Seriously, let loose, whats it all about?
[Feel free to email me directly if you'd like MikeMonana@Hotmail.com ]

It's not just on this forum, Mike. Check out the "real world", so to
speak. That fiasco about the pledge of allegience- although, to be fair,
that's one where the anti-religious sort has a remote argument.

Not long ago, there was a big fuss to remove an artistic sculpture of
the 10 commandments from a courthouse. Not to mention, every holiday
that rolls around, some sad little group or another throws a fit.

They seem to like to think that since they're not a "religion", that
they can get away with doing everything they claim religions do- force
their beliefs on others, belittle those who disagree, and ignore every
reason why people disagree with their beliefs and actions.


I don't know why they choose to do this, but since it happens in the
world of flesh and blood, should it come as any surprise that it visits
upon the world of cyberspace?

MikeMontana wrote:
“But, am I missing something? Whats the reason for the real pissed
off'd-ness of many theads? Seriously, let loose, whats it all about?”

I try my very best not to lose patience or temper when discussing
religious ideas. I used to be much less tolerant than I used to be when
I was younger.

I think the real answer to your question ultimately comes down to
‘formal establishments’ and really had very little to do with ‘personal’
opinions.

For example, I am extremely bitter toward all forms of Christianity and
even closely related religions like Judaism and Islam. My bitterness
toward these religious dogmas has absolutely nothing to do with anyone
who believes in these religions on a personal level.

However these religions breed ignorance. That’s a well-established
historical fact. These religions have pitted many people against
intellectual inquiry throughout the ages. And so I despise these
religions for their negative affect on the human intellectual spirit.

In the early days these religions held that the earth was at the center
of the universe and that everything centered on the earth and
in-particular on humans which were depicted as God’s ultimate purpose.
God has a purpose for everyone, and the earth was created for humans to
have domain over. Everything else was created for the sake of humans.

When intelligent people made observations that suggested this picture
was necessarily incorrect these religions persecuted those intellectuals
in many cases actually burning them at a stake. But the intellectual
observation finally could not be denied. Eventually these religions
had to accept the truth, yet it didn’t deter them from continuing on.

This happen time and time again with almost every intellectual discovery
ever made. Intellectual people were constantly having to deal with the
ignorance of these religious dogmas all the way up to, and including our
modern era. It’s completely unfathomable to me how people can continue
to cling to such nonsense in the light of intellectual discover. Even
today religious people denounce things like the discovery of evolution
in favor of these archaic out-dated disprove dogmas.

So I personally have a very bitter view of these ignorant dogmas that
continue to blind people from intelligent inquire and discovery. I see
them as truly a bad thing like a mental disease.

And it’s not just the technical discoveries, but they continue to cling
to the whole Santa Claus in the sky picture. That god is an external
thing and that the real goal is to get to heaven, etc.

I hate that myth because it cases people to focus on a fictitious heaven
instead of THIS LIFE.

It also causes people to become extremely egotistical in that everything
is just between them and god on a personal level. Those religions have
actually caused people to believe that separate from everyone else and
they look at their brethren from the point of view of ‘every man for
himself’. If you aren’t square with god you’ll go to hell and that’s
just too frigg’in back because you must deserve it! That’s the kind of
unloving uncaring, uncompassionate attitudes that these religions
foster.

This is why I hate them so.

So when I see people supporting them and preaching them, or using them
to based their supposedly ‘intellectual arguments’, it just makes me
want to throw up. And yes, it makes me angry, not at the poor soul
who’s falling for it, but at the religions themselves.

So the anger isn’t really directed at the people who believe in these
religions, it’s actually directed at the religions for having corrupted
those believers in the first place.

I absolutely hate Christianity and all similar religions. I see them as
a plague on the human spirit. A mental disease that needs to be
eradicated so that people can finally see the truth of the universe for
what it really is, and what they really are.

