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| Topic: Why order from Chaos? | |
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Edited by
Jeanniebean
on
Sun 11/01/09 01:19 AM
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So there was supposedly the Big Bang.
And chaos reined. But logically, chaos would have continued to rein in chaos. There is NO LOGICAL REASON OR PURPOSE for it not to. BUT life emerges from nothing, and order from chaos. Logically, this is impossible. So for you non-spiritual atheists, please explain, logically how and why this happened... WITHOUT CONSCIOUSNESS, WITHOUT MIND, WITHOUT INTELLIGENCE. |
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Edited by
BONEaFIED
on
Sun 11/01/09 01:46 AM
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So there was supposedly the Big Bang. And chaos reined. But logically, chaos would have continued to rein in chaos. There is NO LOGICAL REASON OR PURPOSE for it not to. BUT life emerges from nothing, and order from chaos. Logically, this is impossible. So for you non-spiritual atheists, please explain, logically how and why this happened... WITHOUT CONSCIOUSNESS, WITHOUT MIND, WITHOUT INTELLIGENCE.--------------------- I'M NOT NON-SPIRITUAL,,,BUT I'LL BET THERE WAS A BIG BANG WHEN I POPPED OUT. |
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So there was supposedly the Big Bang. And chaos reined. But logically, chaos would have continued to rein in chaos. There is NO LOGICAL REASON OR PURPOSE for it not to. BUT life emerges from nothing, and order from chaos. Logically, this is impossible. So for you non-spiritual atheists, please explain, logically how and why this happened... WITHOUT CONSCIOUSNESS, WITHOUT MIND, WITHOUT INTELLIGENCE. also not a non-spiritual atheist, but I feel that duality sprang up mostly due to boredom. |
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That is really an eternal question... However:
as far as I remember the high school Geometry, there's a postulate: TWO PARALLEL LINES -- EXTENDED TO INFINITY -- WOULD CROSS EVENTUALLY!!! By the same token, chaos will, eventually, acquire an ordor... We tend to assign a designer to anything beyond our comprehension! (For all I know, there might really be one since the Universe is really much too logical for something that's resulted from an explosion (i.e. Big Bang) -- unless it's been a Controled explosion! |
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Edited by
jrbogie
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Sun 11/01/09 05:25 AM
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well firstly, the big bang is only theory. we have evidence to suggest that an event likely occured but as with all theories it will never be proven. secondly, we don't know what happened precisely at the time of the big bang nor do we have evidence to show what took place before the big bang. you see bean, when physicists speak of the universe, they speak of the visible or observable universe. for all we know there may be other universes or even an infinate number of universes. or perhaps the last big bang was just one in a series of big bangs. bang, the universe expands. then the universe collapses upon itself. bang again. universe expands again. and on and on. we just don't know.
with the help of hubble and other recent developements we can look at events that occured just a few miliseconds after the big bang occured and our theories about the universe and it's beginning, if indeed it had a beginning and has not always existed, are being enhanced by these new observations. you keep getting hung up on the notion that atheists have the answsers to the origins of the universe, evolution, etc. atheism is not a science discipline. it's a theological position and nothing more. i suggested before that an understanding of the physical and quantum theories of the universe can be enjoyed in books by hawkings, sagan and other theoretical physicists. atheists are not in the least qualified to speak of such phenomena because they happen to not believe in gods or the supernatural. besides, we agnostics are feeling left out. pick on us now and then. 
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Define Chaos, define order, and now show why one does not follow naturally (logically) from the other . . .
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Edited by
Jeanniebean
on
Sun 11/01/09 06:31 AM
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Define Chaos, define order, and now show why one does not follow naturally (logically) from the other . . . Better than that, show me why order would naturally follow chaos. If you want a good example of chaos, come to my house.  If you want a good example of order, go to Monk's house or to the house of an obsessive compulsive orderly person. |
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Edited by
Bushidobillyclub
on
Sun 11/01/09 06:32 AM
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Define Chaos, define order, and now show why one does not follow naturally (logically) from the other . . . Better than that, show me why order would naturally follow chaos. If you want a good example of chaos, come to my house. If you want a good example of order, go to Monk's house or to the house of an obsessive compulsive orderly person. http://www.imho.com/grae/chaos/chaos.html |
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well firstly, the big bang is only theory. we have evidence to suggest that an event likely occured but as with all theories it will never be proven. secondly, we don't know what happened precisely at the time of the big bang nor do we have evidence to show what took place before the big bang. you see bean, when physicists speak of the universe, they speak of the visible or observable universe. for all we know there may be other universes or even an infinate number of universes. or perhaps the last big bang was just one in a series of big bangs. bang, the universe expands. then the universe collapses upon itself. bang again. universe expands again. and on and on. we just don't know. with the help of hubble and other recent developements we can look at events that occured just a few miliseconds after the big bang occured and our theories about the universe and it's beginning, if indeed it had a beginning and has not always existed, are being enhanced by these new observations. you keep getting hung up on the notion that atheists have the answsers to the origins of the universe, evolution, etc. atheism is not a science discipline. it's a theological position and nothing more. i suggested before that an understanding of the physical and quantum theories of the universe can be enjoyed in books by hawkings, sagan and other theoretical physicists. atheists are not in the least qualified to speak of such phenomena because they happen to not believe in gods or the supernatural. besides, we agnostics are feeling left out. pick on us now and then. Thank you for your answer here. I'm sorry for leaving you agnostics out. I guess I pose questions to 'atheists' because they appear to think they have all the answers. 
