I don’t turn to religion for morals.

The only purpose I would have to read the Bible would be to discover the
nature of god. I have read it for that purpose and found it to be a
logically inconsistent and irrational explanation of god.

Therefore, since I don’t believe that the creator of this universe would
be logically inconsistent or irrational I can’t accept the picture of
god put forth by that book.

So I no longer have any interest in it.

There are plenty of non-religious books with great moral stories in
them. For me personally morals have always seemed to be common sense.
I hardly need a religion to know what’s right and wrong.

for most of us just a decorative item.
for those who are committed the bible is a set of guidelines to live
life in accordance of what the Heavenly Father desires for the human
being.

How short minded are we as human beings when we try to fit God in a
little box as logical and rational consistency.
God goes over those low standards. Logic and rationality are small
standards that fit our little comprehension.
If we try to understand God through them it's a logical consequence not
to believe in Him.
However, when we break those mind barriers we are able to see the big
picture. Which is the huge love of a Father who bears his children even
if they try to put Him in a little box.

Thank you LW you said it better than I could.

I am sure this is not what you meant but...

I refuse to fit that which I see as GOD into the small box of that book.

Much good conversation, however, I see nothing here that makes any
logical sense as to why we need or even why a Bible is maintained.

This is a book whose writings are frought with inconsistancy and
ambiguity, conflicting stories and story lines. It was written based on
hearsay, it was an extrapulation of many word of mouth stories. Even in
it's original fomat, as adopted by the council of Trent, the vocabulary
can not even be understood
in the same context. So outdated are some of the words that the near
dead language to which it belonged, do not even have direct transations,
and therefore, whoever had the power to do so, added words that THEY
thought would suffice.

The words, the stories are written from the standpoint of a society we
can not even begin to relate to without a great deal of study of
historical facts, that even today are still being discovered.

There seems to be a fall back position to my question of what purpose
does this book serve, it seems to be, 'it's history'. If it is only
history, why has it been and still continues to be endowed with so much
power. Have you ever seen the Planet of the Apes movie where they
worship the almighty bomb? To me, I see the Bible being worshiped with
the same esteem as I see the poeple in the movie worshiping the bomb.

Maybe the biggest test of faith is the book itself. What if the purpose
of this book was to test those who revere it. What if the test is to
see how much hate, misconception and religious separation is necessary
before poeple put it down and follow their faith based on word of mouth,
on simple morals. What if all the saints, all the rites of passage, the
rituals, were meant to go away, and in it's stead one set of simple
messages - refer to the 10 commandments.??

I have given reasons why I see this book is damaging. In essence it
breeds hypocracy, and ignorence, hate, fear and can not even be
interpreted or held to the same statdards in every church proclaiming to
know it's true meaning. If the book has served to divide, one relition
into 230,000 sects in 2,000 years, is it any wonder that it would cause
unrest between those who revere it and those who do not?

Come on, is there anyone who will protect this book? Is there any
redeemable quality in this book that could not be passed on without the
use of a book at all?

Red wrote:
“Much good conversation, however, I see nothing here that makes any
logical sense as to why we need or even why a Bible is maintained.”

It’s a book that promises that if a person is good and begs for
forgiveness for being born a human they will be granted everlasting life
in a perfect heaven with an all-loving god, and presumably with the rest
of their family, friends, and loved ones that they knew when they had
been living on life.

It’s a fairytale that ends happily ever after (if your good) and it
claims to be the GOSPEL TRUTH!

Who wouldn’t want to cling to a book that makes such a promise?

Fri 04/27/07 10:14 PM
A great historical index of what has happened the last couple thousand
years. Only thing is... how does a poor son of a carpenter who had no
job, no home and no real big family become the most famous man in
history?

Everything in that book led up to his life, death and resurrection.
What purpose does it serve? To the believer, everything. To the
non-believer, a good historical reference.

My opinion of course. lol

According to historical reference: Jesus was a carpenter himself. His
home was anywhere He chose to be. He lived everywhere. He had family as
many of us do. He rose to being the most famous man in the world by
travels and the words He spoke to the masses. The miracles that He
proved spoke of Him. He was not poor by no means. Remember the gifts
given to Him as an infant?

The Bible served no purpose to me for many years. It scared me. It made
me feel that God was mean and ventictive. As did going to churh at that
time.