I’m not saying that there is no ‘god’, or that there is no spiritual
element to the universe. I most certainly believe that there is. But
it’s not the dogmatic external Santa Claus in the sky. If the universe
has a spiritual element then so do we because we rose up out of the
universe. This is what intellectual discovery has revealed to us.
This is what the real living spirit of the universe has revealed to us.

I also would like to add that while I completely support the moral
teachings of Jesus Christ, I’d like to point out that many other men
throughout history taught the same morals. Some via other religions,
and some via pure philosophy. Had I been alive when Jesus was
preaching all I would have kept saying to him is, “I agree, I agree, I
agree”. The teaching of Jesus does not imply the rest of the beliefs
that go with Christianity. I personally believe that if Jesus was
alive today he would completely denounce the religion that carries his
name and say, “No no no! You’ve completely misunderstood what I was
trying to say!”

So my anger toward these religions has absolutely nothing to do with
people’s “personal beliefs’. It’s NOT their personal belief. They
didn’t make it up. It was taught to basically in a form of
brainwashing.

So yes, I’m angered that so many people have allowed themselves to be
brainwashed by these ancient misguided myths that have been disproved
over an over and over again.

And I thank you Mike for allowing me to get that off my chest in a
non-personal manner. Although I'm sure many religious people will take
it as a personal insult just the same.

And that's what makes it so sad.

Angry? Peed off? Nope not yet, usually if it appears that I am getting
angry, it shows by the scorch marks on the edges of my post...and then
shortly after I disappear....

so I don't do that anymore, and really, what's the point?

I can try to see from another's point of veiw, which is personal to
them, and as long as I am given the same respect, I am happy to be
involved and share my thoughts.

When my personal beliefs are over ridden, or even dismissed, as
irrelevant, I tend to get a little 'shirty', and bite back, not a good
way to be, and am attempting to shift that mentality, and not allow
myself to sit in ego...

I only get p....d off with people that claim their religion, or believes
or churches are the only ones that count. I'm a free spirit, I watch and
try to see the good in everything. Somebody
claiming his religion is the one and only right one makes me suspicious.

You know, abra- more oppression has been done in the name of atheistic
removal of religion than in the total of all religions on earth.
Examples include every communist nation on earth. If you can blame
religion for the death tolls done in "religious" wars.... I can blame
athiesm for Stalin's reign. And "red" china.


But of course, every fool knows that atheism isn't responsible for
those events. Just like religions aren't responsible for the crimes
sometimes committed in the guise of religion. It's just the way the
cards play. Either both count, or neither.

i can blow a couple of notes on a bugle im pissed off like you
wouldent beleive, can ya beleive it im cause i wish i could blow my
own trumpet i dont even own a tin whistle ill box on
reguardless

Poetnartist wrote:
“You know, abra- more oppression has been done in the name of atheistic
removal of religion than in the total of all religions on earth.”

And so why have you addressed this to me? I’m not an atheist?

Poetnartists wrote:
“But of course, every fool knows that atheism isn't responsible for
those events. Just like religions aren't responsible for the crimes
sometimes committed in the guise of religion.”

I also never suggested that religions are responsible for crimes that
are committed in the guise of religion.

If you’re going to address me at least address something that I actually
said.

Abra that was beautifully stated. Thank you!
Mike I am not po'd at religion but i sure got a real dose of back hills
thinking when i moved from the west coast to "bible thumpin country".
you see Mike if your a single mom with a "child out of wedlock"..well
now! that makes ya'll nothin but a heathen, hussie, FLOOOOOZIE, but of
course the good sunday go to meetin HYPOCRITS who bump those gums with
that rubbish just tend to FORGET that their OWN youngins were shall we
say ILLEGITIMATE and for some they dont even know "who's yer
daddy?" BIG SIGH! I do not believe i
should have to pay a building or a back hills preacher man with some
twisted version of HIS RELIGIOUS BELIEFS. Trust me, I have one of the
most notorious "snake handlin churches" right up the road from my front
door. Now that is a concept hey? I dont knock anyone for their religious
beliefs but i do NOT SUPPORT anyone who can actually sit back and judge
me for my personal beliefs with religion.
Thanks for letting me vent!

