Philosophy has a very long history. One arm of that philosophy is
Ethics, which can not even be discussed without including religion. For
the philosophy of Ethics is grounded in the 'morals' that have been
shaped by religions.

To be fair, it is required that we all have the SAME understanding of
what sin is.

Societies are shaped, as a whole, on the morals which they uphold.
The Japanese are most gracious hosts. Within their culture it is
considered rude to admire some 'think' another posesses. In our culture
is it considered rude not to notice, in fact, we thrive on luxery and
non-sensical expensive creature comforts. In Japan, if one admires a
thing you own, it is your duty to present it as a gift to the admireor,
and it goes far beyond rude for the one who admired not to accept the
gift.

My point here is that there is a difference between the words sin and
moral. While both are considered in the philosophy of ethics, they can
not both be considered in a population where cultural and religious
differences exist.

Sin has it's roots in religion. To sin, you must commit an offence
against the beliefs of your faith. Therefore, when one commits an
immoral behavior, it is not a sin, unless the person committing it feels
compelled by their faith to admit it.

Sin belongs to those whose religion guides thier moral values. Sin does
not sit on my shoulders, nor on Abra. While I am guilty of moral
offences, I feel absolutely no shame or guilt were sin is concerned.

JUST ANOTHER ONE OF THOSE WAYS THAT RELIGION IS 'FORCED' UPON SOCIETY.
(that's from another thread)

Semantics.

Red wrote:
“Ethics, … can not even be discussed without including religion.”

I beg to disagree with this. I think it all depends on who’s doing the
discussing. If the discussion is taking place in a society of atheist I
believe they could easily construct and ethical system that does not
include religion. For example, the golden rule makes sense just from a
human perspective without any need to invoke the idea of a supreme
deity. However, I will agree that it would be impossible to discuss
ethics without including religion if people who are involved in the
discussing are themselves religious.

Red wrote:
“In Japan, if one admires a thing you own, it is your duty to present it
as a gift to the admireor, and it goes far beyond rude for the one who
admired not to accept the gift.”

Seems to me that could get quite tricky. What about the craftsman or
restorer of antiques. To ignore their work would be to fail to show
appreciation of their skill and effort, yet to admire their work could
place you in the awkward position of having them want to give you the
fruits of their labor. Just seems to me that there could be some
complications associated with that. But I guess they must know how to
deal with those delicate issues.

Red wrote:
“While I am guilty of moral offences, I feel absolutely no shame or
guilt were sin is concerned”

To me, it’s also about precisely what constitutes a ‘sin’.

For example, if a religion claims that every time I see a sexy woman and
become aroused by that then I have committed a ‘sin’ of lust, then of
course I’d be a sinner. I mean, holy hell! It’s human nature for a
male to become aroused in the presence of a sexy female. There’s no
way I’m going to be made to feel guilty about that or get down on my
hands and knees to beg forgiveness for something that is so natural.

The men who wrote the bible knew perfectly well what they were doing.
They were creating a dogma that would force everyone to confess that
they are a sinner. What human being does not get sexually aroused by
the opposite gender at times? It’s a PERFECTLY NATURAL INSTINCT.

How can that be a sin?

With those kinds of definitions for ‘sin’ no wonder they claim a that
all men are sinners. It’s probably a sin to enjoy breathing too! In
fact, I’m pretty sure that it’s a sin to just be born human!

Controlling dogma was indeed designed to be a ball and chain of guilt
that no man can escape.

Yes Abra, I do feel that way. I feel like people feel that lying is a
right, and that cheating is merely a personal choice, and that hurting
others is self defense. That as long as there is no accountability, then
there is no problem. Just don't get caught.

While I have seen a rise in people trying to change things, it
will only happen when we get serious and join together.
I keep seeing people calling in a religion here. I have yet to see a
named religion posted in many of these threads.

What on earth does one mean by "ball and chain of guilt"? When I was
growing up and when I was raising my kids, guilt was and is a factor in
trying to make kids accountable, along with the rewards of good
behavior.

Now, I saw it said about teaching ones kids about, oh lets fire. It
burns and will do great harm. How does a kid understand this? I taught
my kids about fire by letting them feel the heat.Then they understood
the consequences of that fire.