I read the Bible a lot now to give me insight. It shows me that not only
is there historical reference there, but it also tells with great
accuracy of the happenings of the world today.
I merely have to read and see the truths that were predicted.
It is what it is to me. It is what it is to others. To each his own.

Kat

Do you beleive we are in the end times kat?

I believe, if what I read as reference (being the Bible)is so. Then the
only way it can be changed from being so; is by us the human race. We
have the knowledge, the power and the resourses to change the damage
that we have put upon ourselves. We must be selfless and think of others
(our kids, grandkids and their kids) to salvage what we have destroyed.
It can be done. But, will it? I think not. People like to talk and do
nothing. So, unless we wholeheartedly put forth change with much
effort....then yes, I think we are very close. The signs are in our
face.

What about you AB?

Kat

I think the 'end times' are many, many , many generations away.

When we as a race are ready to leave this physical world behind as a
species.

I also believe we must first learn to clean our house (the earth) and
keep it that way before we will be ready.

I have walked the garden that is the earth. We have not kept it very
well. But there is time.

Yes, AB: That is why I said this.: It can be changed from being so; is
by us the human race. We
have the knowledge, the power and the resourses to change the damage
that we have put upon ourselves. We must be selfless and think of others
(our kids, grandkids and their kids) to salvage what we have destroyed.
It can be done. But, will it? I think not. People like to talk and do
nothing. So, unless we wholeheartedly put forth change with much
effort....then yes, I think we are very close.

This place we call home (earth) is still beautiful. But, it is ever
changing by our wants and our selfish behaviors. The destruction by us
as a people of "wanting more and better ways" is killing mother earth.
All for convience. Something as simlpe as putting down our cell phones
would change things. Driving smaller cars. Filling our gas tanks when
the sun is lowering. Taking shorter showers and using those new
flourescent light bulbs. Simple remedies, but so hard for many to
change.

Kat

What, in your opinion, purpose does the Bible serve?

First we would have to agree with a particular meaning of the term
'Bible'? ... and we all know we will never get to the end of that one.
I mean all the different versions of '...what 'The Bible' means for
me...' are as numeraous as there are Christians and then there are all
the non-Christians and the agnostics, and atheists, and ...!!!

So, let me speak from '... what 'The Bible' means for me'.

First, 'in my universe', 'The Bible' IS ONLY 'The Bible' when you place
it in its historical and cultural context. For billions of people on
this planet, there exist NO CONTEXT to even 'THINK' the WORD or the
CONCEPT 'bible'. 'bible': IT does not even exist!!! ... much less so
'THE Bible'.

In other words, 'The Bible', is fists and foremost something very
different depending on whom you talk to.

'The Bible' is such only for the believing and practicing Christians
whom actually 'believe' in the concept inside which the book was
'contextualized'.

And conceptualized like everythiong else humans think, speak and write,
IT sure was. The capitals 'T' and 'B' in 'The Book', were intended to
lend the simple word book (bible), its 'holy Book' or 'Holy Scriptures'
letters of 'sacredness'.
Of course, for almost all of those whom believe, referring to 'The
Bible' as a concept of a sacred nature is blasphemy. Many of them could
not fathom people having a completely different understanding and
interpretation of 'THEIR BOOK'!

But, reality has it, that many different understandings and
interpretations exist. I'll spare you, and simply share mine.

To me, 'The Bible' is a book, which is considered sacred by many. And
out of respect for their beliefs, I refer to this book as 'The Bible'.
Eventhough what it really is for me is a very fascinating historical and
cultural account of the 'recent' Jedeo-Christian heritage. I stress the
Judeo-Christian aspect, because the book almost obliterates MY history
as a human being amongst ALL my brothers AND sisters from the beginning
of humanity. Apart from a few years
'few years' which the old testament covers, it's almost as if Jesus
comes to save us, Christianity ensued from that point on, and before
that, no real humanity, just a story that starts somwhere around a
famous garden!!!

Well heck, how about the history of religions, ALL OF THEM!!! How about
the history of thought, of thinking, of language, of philosophy, of
science and of MANKIND as a whole!!! How about Christiananity as just a
very humble part of it all, inside of it all inside of Christianity as
'THE ALL (END-ALL)' !!! Very limiting perspective.

