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| Topic: Quantum Mechanics Introduction | |
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Light slows in a medium due to the wave properties. ummmmmm, I thought I just showed that it did the whole concept of a medium having an index of refraction is the ratio of the speed of light in a vaccum to the slowed speed of light in the medium speed of light in a vaccum = 186,000 mps speed of light in water = 140,000 mps 186,000/140,000 = 1.33 thus the index of refraction of water is 1.33 You showed it just fine. I was trying to explain to abra why it slows. He just doesn't understand the wave properties. Very nice graphics, especially the last one. |
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also photons are affected by gravity. Thats why stars twinkle. All that business about atmospheric disturbance isnt true (well partially) But if that were the case then why dont planets twinkle? Starlight is bent and diverted by the gravitational fields of the stars it passes by. That is where the twinkle comes from
and photons are affected by the interatomic attractive/repellent force I dont know much about quantum theory but I know I hear a lot of weird left field stuff in this thread |
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also photons are affected by gravity. Thats why stars twinkle. All that business about atmospheric disturbance isnt true (well partially) But if that were the case then why dont planets twinkle? Starlight is bent and diverted by the gravitational fields of the stars it passes by. That is where the twinkle comes from and photons are affected by the interatomic attractive/repellent force I dont know much about quantum theory but I know I hear a lot of weird left field stuff in this thread See this thread was worth starting. Now I know why stars twinkle.  
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metalwing wrote: You showed it just fine. I was trying to explain to abra why it slows. He just doesn't understand the wave properties. Very nice graphics, especially the last one. It's not that I don't understand wave theory. I understand wave theory just fine. I thought I made it perfectly clear why wave theory can't be the explanation if there is no aether. Don't look at me, I didn't steal the aether. You'll have to argue with Michelson and Morley on that one. I think James Clerk Maxwell and Albert Einstein might have had a hand in the heist as well. I dont know much about quantum theory but I know I hear a lot of weird left field stuff in this thread Well quantum theory is indeed weird. Let there be no doubt about that. I used to be in love with classical physics myself at one time. Isaac Newton was my childhood hero. Him and Zeno. Those were my two childhood heroes. When I got to Relativity I couldn't even believe that at first. I fought for classical Newtonian explanations tooth and nail before I finally caved and realized that Abert Einstein truly was a genuis. It took me a very long time to fully accept relativity, and even after I accepted it, it took me even longer before I start to say that I actually undstood it intuitively. Now I feel that I have a pretty good grasp of that, and time dilation no longer bothers me in the least, even intuitively. Abert Einstein became my new "hero". When I got to QM I sided with Albert Einstein just like I had previously sided with Isaac Newton. In the Einstein/Bohr debates (not that I was there, but as I learned about them) I sided with Einstein to the very bitter end. And a bitter end it was! I struggled with Bell's Theorem for literally YEARS trying to find a hole in it. In truth is wasn't all that long ago, maybe only 10 years ago (I was about 50). I had been struggling with these issues since my teens so it took me 30 years to finally realize that Niels Bohr was the real genuis all along. I truly feel now that I do indeed have an intuitive feeling for quantum complementarity. But that's beside the point here. The only point that I'd like to make here is that Quantum Mechanics seems to demand that all "measurable" interacting energy. (actually called "observables" in QM), must interact as a quantum of energy without exception. This is precisely why modern phsyicists believe in a 'graviton'. I'm not personally convinced of gravitons myself. Just the same, it shows that modern scientists are expecting that even gravity must be be quantizted. Actually, having just typed that it sure seems like it should be. If all energy is quantized then gravity shouldn't be an exception because ultimately it's just another form of energy (abeit negative). In any case, my real point is that physicists are extremely confident that all electromagnetic energy is quantized, and the photon is the quantum size of that energy field. Therefore any interaction with any magnetic, or electric fields should necessarily require a 'quantum interaction'. This is the claim of QM. So to have 'waves' of electromagnetic energy interacting with anything in a nice smooth continuous way, is simlpy not permitted by QM. They can be said to travel in free space in a nice smooth continuous way. But they can't 'interact' with anything in a nice smooth continuous way. Not even other waves of light. Any "measurable" or "observable" interaction must be quantized. That's the deal. This is what QM is demanding. No energy can be 'exchanged' in less than a 'quantum' amount. So while the classical wave theory is a really pretty picture and certainly seems to make sense. At a deeper level QM says that something else must be going on. It was that 'something else' that I was attempting to describe when metalwing flew off the handel. The Schrödinger Wave Equation Actually WORKS! That's really all I'm saying. But it's describing waves of probability, not physical waves. None the less it WORKS! So if Metalwing will please correct my report card so I can go home now I'd truly appreciate it. |
