I want to make two corrections. I never stated people cant take care of each other or that government does a better job. I do feel though that people WONT take care of each other if it requires their own direct time and effort. I think, in the form of taxes, people pay an amount out of habit of law and they vote in principle for the things they choose to use it for. For example, many people who would be supportive of adoption may not actually be willing to adopt themselves. I dont see a flaw in the logic, I just see an inconsistency in the things people do and say in gesture and the things they actually step up to the plate for when their time comes.

I've READ it. That's how I know for a fact that I'm right. YOU need to read it because you clearly don't UNDERSTAND it. Start with the literature I mentioned in this thread, then move on to the Federalist papers and the anti-Federalist papers and the Articles of Confederation, the Declaration of Independence, and the Constitution.

And how are community groups gathered into teams not collective?

How do Californian's do a better job at helping my neighbors with their problems?

Ever live through a natural catastrophy? You would see the government TRYING to help everyone, but the true help would come from neighbors.

To help people, you need more than money my friend.

We are all each others neighbors

Corrupt leaders are our own fault. We elect them year after year. Or we allow them to be elected by others by not voting year after year. Or we do not participate in our government that is suppose to be by us and for us which makes it our responsibility. Etc and so on.


Revolution is great when needed but we don't need it at this point.
Time for working together to resolve the issues is at hand and until we get there we will be stuck in this cycle of blame.


You know there is one thing I believe about Americans and that is that when we face adversity we pull together.

The blame game just needs to run it's course and show what it always shows that it doesn't help anyone ever, then we can get down to business.

LOL, at least blame the right person for the mess if you are going to play the ineffective blame game, geeezzzzz...lol

So, people should avoid getting involved, and let washington take care of them.

If you ever lived through tough times, such as storms, or floods, fires, etc., you will find that people help eachother. When pushed to the point where your neighbor needs help, you will. And vice versa.

There is corruption though. But the general body is just as corrupt and the government elected body.

But you can actually make a difference if 60% of your funding doesn't go to a centralized plan designed for 300 million citizens. Blanket plans only go so far. Any real help comes from us, not our government. You parents can't take care of your forever.

Kinda my point.... You listening?

The "community group" I am talking about is the whole country

Neighborhoods, cities, counties, states, country, world and universe, we are all neighbors.

I am not talking about revolution.

I am sick of the blame game, it's a distraction.

I am also sick of people thinking that leaders, elected or otherwise, need to run nearly every aspect of our lives.

Our country was formed under independence. This is why they spoke against a total democracy, as it is merely a mob rule.

A republic has certain rules, that cannot be changed. These are laws or restraints for the government itself, as well as the people. People are supposed to run their own lives. Your neighbors, even by popular vote, aren't supposed to be able to tell you what color to paint your house, or threaten to take your house away because you can't afford the property tax. In fact, income tax was very against our forefather's beliefs.


People, we need to start taking a little responsibility for ourselves. If you want to fight poverty, start helping those that are in poverty, not just those in washington.

Choice A: slavery

Choice B: independence

Yes, i understand.

But now we are getting into a management discussion.

When people in Florida can make decisions for people in Washington state, you are in trouble management-wise.

The natural order of things are as follows, Family, friends, neighbors (neighborhood), city, county, state, and THEN federal goverment.

Now, if any poverty immediately goes to the state, or federal government, you will have blanket policies that are supposed to help people. But everyone is unique in the help he or she needs. One size fits all, creates incentive to never get ahead, never become productive.

A society under this set of rules will come to an end, as the people become more dependent, and are less willing to work. Mathematics: When the demand exceeds productivity, people will starve, no matter how many government programs you start.

Maybe most people are so corrupt they need masters. It is comforting to work for someone that tells you they will always take care of you...

LOL, such dramatics...lol

We all live in a balance of independence and dependence. The only truly free country "government" is anarchy, right?

As long as you have a government that dictates, which is the job of any government, what citizens can or cannot do, you have dependence.

Independence or "freedom" comes with many responsibilities, one being the full responsibility of the government and what the government does. It is our responsibility to make the government work properly.

As for the forefathers and their desire to have a tax free country...well that was a wish but by the time they got done they realized they could not do it. Government has to have a money base to run. If the taxes are going to go into the government, they need to be helping the citizens of the country. So there you have helping programs. Which are a good thing.

When we became the United States of America, we were no longer little countries inside of a big country. We became one unit with working parts. No state should be able to leave the union nor should they be able to decide they are not going to follow the federal government laws and stipulations for the betterment of our citizens. I would consider that a reason for the military to intervene, like they did during the civil rights movement in states who defied the feds.

If they have an issue with it they need to go through their representatives and through our petition processes and through our laws.

Maybe we should learn how our country is run then... So we can keep our government in check. We definitely have lots of learning to do. Wish our schools would teach it a bit more thoroughly.


And BTW, no income tax does not mean no taxes. They didn't want politicians to control who got wealthy and who didn't. They were also careful about not overtaxing us.

Our forefathers foresaw almost every one of our historical events happening, before they happened. Pretty amazing when you get into it. But there is a reason for all the regulation they put on the federal government. There is a reason they spoke out against banks.

They saw all this happen before. I'm sure Thomas Jefferson would see the multibillion dollars of taxes going in to coporations as grounds for a revolution. Unfortunately we just accept it. So much for monopoly laws huh?

Our forefathers were amazing for their time, granted. I would have to see proof of these predictions because they could not foresee where we have gone. They could also not foresee the population vs government issues for example because they could not imagine that many people.

You have to give them credit for giving us the backbone to go from to begin with, of course, but what they gave us could not have worked in it's bare form today.

Would be interesting to see precentage wise, how many people worked for the government then and now.

I have a prediction that a much larger percentage works for our government now.

The higher the percentage, the rougher the economy becomes, because there are less people working to create wealth.

Another thing they could not have predicted was the intense increase in capital through the industrial revolution.

Driven, Here is some reading for you. Might interest you.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Global_Economy/KD21Dj02.html

I have great respect for your point of view and your research into this topic, I just still disagree about how HELPFUL people are with their neighbors. I dont think that because people are paying so much taxes, their natural inclination to help has been reduced. I think people dont help their neighbors much now and it wouldnt change if there was no government to do it. Noone is stopping us as citizens from paying taxes AND helping neighbors,, but it doesnt happen. ITs a culture of competition and staying ahead of the Joneses,,from what I have seen and heard at least.