Humanity (other than Christians, or from Christian perspective) 'was
happening' way before the 'holy scriptures', and humananity and
thinking has moved a lot since 'The Bible' was 'written'. That makes for
a lot of 'blank space' that needed to be filled with a whole bunch of
'incredible stories' in today context, BUT VERY BELIEVABLE BACK THEN!!!

Written by thousands and thousands of monks and sacred scriptors, the
very very few whom could read and write at 'The Time', over a period of
hundreds of years, the sacred aspect of 'The Bible' made sense, up until
recently. Recently meaning the progressive period of the last 150-200
years or so, where we have become increasingly 'literate'!

The written word, 2000 years ago, at a time when no one could even
conceive of reading and writing, was considered mystical. Not a far
stretch to the 'sacred'.
The few whom could read and write, had 'The Knowledge',
... and also had 'The Power' over those whom couldn't even think for
themselves of ever reading and writing.

In that context, there is very little difference in my view, between
worshipping a 'Gold Veal', and worshipping 'The Bible'.

What constitutes literacy has changed throughout history. It has only
recently become expected and desirable to be fully literate and
demeaning if you are not. At one time, a literate person was one who
could sign his or her name. At other points, literacy was measured by
the ability to read the Bible (power). The benefit of clergy in common
law systems became dependent on reading a particular passage (limited
ability to read, but power none the less).

So, in my view, worshipping this book, and forgetting in the process,
everything we know today,
... it is foregoing at least 2000 years of human progress,
... and the huge gift of our recent forefathers whom paid with their
lives to democratize access to education and knowledge,
... such that we could all think for ourselves, and demystify blind
faith, which represents a hinderance much more than a blessing.

If you talk to me about 'The Bible', and its purpose?
I think it is this great book, amongst many other great books, which
gives a fascinating account of the birth and development of
Christianity.
I'll say very objectively that it is a 'phenomenon' that we can't
ignore, and have a lot to gain in 'knowing' more about in the context of
teh histority of humnanity.

Believing in this phenomenon is most certainly a line I find
counterproductive to cross.

The way you are writing about the original bible implies to me that,
because there were only so few able to read and write, they could shape
that part of history the way they wanted to see it

Hello 'invisible',

you wrote:

"... The way you are writing about the original bible implies to me
that, because there were only so few able to read and write, they could
shape that part of history the way they wanted to see it."

I think part of what you picked up on is what I'm inferring. But I think
this question deserves clarification on my part.

First, just between the two of us, and of course from my read of things,
if you were to ask me a copy of the original bible, I'm not sure I could
find it.
If there ever was (or still is) a 'work in progress', the bible is it.
Installed in the Christian world as the BOOK, is a relastively recent
phenomenon. Many died in religious wars to install their version of the
story of the world as the Holy Book, and holy scriptures, which we refer
to as 'The Bible' today.

As for the main question,

''... because there were only so few able to read and write, they could
shape that part of history the way they wanted to see it."

I would just qualify my comments this way. Throughout human history,
power and domination has been a fact of life. With respect to power,
man and woman have always had the choice to use power for the benefit of
the many, or abuse power to dominate and control the faith of others.

I believe both were at play throughout Christianity. More abusers on the
'church' side, and fewer benefactors as simple, humble, and true human
being the most inspiring of whom is Jesus of Nazareth. He wasn't in the
'business' of pwer brokerage, he was 'inventing a transformational
language for his time. So transfomational, so choking for his times,
that they killed him fotr it.

Given that I'm a stubbborn believer in the 'giving side' of human
nature, and furthermore, that I believe that fewer of the givers are
needed to make a difference, I think we will win, together, but in
spite of the 'dogmatics' controllers.

Does that answer your question 'invisible'?

Yes, perfectly, thank you

Oh, and I think that over so many years of re-translating and re-writing
the bible has lost a lot of it's originality anyway.