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I covered all this way back on page 3! from the wiki.... "At the microscale, an electromagnetic wave's phase velocity is slowed in a material because the electric field creates a disturbance in the charges of each atom (primarily the electrons) proportional to the permittivity of the medium. The charges will, in general, oscillate slightly out of phase with respect to the driving electric field. The charges thus radiate their own electromagnetic wave that is at the same frequency but with a phase delay. The macroscopic sum of all such contributions in the material is a wave with the same frequency but shorter wavelength than the original, leading to a slowing of the wave's phase velocity. Most of the radiation from oscillating material charges will modify the incoming wave, changing its velocity. However, some net energy will be radiated in other directions (see scattering)." "Recent research has also demonstrated the existence of negative refractive index which can occur if the real parts of both εr and μr are simultaneously negative, although such is a necessary but not sufficient condition. Not thought to occur naturally, this can be achieved with so-called metamaterials and offers the possibility of perfect lenses and other exotic phenomena such as a reversal of Snell's law.[2][3]"  |
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maybe this will help  at least its a cool graphic yep. that's the 2D model. no aether necessary. just oscillating charge density.
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According to Niels Bohr, the father of the orthodox 'Copenhagen Interpretation' of quantum physics, "Anyone who is not shocked by quantum theory has not understood it".
I don't understand it and still am shocked
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necessary, but not sufficient.
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Edited by
Abracadabra
on
Tue 08/25/09 01:29 PM
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I covered all this way back on page 3! from the wiki.... "At the microscale, an electromagnetic wave's phase velocity is slowed in a material because the electric field creates a disturbance in the charges of each atom (primarily the electrons) proportional to the permittivity of the medium. The charges will, in general, oscillate slightly out of phase with respect to the driving electric field. The charges thus radiate their own electromagnetic wave that is at the same frequency but with a phase delay. The macroscopic sum of all such contributions in the material is a wave with the same frequency but shorter wavelength than the original, leading to a slowing of the wave's phase velocity. Most of the radiation from oscillating material charges will modify the incoming wave, changing its velocity. However, some net energy will be radiated in other directions (see scattering)." "Recent research has also demonstrated the existence of negative refractive index which can occur if the real parts of both εr and μr are simultaneously negative, although such is a necessary but not sufficient condition. Not thought to occur naturally, this can be achieved with so-called metamaterials and offers the possibility of perfect lenses and other exotic phenomena such as a reversal of Snell's law.[2][3]" Thank you Slow! I never saw that post! Sorry I missed that! This basically saying the same thing that I said, only I put it in terms of quanta (because quantum mechanics demands it) and this article doesn't deny this at all. They article says: "The charges will, in general, oscillate slightly out of phase with respect to the driving electric field. The charges thus radiate their own electromagnetic wave that is at the same frequency but with a phase delay. That's the QUANTUM INTERACTION that I was attempting to describe. If those charges absorbed an electromagentic wave, and then re-radiated a new wave having the same frequency and momentum, then isn't that what I had described? Yes it most certainly is! It's precisely what I had described, and I was trying to explain how the Schrödinger Wave Equation actually demands that the momentum be preserved. I was actually going into more depth than what the article states because I was trying to actually explain the quantum process that QM actually describes and why it WORKS! It right in the Schrödinger Wave Equation! It's in the INPUT function! You have to put a wave INTO the Schrödinger Wave Equation before you can get anything OUT of it. And that's how it conserves the momentum. The INPUT wave determine the probability distribution. That was my little 'lesson' on QM. But I got a zero and and "F" for having delivered that lecture.  |
