So here you are paying a monthly rate for your health care. Let it be Blue Cross or any other health care provider in your area.

Now I don't know about you, but to pay $500 dollars a month for a family plan is pretty deep for some, I mean some even pay more then that per month.

Single health care coverage is around $100 to $200 or a bit more depending what you want, yet what gets me is that even though you pay this much you are not 100% health insured covered.

What is the deal with that?

Now the country goes crazy when taxes go up. I can understand that because we are at $12 trillion dollars in external debt? I mean come on where did all this money go? The FDA makes 1.3 trillion every quarter is what I was told! So they are cashing in a great sum each year aren't they.

Now I talk about taxes because I think it was one of the presidential candidates that suggested to just raise the taxes and everyone in the nation would be 100% health insured covered without having to pay anything ever!

Whooooaaaaa! Now hold on a minute many would say! That would be socialism or communism or dictatorshipiscm! Okay I made the last one up, but wouldn't that save alot of work when everyone has one health card issued to them to slide in any counter or hospital at any time to get the treatment they need.

I mean come on! A kid gets a heartattack falls over and is sent to the hospital and the parents are told later they need to come up with $50,000 dollars. Now the parents are doing whatever it takes to try to get this money together. Do you know what $50,000 is for most people in this nation? Yes 90% of the nation doesn't even earn that much a year!

So the family doesn't get the money and their child dies. Oh well too bad right! They should have paid $200 a month for somekind of health insurance that doesn't offer 100% coverage, yet they didn't or couldn't come up with the money to pay this.

So why not get rid of this huge package deals, proposals Congress makes, etc. etc. and just raise the taxes a few percent and issue cards for every citizen?

Yes every citizen.

But wait what about those who don't work? What should we do with them? They are not paying taxes and are not entitled! So many would say.

Of course many say that health care is a privilige. Other say it is a neccessity and not a privilige. Just like education, but I won't get into that now. Let us stick to health insurance shall we.

So here we are in a country divided on how the health insurance should be!

What will it take to ensure that every citizen gets health care provided to them without being in debt afterwords and in many cases in a financial ruin to not allow to live a life without worrying on how to pay back that debt?

There are countries in this world that have figured it out. Why can't we figure out a system that truly works best?

Okay now back to the citizens who don't work and pay taxes. What do we do with them?

Sorry went to get some coffee. lol

I was told that the richest people in the nation avoid paying taxes because they put their headquarters on tax exempt countries like the Cayman islands. Is this true? I mean why are rich people or corporations not paying their fair share of taxes?

I mean what about those billionaires. How much money do they need? How much money do you really need in a lifetime anyway? What about all that money you won't use when you pass away? Okay give it to your kids so they never have to work, but seriously look into this. I mean here is Bill Gates with 50 billion dollars. Okay he earned it fair and square. Good for him, but my question is "Is he paying taxes at all?" How do you know?

Now I am not saying that these rich people need to be humantarians or anything, for I am sure they do some kind of philanthropist work anyway, even if it is just sending cash to charities, but those who can't work should have a health care coverage also to be treated when needed. Wouldn't the rich who pay their fair share of taxes cover them? Could it cover them?

I mean if every status quo paid the same amount of taxe rate what should be the problem?

Explain to me what needs to be done and how it can be done?

Try telling that to the guy in Canada or Great Britain that has to wait a year for a colonoscopy.

In those two health " care " systems, if you aren't immediately dying or bleeding profusely, the wait times for normal procedures is stupifying.

Why can't we figure out the best system???

Do you really, truly think that the government, OUR government, is going to manage to put together a system that actually WORKS for everyone??

The very thought of our government, and the HUGE bureaucracy and massive amounts of red tape and inefficiency it involves, being able to come up with a Health Care system that actually works for everyone is just absurd.

I agree it is absurd that one has to wait days to get a treatment or appointment with a doctor in any country, especially if it is serious! Why are we waiting anyway? We shouldn't be? We should get treated immediately!

but how can we do this?

And the government! Okay I understand that maybe the government can be the problem. I mean they must have horrible accountants over there because 12 trillion dollars in debt isn't very pleasent to look at.

So here we are with a problem. Raising taxes is not a good idea many would say. Okay good. Now what do we do?

How can we make sure that everyone gets a health coverage that will 100% cover them when needed in any time of their life span?

What is the solution?

Should we look at countries that do have better solutions? France has a pretty darn good health system running over there the last time I went to visit.

but okay France is different in thinking. Something maybe Americans don't care for.

So what is the solution, or is there a solution?

Should we leave it as a privilige for Americans? Those who can afford it will get treated and those who don't we just shovel them off the road and throw in the river because they didn't have the money to get their treatment needed to stay alive?