For me trying to make see people who don't have my own believes why the
bible is so important, and it updates itself every moment is like trying
to make a pig fly.
No offense intended.
The bible is not worshiped (at least not for me), and those who do it
are ignorants as far as I'm concern.
People who deny the value of the bible, may call it a fairytale or a
bunch of stories that are not related to our society, or that the
language is not same and the translations are wrongs. Please my friends
be more than welcome to find more justification to keep up with your
denials.
Before my Lord came to this world the vision of the humanity about God
was that He must be a big King and almighty Warrior.
When my Lord came to this world he preached that this God it's not that
He preached that God is a God of love not a god of death.
If you people take the bible just in the sense that if we are not good
we are going to hell let me tell you that you are more lost than Santa
Claus on July.
God wants us to be good because we want us to share the love He put
inside us with our brothers and sisters specially who need it more. And
not because if we are bad we are going to hell. I insist in my point if
you think that the bible just says that if u r bad u r going to hell,
let me tell you that u guys are outdated about 100 years.
I do things that as far as my religion is concern are bad, and I don't
have any regrets whatsoever because I know my Heavenly Father measures
me through my heart, and He knows how hard i work everyday to be better
and if I fail it's not because I'm bad.
BTW, it's never my intention make people change their points of view. My
only intention is try to break the misconception that my own church has
created with its own behavior with which I don't agree most of the times

TLW

The Bible {KJV} was first put in English. The Bible is the inspired
word of God given to us as a guide through this life.
To show the way to salvation of your soul. Buy reading and living the
ways taught by God's word we find grace in the sight of our creator.
True, faith is not something one can see at a glance, It is something
your heart knows is true.

The Holy Bible is the most widespread book in the world. It is
translated into more than 1600 languages and dialects used in the world.

The Holy Bible is not one book, but many. It consists of two major
divisions: the Old Testament (OT), and the New Testament (NT). The Old
Testament consists of 39 books and the deuterocanonical/apocryphal
books.
The New Testament consists of 27 books. The 39 books of the Old
Testament constitute the Hebrew Bible of the Jews. Jews are still
waiting for the coming of the Messiah (the Christ). They rejected Him in
His first advent, and therefore, they do not recognize the books of the
New Testament.
The Old Testament was written centuries before the time of Christ. The
New Testament was written in the first century, after the resurrection
of Christ, by inspired saintly apostles and disciples of Christ.
The books of the Holy Bible were written in three continents: Asia,
Africa, and Europe over a period of about 1500 years by some ((44
inspired prophets and apostles)) who lived virtuous godly lives
centuries apart in different locations. These writers were of varied
backgrounds. (((Some of them were kings and priests. Others were
physicians, farmers, shepherds, fishermen, and tentmakers.))) Yet, all
the books of the Bible are consistent and harmonious with one another,
and follow the same basic themes, as they were ""inspired by the same
eternal Holy Spirit of the living God"" who has no beginning and no end.
Despite the diversity of the languages, cultures, times, ages and
locations of the writers of the biblical books, the Holy Bible exhibits
remarkable unity in its message, purpose and theology. ((This is because
the primary author of the Holy Bible is the eternal living God)) who
inspired all the human writers who in turn reflected their varying
personalities and styles in the sacred writings as they delivered the
inspired message of God. This, in itself, is a sufficient proof of the
divine inspiration and origin of the Holy Bible: “For prophecy never
came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by
the Holy Spirit” (2 Peter 1: 21); “All Scripture is given by inspiration
of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for
instruction in righteousness” (2 Timothy 3: 16).

Kat

WHAT PURPOSE DOES THE BIBLE SERVE?

The Holy Bible constitutes an integrated coherent whole, centered in the
person of Christ. Christ is the central theme of the Holy Bible.
Each of its books has its own distinctive message in the whole.
The Holy Bible is a progressive unfolding and revealing of truth. It
tells the historical story of the salvation of humankind according to
the divine plan. It begins with the creation of the world, and ends with
the consummation of the history of humankind and the recreation of the
world after a prolonged spiritual battle between good and evil.
The Bible message is delivered in a variety of literary forms. Some
sections are historic narration of events. Others provide the speech of
God in the first person using phrases like, “Thus says the Lord” or “The
word of the Lord came to me” (Isaiah 1: 10, 18; 6: 8; Jeremiah 1:4;
Ezekiel 1: 3; etc).

The Old Testament (Torah) abounds in persons and events prefiguring
Christ, and signs and symbols of his work, and prophecies of his first
and second advents.

The central message of the Old Testament is the promise of, and
preparation for, the coming of the Messiah (the Christ) who would
provide the salvation of humankind from sin and spiritual death
(separation from God).

The New Testament is the fulfillment of the Old Testament's prophetic
message of the salvation of humankind from the bondage of sin and
corruption through Jesus Christ. Therefore, the Holy Bible in its
entirety, with all its divisions and books, is a fully integrated unity.

Kat