Thank you Barbie,

I made way too many typos in it though. I wish I would have proofread
it before posting it.

I'm sure it could have been stated more diplomatically too. I just kind
of spit it out there pretty quick.

James...i had to reactivate my profile just to say >>>>>>>>>>>>>



I LOVE YOU!...i guess after all these years and all the **** we've bee
thru...i have to confess...you rock!
i am in love. that was so beautifully written and delivered...i am
sitting here thoroughly enthralled!!

sigh! :o)


you have just made my month! and it was a pretty cool birthday present
as well! ( although unbeknown to you)


THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WHERE'S THE LITTLE
CHEERLEADER!??? yayyyyyyyyyyy!!!!!!




peace

alex

o by the way.....James



you ........... are beautiful

Mike,

Please address 'abracadabra's' message.

The opportunity of pertinent and intelligent exchanges, set within the
type of context you've proposed here Mike, is rare to say the least.

IMO, the two of you are at the 'objective' core of this GREAT question
you've raised Mike.

You hold a discourse on one genuine and 'open minded' side of the coin,
and 'abracadabra' holds the other.

It doesn't matter who's right or wrong here, who wins or loses. It's not
about that. And neither of you two, IMO, are attached to those petty
concepts.

The exchange between you two, in itself, I suspect would be insightful
and might reveal some interesting instructions for all.

Whichever side of the coin we each favor, we're only whole 'IN' the coin
anyway. No coin, no sides!!! I invite the two of you to exchange! and
set the 'tone' of this great discussion.

In advance, whether you accept or decline the invitation, thanks for the
generous 'open minded' context Mike, and thanks for your vibrant
'sharing' 'abracadabra'.

Mike -- here's one guy's take on it:

I am an atheist, and it took me years (literally) of research to get
there.

My best friend is a devout Christian.

During my researches, I had read the Bible, cover to cover, seven times.
Because I am so familiar with the material, my friend often asks me to
help him find particular verses, topics, etc., in the Bible.

And I am happy to help him out.

I'm not above razzing him a little, and giving him a hard time, and
prodding him with questions like "If you want to devote your life to a
fictional character, why not Superman? He has a better costume," or
something of that nature.

And he just smiles and keeps reading.

But the point is this: I have a belief. I don't know that it's true.
I suspect it is; everything I've experienced points in that direction.

He has a belief. It is not (really could not be) based on the same
things my belief is based on. He is pretty confident within his own
belief system, but readily admits he doesn't actually know for sure.

So our situation is that we both have beliefs and we both admit we don't
really know anything for certain. It allows for a great deal of
hypotheticals and conjectures and guesswork and formulations and
psudobabble on both sides.

And because neither one of us comes with the attitude "I am right and
eveyone else is wrong!" we have a lot fo fun with it.

And we both learn stuff, too.

Those who have posted in reply to your question are among those most
passionate about the religious debate. Not to be left out, of this
catagory I feel compelled to write my own response.

In my opinion:

I know that there are many people in this world, I know that they all
have to find ways of coping with all that life throws their way. Some,
deal with way more hardship than others. I, personally, see relition as
a safety net. Once the belief is established it becomes a thing to
protect, to be possessive of, because it creates peace of mind. To have
a place, even if it's just in your mind, in your personal communion with
what you see as devine, that offers hope when none seems available
anywhere, that brings calm when the last straw seems about to be added,
to have an explanation even if it's only that "God wills it and I have
faith in his power and reasoning". This is what poeple protect.