We're not really waiting all that long. Some specialists have a waiting list for their services. But that's mainly because they are the best at what they do.



Heh. Well...look at the fact that their Health Care ideas are going to cost us anywhere from 800 billion to 1 trillion in MORE debt.



Considering that it already takes us several months each year JUST to get to the point where we aren't working just to pay taxes...no. Raising taxes isn't a good idea.



Not all that difficult, actually. Cover the people below a certain earnings level. For the people above that level..cover them if their coverage would cost them above a certain percentage of their earnings. Anyone above a certain earnings level provides their own coverage via an Insurance Company. Another solution to lowering insurance costs would be to allow the companies to compete with each other.



Ever heard the phrase " The grass is always greener..."???

France doesn't have NEARLY the population level this country has. France doesn't have upwards of 12 million people living there illegally.

The last I heard, the population in America is upwards of 300 million people. That's an awful lot of people for the government ( in all it's inefficient, bloated glory ) to try to cover.



Refer to my above comment.



I have yet to see anyone thrown into a ditch or lying by the side of the road....unless they chose to be there.

three things,,,

In the UK,,people WAITING for medical services isnt any more common than it is in America ,,the reasons are just different.

I dont think people choose to be in a ditch or lying on the side of the road.

We do have a problem with illegal immigrants that should be carefully dealt with but that can be done while figuring out a way for US citizens to have access to affordable healthcare.

Yes. The reasons for the waiting lists ARE different. One is because the people who have the waiting list are actually very busy because they are good at what they do and in limited supply.

The other is because the government pays for everything and considers some things " non essential " just like insurance companies.

How many people have you seen lying in a ditch??

I don't think an effective, efficient system CAN be done until the problem of illegals is remedied.

Seriously, I think one of the best ways to have costs come down would be to allow companies to compete with each other nationally rather than just regionally.

Blue Cross and a few others are the only choices a person has here in Michigan. There are no other companies allowed to try to get customers here.

Supply and demand would indicate that if there were 100's of companies allowed to compete for customers, the demand for each company wouldn't be as high. That would give the customer more power in choosing who they want to cover them. That, in turn, would drive the costs down because companies would have to work a lot harder to get those customers to choose them.

Funny, a friend of mine in Scotland didn't say the wait was that long. She's gone in for minor things the same day.

And I don't know about you, but around here we plan things far out and get appointments a month or two out at least. Mom's got the next 2 years scheduled with her neurologist. I had heart surgery 9 months after I found out about it.

Our family doctor is a joke for getting in for an immediate sickness. You'd have to be dead to get an appointment. I guess it depends on where you are?!?!

Now this I agree with 100%!

It probably does vary by region. My ex husband is brit and I lived there with him for a bit. So I am kind of quick on the draw when americans claim their health system is in any way inferior. If you knew all the things that ailed my husband,,,lol and not one of them came from his pocket directly and not one put him in any debt.

If you are THAT sick...you can go to the nearest hospital emergency room and get treatment. Whether you can pay for it that day or not. Whether you are insured or not. The hospital will bill you and the choice to pay or not is yours from there.

One of the problems is that there are millions of uninsured people using Emergency Rooms as their primary care physician.

Like I said in other threads, I am all for getting coverage to the people who need it most. By all means, get coverage for the people who simply can't afford it.

The problem is that people are not being treated and are left to die because they don't have the funds or insurance.

How can a country let that happen?


Then concerning France they pay their taxes just like America, but somehow can make sure that everyone living in the country are insured 100%.

The US with over 300 million people as opposed to 60 million should be able to fund enough money to give health insurance to everyone. I mean this country also has more millionares and billionares then any country in the world. If they pay their taxes also then why would health care be a problem.

There are patients that are dropped off on the street when they can't pay anymore of the hospital bills they had piled up on.

Now what should we do about that?



I think the problem is how we can ensure health care coverage for everyone. Some believe raising taxes to ensure everyone a health care plan. Some believe making a decision on income level determines the health care plan, and a merit of other idealogies are floating in the air wasting more time and more lives.

If we see a country that is doing a good job with its people regardless how big or small it is, we should not be arrogant and just say well it wouldn't work for us. We should maybe look into it and see what we can incorporate from it to perhaps make a health coverage plan that is 100% functional for everyone regardless of age, job, income level, race, past sicknesses, or not.

I mean here we are in a country that can deny you health care coverage if you show past sicknesses.

I think it is time to wake up Americans and see that health is not a privilige, but a neccessity for everyone regardless of where they come from illegal or not.

Take that up with your local " representative ".

Ask him or her why it is that we are one of the most heavily taxed peoples in the world, but they can't figure out how to use that money to take care of people here.