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metalwing wrote: You showed it just fine. I was trying to explain to abra why it slows. He just doesn't understand the wave properties. Very nice graphics, especially the last one. It's not that I don't understand wave theory. I understand wave theory just fine. I thought I made it perfectly clear why wave theory can't be the explanation if there is no aether. Don't look at me, I didn't steal the aether. You'll have to argue with Michelson and Morley on that one. I think James Clerk Maxwell and Albert Einstein might have had a hand in the heist as well. I dont know much about quantum theory but I know I hear a lot of weird left field stuff in this thread Well quantum theory is indeed weird. Let there be no doubt about that. I used to be in love with classical physics myself at one time. Isaac Newton was my childhood hero. Him and Zeno. Those were my two childhood heroes. When I got to Relativity I couldn't even believe that at first. I fought for classical Newtonian explanations tooth and nail before I finally caved and realized that Abert Einstein truly was a genuis. It took me a very long time to fully accept relativity, and even after I accepted it, it took me even longer before I start to say that I actually undstood it intuitively. Now I feel that I have a pretty good grasp of that, and time dilation no longer bothers me in the least, even intuitively. Abert Einstein became my new "hero". When I got to QM I sided with Albert Einstein just like I had previously sided with Isaac Newton. In the Einstein/Bohr debates (not that I was there, but as I learned about them) I sided with Einstein to the very bitter end. And a bitter end it was! I struggled with Bell's Theorem for literally YEARS trying to find a hole in it. In truth is wasn't all that long ago, maybe only 10 years ago (I was about 50). I had been struggling with these issues since my teens so it took me 30 years to finally realize that Niels Bohr was the real genuis all along. I truly feel now that I do indeed have an intuitive feeling for quantum complementarity. But that's beside the point here. The only point that I'd like to make here is that Quantum Mechanics seems to demand that all "measurable" interacting energy. (actually called "observables" in QM), must interact as a quantum of energy without exception. This is precisely why modern phsyicists believe in a 'graviton'. I'm not personally convinced of gravitons myself. Just the same, it shows that modern scientists are expecting that even gravity must be be quantizted. Actually, having just typed that it sure seems like it should be. If all energy is quantized then gravity shouldn't be an exception because ultimately it's just another form of energy (abeit negative). In any case, my real point is that physicists are extremely confident that all electromagnetic energy is quantized, and the photon is the quantum size of that energy field. Therefore any interaction with any magnetic, or electric fields should necessarily require a 'quantum interaction'. This is the claim of QM. So to have 'waves' of electromagnetic energy interacting with anything in a nice smooth continuous way, is simlpy not permitted by QM. They can be said to travel in free space in a nice smooth continuous way. But they can't 'interact' with anything in a nice smooth continuous way. Not even other waves of light. Any "measurable" or "observable" interaction must be quantized. That's the deal. This is what QM is demanding. No energy can be 'exchanged' in less than a 'quantum' amount. So while the classical wave theory is a really pretty picture and certainly seems to make sense. At a deeper level QM says that something else must be going on. It was that 'something else' that I was attempting to describe when metalwing flew off the handel. The Schrödinger Wave Equation Actually WORKS! That's really all I'm saying. But it's describing waves of probability, not physical waves. None the less it WORKS! So if Metalwing will please correct my report card so I can go home now I'd truly appreciate it. If you understood transparency, you would understand how the waves pass through matter. If the absorption and re emission occurs as you described in your idiotic explanation, fiber optics carrying high amounts of energy required to remove the lesion from your brain would simply melt, because ALL of the energy would be absorbed and released by the medium. There are numerous graphics posted all over this thread, thanks to quiet, explaining how it actually works at a quantum level. |
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The only thing I understood was Schrödinger. I worked for a Herr Schrödinger once and he was very strict with his inventory at the store
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If you understood transparency, you would understand how the waves pass through matter. If the absorption and re emission occurs as you described in your idiotic explanation, fiber optics carrying high amounts of energy required to remove the lesion from your brain would simply melt, because ALL of the energy would be absorbed and released by the medium. Not only do you get an F, you are unteachable. There are numerous graphics posted all over this thread, thanks to quiet, explaining how it actually works at a quantum level. Quiet's explanations are all perfectly correct "Classical" physics. But with all due respect he is not presenting the quantum picture, and I don't believe that he ever even claim to be presenting the quantum picture did he? I think he even offered that he's not real familiar with the quantum picture? Yep, here it is: Quietman wrote: I dont know much about quantum theory but I know I hear a lot of weird left field stuff in this thread See, he never even claimed to be describing the quantum picture. He's demonstrating the classical picture. Quite well I might add. He should be the one handing our grades! |
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I don't even want my grade. I will write a F on it myself if you don't mind.