When another steps in and states a case that put that safety net in
peril, there is a sudden rush to defend it, and defend it with passion.
These people don't really want to see what lay beneath the safety net,
it could be hell. I have had discussions with such poeple, those who
were confused by the information I gave them, who suddenly became
worried that they did not have answers that would keep their net in
tact. I have seen a couple begin to sweat and one cried. They all
sought council within their church group and when they returned to me
with their supportive reasoning against my information, I could see the
peace had returned to their face, they had mended their safety net. I
did not continue my discourse with them and in a real world face to face
when I can see the affect of my conversations, I stop.

It is not for me to change the beliefs of these people, doing so puts
their emotional security at risk. This is why I prefer to plant seeds
of knowledge. Seeds that have the ability to grow into a desire to know
more to learn more. These seeds, while usually in the form of a
question, have a basis is science. If any chooses to explore that
realm, chooses to grow they have a seed to begin with.

The controvery comes in when we bring civil law and social morals into
the conversation. This is when the "what I believe" passion begins.

We need to have these kinds of passionate discussions, we need to built
a tough hide of both sides, based on knowledge and understanding of both
sides. We need this because at some point THIS society, THE world
society has to change, we have to take the "what I believe" out of out
civil code and leave moral ethics to those who choose to live them
according to their faith, not according to society as a whole.

Well MikeMontana,

I still invite you to address 'abracadabra's' message,
still without obligation, and I would kindly ask that you also address
'Lex.', 'Red.', and, just for her unique and colourfully candid and
hearfelt style, 'Barbie.'.

I must admit this is one the most civil, clear, sincere, consistent from
poster to poster, and brillantly articulated post I've visited so far.
With your feedback 'MikeM', there is the potential of a solid and
objective exchange here.

As an interlude,
Science with a philosophical twist!


" The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound
truth may very well be another profound truth."

NIELS BOHR, Nobel Prize, physics laureates, 1922.

While one profoundly believes in something, and holds this belief as the
profound truth for himself or herself,
the opposite of this profound truth cannot, at the same time, be true
for that same person.

On the other hand, another person, holding another profound truth for
himself or herself, is equally legitimate in his or her belief.

Science and life itself (from my observation, not religion), teaches us
we might be 'condemned' to truly and sincerely accept and learn to
appreciate each other's ethical and moral 'profound truths'.

Conversing, exchanging, and allowing our 'profound truths' to co-exist
as a gift, without any sense of suspicion, threat, or loss.

This might be what is going on here, right now, on this post!!!

Posted this quote in a 'CURRENT NEWS AND EVENTS' post, in relation to
US athletic officials with the US Olympic Committee, having initiated
discussions with Iran, Syria and Lebanon about co-training of athletes
at US facilities.

Funny how I thought this quote applying to highly sensitive
international politics, applies just as much if not more to this
‘RELIGION CHAT’ post. Actually, not funny at all!!!

" In the century now dawning, spirituality, visionary consciousness, and
the ability to build and mend human relationships will be more important
for the fate and safety of this nation (AND ALL NATIONS) than our
capacity to forcefully subdue an enemy.
Creating the world we want is a much more subtle but more powerful mode
of operation than destroying the one we don't want. "

Marianne Williamson,
(born 8 July 1952 in Houston, Texas, U.S.) [1][2] is a spiritual
activist, author, lecturer and founder of the The Peace Alliance, a
grass roots campaign supporting legislation currently before Congress to
establish a United States Department of Peace.


*** A DEPARTMENT OF PEACE *** Utopia???

sigh

If only people would quit throwing intellectual crap in....I don't care
what is written in any book...some human hand wrote it which does not
make it so! I use common sense and follow my heart. I do not get angry
at other peoples beliefs but I do get angry when someone tells me my
belief is wrong then start quoting from some book. I don't mind
discussing religion in a reasonable manner just don't try shoving your
books and beliefs down my throat.

There is something the philosopher Emmanuel Kant said, it's a pity that
I don't get it together properly as it is a good long while since I
learned it in school, and some might get lost in translation.

Everybody is entitled to live after his own maxim, as long as it does
not disturb or hurt the maxim of others.

Isn't that nearly the same?