Bobby, for sure we have had our times. Things were said, and felt. It
was hard in some ways. But, my friend, I will stand by you because, that
is who I am. I am full of love and I understand there will always be
conflict in some fashion.
It is my belief that to pray in public, private or on my kness is to be
accountable for my beliefs. Not being afraid or scared what others think
is my strength. The God I pray to acknoweledges that, and finds pleasure
in my heart.
If one knew the problems I am having in my life right now, they might
ask how I can believe in God so much. I have nothing to brag about. My
life is in a shambles right now. If I didn't believe that my God will
put in me the strength to find a way, I would most certainly be
depressed.

This may be unbelievable to most; but I have indeed given that what was
precious to me to someone that really wanted it. I have said to so many
that I sure hope no one wants this or that, because if they needed it
worse than me, I would probably give it to them. I had a 1979 Trans am
Bandit car stolen from me. I made the necessary report, then said to my
family and the cops," they must have needed it more than me". I never
got the car back. My sister worries too much about her things. She
worries that someone will take her stuff if she places statues in her
yard. Well, I tell her show it, enjoy it now. If someone wants it bad
enough to steal it, then so be it. Don't spend so much time worrying
about it. We put too much value on stuff.

I value each and everyones opinions posted here. I make no judgement on
you or your beliefs. But, I will continue to pray for us all, and
continue to do as I am taught by Him(my God). To spread His word to
those that know not. Not forcing anything, just when given opportunity,
will speak for Him.

Kat

Very well said, Kat and I agree.

Abra, where does it say in the Bible that natural sexual urges are a
sin?

Sheila wrote:
“Abra, where does it say in the Bible that natural sexual urges are a
sin?”

I don’t think it says it directly, but rather indirectly.

In one place it talks about ‘lust’ as being a sin.

Then in another place it talks about having a thought of doing something
is the same as doing it.

At least this is what many churches preach.

Of course, I never bought into that one either.

Besides, how else could they arrive at the conclusion that all men are
sinners?

When I say that I don’t feel like a sinner I’m saying that I haven’t
done anything will ill-intent, or even with conceit to the point of
neglecting other’s feelings for my own pleasure.

I mean, if you’re going to call me a ‘sinner’ you’re going to have to
resort to something that I consider to be completely innocent. I
simply haven’t done anything that I sincerely feel guilty about.

And even with respect to my entire life, there was never a time when I
maliciously plotted to do evil things. Anything over the course of my
life that I might associate with ‘guilt feelings’ would necessarily need
to be associated with acts of pure stupidity or inconsideration on my
part. I have NEVER in my entirely life purposefully tried to hurt,
harm, or take advantage of another person. And that INCLUDES using a
woman purely for my own sexual satisfaction without any concern for her
emotions, well-being or future.

Even from a very early age, (even in my teens) I respected women (girls)
as PEOPLE!

If I have sinned much in my entire life those sins were extremely petty.
Certainly nothing worth being crucified over. Why should I be held
‘responsible’ for a need for a god to send a sacrificial lamb to die for
the sins of humanity? If everyone were like me such an act would have
never been required.

That’s how I feel about it.

If everyone were like me there would be no need for locks and keys.

If everyone were like me you’d never hear about rape or child abuse

If everyone were like me there would be no such word as ‘war’.

Why should I be made to feel guilty and responsible for the people who
cause those things?

This idea that all men are sinners is BALONEY!

The Bible talks about LUST being a sin, not about natural sexual urges.
There is a difference.

I don't go around plotting evil, either, but I do know that I've done
things that were not always "good." I'm still guilty of having committed
sin.

From my perspective, you're guilty of the sin of putting yourself above
God. You seem to think you're infallible, that you don't need
redemption. I beg to differ. We ALL do.

But ....since you can't see it or refuse to accept it, not much sense in
arguing this point ad nauseam, is there?

Sheila wrote:
“From my perspective, you're guilty of the sin of putting yourself above
God. You seem to think you're infallible, that you don't need
redemption. I beg to differ. We ALL do.”

Please keep in mind that it’s only from your point of view that I’m
putting myself above YOUR God.

I don’t view the Bible as having anything at all to do with god.

So my rejection of the things that are suggested in that book do not
equate to me putting myself above god.

That’s YOUR view. Not mine.

The god I know doesn’t expect people to grovel for forgiveness when they
haven’t done anything wrong.

And no, I don’t need redemption. That’s true!

Redemption is the central theme of Christianity.

The god I know doesn’t feed on redemption.

I don’t see that as being the main theme of god.

God is far above that.

Because a person does not accept the christian view of sin does not mean
he places himself above god/God/GOD.

As I advance upon my path I reach further into that-which-is in my
journey. Each time my world expands I find god/God/GOD to be greater
than my new world.

