I's worth a few moments to consider what a real american hero has to say
about war and foreign intervention.:

Smedley Butler on Interventionism

-- Excerpt from a speech delivered in 1933, by Major General Smedley
Butler, USMC.
War is just a racket. A racket is best described, I believe, as
something that is not what it seems to the majority of people. Only a
small inside group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the
benefit of the very few at the expense of the masses.
I believe in adequate defense at the coastline and nothing else. If a
nation comes over here to fight, then we'll fight. The trouble with
America is that when the dollar only earns 6 percent over here, then it
gets restless and goes overseas to get 100 percent. Then the flag
follows the dollar and the soldiers follow the flag.
I wouldn't go to war again as I have done to protect some lousy
investment of the bankers. There are only two things we should fight
for. One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of
Rights. War for any other reason is simply a racket.
There isn't a trick in the racketeering bag that the military gang is
blind to. It has its "finger men" to point out enemies, its "muscle men"
to destroy enemies, its "brain men" to plan war preparations, and a "Big
Boss" Super-Nationalistic-Capitalism.
It may seem odd for me, a military man to adopt such a comparison.
Truthfulness compels me to. I spent thirty- three years and four months
in active military service as a member of this country's most agile
military force, the Marine Corps. I served in all commissioned ranks
from Second Lieutenant to Major-General. And during that period, I spent
most of my time being a high class muscle- man for Big Business, for
Wall Street and for the Bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster
for capitalism.
I suspected I was just part of a racket at the time. Now I am sure of
it. Like all the members of the military profession, I never had a
thought of my own until I left the service. My mental faculties remained
in suspended animation while I obeyed the orders of higher-ups. This is
typical with everyone in the military service.
I helped make Mexico, especially Tampico, safe for American oil
interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the
National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping
of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefits of Wall
Street. The record of racketeering is long. I helped purify Nicaragua
for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912
(where have I heard that name before?). I brought light to the Dominican
Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. In China I helped to see
to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested.
During those years, I had, as the boys in the back room would say, a
swell racket. Looking back on it, I feel that I could have given Al
Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in
three districts. I operated on three continents.

still applies I think

a 1933 speech, by a general,,, how many generals since the civil war
have actually fired a shot in a hostile attempt to protect themselves or
someone to their left or right.

about medals of honor- the past winners/awardees definately deserve to
wear them. having said that, there are many soldiers now a days that
definatley have deserved them as well, but will never receive anything
more than a pat on the back for great work done. whats my point?

those men, living today would probably have a different take on the post
that you wrote.

i do believe that we can safely call the general an american hero, it
doesnt take away the REAL AMERICAN HERO'S comments on the matter any
less relavent. of course that wouldnt suit your purposes and i
understand that.

racket- v. 2: an illegal enterprise (such as extortion or fraud or drug
peddling or prostitution) carried on for profit [syn: fraudulent scheme,
illegitimate enterprise].

all wars could have been define inpart to the above definition. one side
or another, example, mass killings would be classified as an illegal
enterprise, gasing thousands of people could be classified as an illegal
enterprise. finding thousands of bodies in mass graves could be
considered the same thing. stealing a countries resources to use for
your own gain prosituting their country for your own gain, could be the
same as well. now who in america put thousands of gased bodies in the
ground? who attacked two countries on their borders again using gased
weapons. who tortured people, raped mothers and daughters, cut off
heads, arms, legs, hands, tongues, eyes, genitals.

if you dare to think that america, its troops, or forces even remotely
exhibit any kind of these actions then we are living in two different
america's, the one i know and the one you know.

i do understand that you believe that the root f all that is evil is the
government in america, to bad we dont hold others to the standards we
hold oursleves, meaning if some other country makes an independent move
to defend its borders then everything is good in the world, unless that
country is america, then we're bullying our way in the world.

there can be no mistake that i am all for equality, if it is okay for
you to call it criminal, then it is my right to call it justified.
opposing views bring somewhere in the middle the right answers, i am
neither all right or all wrong, you are neither all right or all wrong.

interesting conversation!!!

armydoc...
I have never said the root of all evil is the american
government...there is no better form of governance in the world ...our
constitution to me is of greater importance than the bible. Having said
that I can honestly say that the current administration does demonstrate
evil intent based on their continued circumventing of constitutional
law....if we have reached the point of saying that the constitution is
nothing but a rag that doesnt apply anymore then we truly are just
another 2d rate banana republic...

As for Butler...you can also add names like McArthur, Patton, and
Eisenhower to the list..all have warned us about the corporatism of
war...Frankly I believe these general & heroes since they are rubbing
shoulders with the political leaders during times of war...they see both
sides..the battle side and the policy side...I appreciate your
dedication to duty for the country..but remind you that your oath is to
defend the constitution first...and I challenge you to read about the
finances of war...who makes money because of war...Napoleon was on his
way to conquering europe until a few family international bankers pulled
the plug on the money...as it was then..so it is now..follow the money
and you will realize that things are not as they seem...

and before you call me liberal or whatever..I havent voted DFL since the
early 70's..and I havent voted republican either...to me both parties
are the same...I have voted libertarian & constitutional ...either of
which are clearly more republican than the current party...I can only
name maybe 3 people in congress that I feel are doing what they have
been elected to do..
As a former marine I wish you well..

Davinci, after reading this, I've got to say I couldn't agree more.

if you do watch the money you will find that anytime an economy is in
the rutts, wars always rekindle the growth, WWII pulled the US the rest
of the way out of the depression that started in 1928. war is a
profitable enterprise, no one is debating that. my debate is with the
illegality that some have been claiming.

napolean made the mistake of marching into russian during the winter, no
amount of money would have changed that outcome, much in the same way
that the nazi's were stopped during WWII.

generals do know more of the politics behind war. ive witnessed that as
well. politics though has no place on the battlefield(it gets people
killed- and ive seen that too, when ordered not to return fire into a
mosque because it might "look bad" but a soldiers life was worth being
sacrificed. do i understand fully the hows and whys of us fighting?
probably not to the degree i would like to, does that mean i am naive to
it, not at all, there is a bigger picture to it all, and i refuse to
believe it is all based upon how much money we can profity from it, even
if that is an eventual outcome so be it. sometimes though marine you
just have to do the hard right over the easy wrong, and that to you know
is the truth, morally, ethically, honorably, without remorse or second
guessing the right.

as far as circumventing the constitution, i do not believe that he has.
everything he has done has been within his rights as the commander and
chief, and even more so than his predicessor with regards to the troops
still in kosovo, that even you as a part of the american people have
seem to have forgotten about. just because there are those who do not
agree with him doesnt mean that he has broke the law, whether it be
constitutionally in america or internationally, after all he did get the
resolutions pushed through the UN didnt he. not that i believe that
defunct institution holds any power to legitimize a damn thing, but they
seem to be the voice for the world nowadays like the aclu.

i really think we should all just freaking take a breath, let this final
push of troops do its thing and see where it goes from there. as you
know if your doing your own research on all this, top generals say that
the push even without its 35,000 troops there in force yet, has made
significant inroads to squelching the insurgency in iraq. with more help
coming, i can honestly say that in the near future i think we will all
be talking about how wrong ALL of us were on the war.

i still believe.

my oath, never question it, i serve the people of america, even those
who would mock me for it. to you i say semper fi. as am i.


doc

thanks shenerd...<funny name>


good luck armydoc..I have your back more than you realize