Ask him or her how it is that they can spend hundreds of millions of dollars giving people money to study stuff like the exact bodily functions involved in a mouse fart, but can't manage to make sure that people get taken care off when they really need it.

Many people have sent letters, tried to contact, and tried to understand from their represenatives and there are no results.

I think what is happening is the FDA will lose a tremendous amount of money if the health care becomes universal. I mean they make 1.2 trillion annually, or so it is said.

Now imagine that the US Citizen didn't have to pay anything per month for his health insurance is paid by his taxes deducted from his pay check. Everyone gets treated and less people are sick, don't need those prescription drugs or they are not sold anymore for high prices, and the country gets in gear of not being one of the heaviest overweight country in the world.

Was in not said that the health industries pay 1.4 million dollars per day with their lobbysists trying to make sure this health coverage doesn't go through.

Now I am not saying Obama has a great health coverage. Shoot it is how big? 814 pages long and not a single American knows what it entails? I mean why so many pages! That is ridiculous. Is it created to postpone a healthcare that will work 100% for everyone?

I just don't understand why this country that could be one of the best countries in the world to live in has to lack in such fundings or even cut down on health care and education. It is truly saddening and I hope for those days to come when this country gets itself out of the trench and really works on some social programs that help the people back onto their feet.

Concerning the illegal immigrant issue. I just don't understand how we cannot guard our borders to not allow illegal immigrants in.

I just feel that the government doesn't care about illegal immigrants at all. They let most in for they know they will do the dirty work for the country and then they penalize a money fine and make them legal or partially legal to continue work.

I mean come on! Don't you think the world's most advanced army and one of the biggest could stop illegal immigration if they wanted to?

Why aren't they? If we would have invested the money for tighter border control instead of losing it all on whatever making us in 12 trillion dollars in debt, we may have had somekind of order in this country.

I just think the government in reality wants more people to move in the country, illegal or not. They want them to work and pay taxes to add to the social security and other funds they can't seem to keep up with.

What do you think?

Right, and be billed quadruple the cost. Sorry, I'll run to the nearest feed store and shoot myself with penicillian. Far cheaper. Besides, in this area, the ER is fine, but there's no real followup for meds unless you get so badly sick again.

Another problem to address is alot of these hospitals are on the verge of bankruptcy. They are so in debt that they cut so many staff to try to save money, which leads to staff members doing extra hours and to bad performances.

How can we reverse this so that hospitals are not in debt, have enough staff members with regular shifts, and enough doctors to make sure patients don't wait so long to be treated?

How many people in the United States do not have health insurance?Last time I checked it was 40 million. Is this accurate?

Mention European health care to an American, and it probably conjures up a negative stereotype — high taxes, long waiting lines, rationed care.

It's not that way in Germany. Very little tax money goes into the system. The lion's share comes, as in America, from premiums paid by workers and employers to insurance companies.

German health benefits are very generous. And there's usually little or no wait to get elective surgery or diagnostic tests, such as MRIs. It's one of the world's best health care systems, visible in little ways that most Germans take for granted.

Checking In With An Old Friend

Juergen in der Schmitten was a medical student when I first met him 17 years ago. Now, he's a 42-year-old general practitioner in a suburb of Dusseldorf.

On one particular night, Juergen was the doctor on call for the region. Any German who needs after-hours care can call a central number and get connected to a doctor.

Around 11 p.m., a woman with a fever called Juergen. She wanted him to make a house call. They talked for maybe five minutes, in the end agreeing that she would come into his office in the morning.

A situation like this would be unlikely in the United States. Americans might not get through to a doctor at all, let alone have a discussion about whether the physician should make a house call in the middle of the night to treat a case of flu.

The Patients' Perspective

Sabina and Jan Casagrandes say they've had really good care from the German health system. And they've used it a lot.

Sabina is American, Jan is German. They live in a fourth-floor walkup with their two little girls in Cologne, an ancient city on the Rhine in western Germany.

"I've probably been very expensive for the health insurance system here," Sabina says. "When I was 33 years old, I had a giant lump on my neck all of a sudden, where your thyroid is. And it was a big tumor."

It took two operations to remove her cancer. Luckily it was curable with surgery and radiation. Sabina says she had the best care she could imagine.

"Then I came home to my little daughter, who I couldn't really lift up because of my neck having been cut open," Sabina says. "So I asked my doctor, 'What can I do?' And she said, 'Well, your health insurance will pay for someone to come help you in the house.'"

Sabina's health insurer paid a friend to shop, cook and even help care for the baby until Sabina was back on her feet. That's not unusual in Germany. In fact, under the country's system for long-term care, family members can choose to be paid for taking care of a frail elder at home if they want to avoid nursing home care.