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You can't fail yet! We're still having the first lecture!
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According to Niels Bohr, the father of the orthodox 'Copenhagen Interpretation' of quantum physics, "Anyone who is not shocked by quantum theory has not understood it". I don't understand it and still am shocked Well I understand it (the mathematical model called QM) And yes, I'm shocked. But I'm getting used to it. I've accepted quantum complementarity so completely by now it's almost starting to seem intuitive. But clearly not in a classical 'cause-and-effect' way. But I've truly come to accept that I don't need a classical 'cause-and-effect' anymore. I'm totally happy with true randomness. (or even unsynchronized isolated seperate determinitic systems interacting). It doesn't matter to me. I actually welcome it now. I see where it can break the chain of cause and effect. And actually that's a good thing as far as I'm concerned. How does it work? I can't say, but I've accepted that it works. So I guess I've gotten over the 'shock'. After all, I've been at this for decades. Nothing shocks me anymore.
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I covered all this way back on page 3! from the wiki.... "At the microscale, an electromagnetic wave's phase velocity is slowed in a material because the electric field creates a disturbance in the charges of each atom (primarily the electrons) proportional to the permittivity of the medium. The charges will, in general, oscillate slightly out of phase with respect to the driving electric field. The charges thus radiate their own electromagnetic wave that is at the same frequency but with a phase delay. The macroscopic sum of all such contributions in the material is a wave with the same frequency but shorter wavelength than the original, leading to a slowing of the wave's phase velocity. Most of the radiation from oscillating material charges will modify the incoming wave, changing its velocity. However, some net energy will be radiated in other directions (see scattering)." "Recent research has also demonstrated the existence of negative refractive index which can occur if the real parts of both εr and μr are simultaneously negative, although such is a necessary but not sufficient condition. Not thought to occur naturally, this can be achieved with so-called metamaterials and offers the possibility of perfect lenses and other exotic phenomena such as a reversal of Snell's law.[2][3]" Thank you Slow! I never saw that post! Sorry I missed that! This basically saying the same thing that I said, only I put it in terms of quanta (because quantum mechanics demands it) and this article doesn't deny this at all. They article says: "The charges will, in general, oscillate slightly out of phase with respect to the driving electric field. The charges thus radiate their own electromagnetic wave that is at the same frequency but with a phase delay. That's the QUANTUM INTERACTION that I was attempting to describe. If those charges absorbed an electromagentic wave, and then re-radiated a new wave having the same frequency and momentum, then isn't that what I had described? Yes it most certainly is! It's precisely what I had described, and I was trying to explain how the Schrödinger Wave Equation actually demands that the momentum be preserved. I was actually going into more depth than what the article states because I was trying to actually explain the quantum process that QM actually describes and why it WORKS! It right in the Schrödinger Wave Equation! It's in the INPUT function! You have to put a wave INTO the Schrödinger Wave Equation before you can get anything OUT of it. And that's how it conserves the momentum. The INPUT wave determine the probability distribution. That was my little 'lesson' on QM. But I got a zero and and "F" for having delivered that lecture. I knew what you meant! St. Bernard of Clairvaux about 1150, "L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés ou désirs!" |
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I don't even want my grade. I will write a F on it myself if you don't mind. Hells bells, I'll give you an A for being in Awe At least you understand it well enough to be flabbergasted! Some other people act like there's nothing to it or that they can explain it away with old classical ideas. They don't even have a clue yet that those old explanations ultimately can't work. |
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You can't fail yet! We're still having the first lecture! Are you kidding me! I am out the door if this is the first lecture only!
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I mean seriously if this was a Quantum Mechanics introductory then I can't even imagine what Advanced Quantum Mechanics is. It probably is written in somekind of martian language or something.
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I knew what you meant! St. Bernard of Clairvaux about 1150, "L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés ou désirs!" Tu es un homme sage http://users.csonline.net/designer/ideas/slowhand.mp3 |
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