Each time I step outside of my personal box I find that I am still
encompased by god/God/GOD. I then merrily explore my new expanded
sphere of influence (my new box) so that I may again step outside of it.

And yet each time I find that-which-is to be greater than
that-which-is-me.

How could I ever place my self above something that completely
encompasses my entire being.

Iam the center of myself and an atom with the greateness of the
universe.

Yeah, He's "my" God and the God of about xx kabillion people, too.

Enlighten me, Abra. Which god do you serve? What's his name? Does he
have a name? I have a sneaking suspicion his name is "James."

xx kabillion...

Sheila wrote:
Enlighten me, Abra. Which god do you serve? What's his name? Does he
have a name? I have a sneaking suspicion his name is "James."

We call my god, "The Universe"

I don't think of god as being an egotistical entity.

I think of god more along the lines of Eastern Mysticism.

I don’t ‘serve’ god like as if god is some kind of separate ego in the
sky.

God created me to be me. The best way that I can ‘serve’ god is to be
who I am.

God created this life for us to enjoy. This is god’s purpose. There is
no other purpose.

If you aren’t enjoying your life then you are failing god’s purpose.

I do not follow a god...I do not worship a god...I do not feel a need to
sit within any one's parameters.

Intrinsically, inherantly, I understand the path that is mine to be
directed on.

I am accountable...I am responsible...I will not pass the buck, and
'leave it in god's hands'. For it is my hands that have the blood on
them, me, this person typing from her home on the other side of the
world.

I own my crap, I am part of humanity and share in the corruption and mis
representations by my species.

I hold no god to save me...I hold no hell for my damnation.

Perhaps I do worship 'Lee'... for in the end, upon my death it is about

How will did I live?..(and I don't mean 12 cars six houses, and four
pools) how will did I live upon this earth, for this earth

How well did I love?....how well did I learn to love without judgement
and ego?

How well did I learn to let go?...Let go of arrogance, superiority,
righteousness, and ego?

Abra, don't tell me that I'm not fulfilling God's purpose if I don't fit
into what YOUR definition of God is. Your smugosity and self-servingness
is so transparent it's not even funny.

I haven't said anything about how you have to believe in the God I
believe in. You can believe in the Pillsbury Dough Boy, for all I care.
But you can't separate God (the God of the Bible) from the Bible and
just pick and choose how you would like Him to be.

The ten commandments aren't a bad guideline but the rest of the bible to
me is just a collection of stories and observations written by people a
long time ago.
I'm not here to bash anyone's religion or their beliefs. To each their
own.
I do however take offense to anybody trying to tell me what "I" should
believe. I'm simply not buying what your selling.
You'd have better luck with encyclopedias!

“Abra, don't tell me that I'm not fulfilling God's purpose if I don't
fit into what YOUR definition of God is. Your smugosity and
self-servingness is so transparent it's not even funny.”

“smugosity”

(ha ha)

I’m sorry Sheila, but I don’t recall suggesting that you aren’t
fulfilling God’s purpose. I was merely explaining how I view god per
your request.

Also, I feel that your illusion that I’m self-serving is totally of your
own making. You seem to be hung-up on an egotistical view of
everything. You view god as having an ego, and you view humans as all
being individual egos that somehow need to redeem themselves to the big
ego in the sky.

When I say that god’s purpose is for us to enjoy this life I’m thinking
in terms of humanity collectively. Therefore if I egotistically do
things for my own personal enjoyment that cause other people distress
then I am not serving god because the purpose is that we all enjoy life.

I just automatically think in this non-egotistical way. But you seem to
be locked into an egotistical view of things. Like everyone is somehow
separate including god. Then you shove that view onto me and tell me
that I’m ‘transparent’.

I’m just sitting here shaking my head with disbelief.

I'm hind of shaking my head too, James..

What we believe in is what defines us..

I have a different take on God/The Creator..

He/She does not want me on my knees, therfore, I walk upright..

He/She does not require that I serve pennance, therfore, He/She gave me
a Conscience.

God made me the way I am
God did the same with you
And we become God's children
When, to each other, we are true..

EDIT: "kind of shaking my head"

No, Abra, I view YOU as having an ego, and a colossal one at that.
Sorry, but that's what I get from your "smugosity." (Like that word, do
ya? I just make it up!)

Sheila wrote:
"No, Abra, I view YOU as having an ego, and a colossal one at that."

I know you do.

Fortunately that doesn’t have any affect on who I really am.