Coverage For All

The health care system that took such good care of Sabina is not funded by government taxes. But it is compulsory. All German workers pay about 8 percent of their gross income to a nonprofit insurance company called a sickness fund. Their employers pay about the same amount. Workers can choose among 240 sickness funds.

Basing premiums on a percentage-of-salary means that the less people make, the less they have to pay. The more money they make, the more they pay. This principle is at the heart of the system. Germans call it "solidarity." The idea is that everybody's in it together, and nobody should be without health insurance.

"If I don't make a lot of money, I don't have to pay a lot of money for health insurance," Sabina says. "But I have the same access to health care that someone who makes more money has."

But she acknowledges that nearly 8 percent of her salary is a sizable bite.

"Yes, it's expensive. You know, it's a big chunk of your monthly income," Sabina says. "But considering what you can get for it, it's worth it."

Actually, it's about the same proportion of income that American workers pay, on average, if they get their health insurance through their job. The big difference is that U.S. employers pay far more, on average, than German employers do — 18 percent of each employee's gross income versus around 8 percent in Germany.

More Added Benefits In Germany

Moreover, German health insurance has more generous benefits than U.S. policies cover. There are never any deductibles, for instance, before coverage kicks in. And all Germans get the same coverage.

For instance, the Casagrandes' insurance covers an expensive medicine Jan needs for a chronic intestinal problem. He says if they moved to America, they might not be able to buy insurance at all because of their pre-existing conditions — a nonproblem in Germany.

"He says for himself — or for us — the health care system in the United States is the major reason why we have never moved there, and never will move there. Because both of us have chronic illnesses that have to have a lot of medical attention, and we would go broke," Sabina says, translating for Jan.

Jan adds something else. "It's also the No. 1 reason in the United States that people personally go bankrupt," Sabina translates, "which would never happen here ... never!"

Coverage For The Family

On the other side of Germany, in Berlin, we meet another couple who know both the American and German health systems.

Nicole and Chris Ertl own Tip Toe Shoes, a children's shoe shop in a well-off area of the German capital. The Ertls sell high-quality European shoes — tiny Italian sandals, French and Danish boots and clogs in wonderful colors.

Chris is from San Diego, Nicole is German. She also works part time as a physician therapist and gets her health care through her job like the great majority of Germans. Like the Casagrandes, she's happy with her coverage.

"It's a good deal!" she says. "It's really good because it's a package."

It's a package many Americans might envy. Nicole pays a premium of $270 a month for insurance that covers her children, too. Nicole pays a single $15 copayment once every three months to see her primary-care doctor — and another $15 a quarter to see each specialist, as often as she wants. She pays no copayments for her children's care —-and her insurance even covers her daughter's orthodontia bill.

"They always have good care," Nicole says, "because for kids, everything is free. The drugs, it's always free" until they turn 18.

Different Rules For The Self-Employed

But even though her insurance covers the kids, it doesn't cover her husband. Because Chris Ertl is self-employed, he has to buy insurance on his own, from a for-profit insurance company.

About one in 10 Germans buy this so-called "private" coverage. It's not just for people who are self-employed. Civil servants and anyone who makes more than $72,000 a year can opt out of the main system. It's a kind of safety valve for people who want more and can pay for it.

But most people don't opt out. Chris says that's because there's a fundamental difference in the way Germans view health care and the government's role — which, in Germany, means refereeing the system and making sure it's fair and affordable.

"The general opinion in Germany is always that the government will do it for us, everything will be OK," Chris says. "In the States, I think you grow up knowing that no one's going to help you do anything. If you want health care, go get it."

It's important to remember that the German government doesn't provide health care or finance it directly. It does regulate insurance companies closely — the nonprofits in the main system and the for-profits where Chris gets his coverage. So Chris' insurer can't raise his rates if he gets sick or jack up his premiums too much as he gets older. The government also requires insurers to keep costs down so things don't get too expensive.

"Where am I better off medically?" Chris says. "I would probably say Germany."

In some ways, Chis Ertl's coverage is better than his wife's. He gets his choice of top doctors — the chief of medicine, if he wants. If he goes into the hospital, he gets a private room. When he goes to the doctor, he gets a free cup of coffee and goes to the head of the line. All this embarrasses him — and annoys Nicole.

"When he goes to the doctor, he has a lot more service," she complains.

Germans really hate any hint of unfairness in health care. The fundamental idea is that everybody must be covered and, preferably, everybody should get equal treatment. So the fact that 10 percent or so can buy some perks is an irritant — something Germans complain about but manage to put up with.

But it's unthinkable that 48 million people wouldn't have health insurance at all — the situation in America. As an American, Chris thinks that's shameful. "It's terrible," he says. "It's unbelievable. It shouldn't happen."

Germans, he says, would never tolerate that. And their system has been working pretty well for 125 years.