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Edited by
jrbogie
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Sun 11/01/09 06:39 AM
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well firstly, the big bang is only theory. we have evidence to suggest that an event likely occured but as with all theories it will never be proven. secondly, we don't know what happened precisely at the time of the big bang nor do we have evidence to show what took place before the big bang. you see bean, when physicists speak of the universe, they speak of the visible or observable universe. for all we know there may be other universes or even an infinate number of universes. or perhaps the last big bang was just one in a series of big bangs. bang, the universe expands. then the universe collapses upon itself. bang again. universe expands again. and on and on. we just don't know. with the help of hubble and other recent developements we can look at events that occured just a few miliseconds after the big bang occured and our theories about the universe and it's beginning, if indeed it had a beginning and has not always existed, are being enhanced by these new observations. you keep getting hung up on the notion that atheists have the answsers to the origins of the universe, evolution, etc. atheism is not a science discipline. it's a theological position and nothing more. i suggested before that an understanding of the physical and quantum theories of the universe can be enjoyed in books by hawkings, sagan and other theoretical physicists. atheists are not in the least qualified to speak of such phenomena because they happen to not believe in gods or the supernatural. besides, we agnostics are feeling left out. pick on us now and then. Thank you for your answer here. I'm sorry for leaving you agnostics out. I guess I pose questions to 'atheists' because they appear to think they have all the answers. well answers are the on thing we agnostics will never have. all other than what we experience ourselves is unknowable. such as the notion of a designer. |
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Define Chaos, define order, and now show why one does not follow naturally (logically) from the other . . . Better than that, show me why order would naturally follow chaos. If you want a good example of chaos, come to my house. If you want a good example of order, go to Monk's house or to the house of an obsessive compulsive orderly person. http://www.imho.com/grae/chaos/chaos.html Fascinating stuff. "Many scientists believe that twentieth century science will be known for only three theories: relativity, quantum mechanics, and chaos." |
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Define Chaos, define order, and now show why one does not follow naturally (logically) from the other . . . Better than that, show me why order would naturally follow chaos. If you want a good example of chaos, come to my house. If you want a good example of order, go to Monk's house or to the house of an obsessive compulsive orderly person. http://www.imho.com/grae/chaos/chaos.html Fascinating stuff. "Many scientists believe that twentieth century science will be known for only three theories: relativity, quantum mechanics, and chaos." After reading that article it seems that infinity and cause and effect rein in this universe, and chaos is simply part of the design or program or pattern, or what ever you want to call it. |
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Edited by
jrbogie
on
Sun 11/01/09 07:10 AM
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Define Chaos, define order, and now show why one does not follow naturally (logically) from the other . . . Better than that, show me why order would naturally follow chaos. If you want a good example of chaos, come to my house. If you want a good example of order, go to Monk's house or to the house of an obsessive compulsive orderly person. http://www.imho.com/grae/chaos/chaos.html Fascinating stuff. "Many scientists believe that twentieth century science will be known for only three theories: relativity, quantum mechanics, and chaos." hmmmmm. i agree that special and general relativity and quantum theory are plausibly the most important discoveries of all time, not only of the twentieth century, but which scientists consider chaos to be a theory? |
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So there was supposedly the Big Bang. And chaos reined. Well, I'm agnostic, but I can give an unbaised scientific view. If we accept the most widely accepted current theory of the Big Bang which is called Inflation Theory, then there was never a time during the Big Bang when chaos reined. The reason being quite simple. Inflation Theory has the Big Bang starting as a quantum fluctuation. So the quantum field and all of it's properties are assumed to pre-exist the Big Bang. The atoms did not form by happenstance choatic events, but instead they had already been pre-defined by the properties of the quantum field. So from my point of view there was never any chaos. The universe was pre-designed 'out of the box' so-to-speak. It's even self-assembling, so no instruction manual is required. Just sit back and wait and eventually you'll get what we see today. All the design work was already done even before it 'banged'. |
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hmmmmm. i agree that special and general relativity and quantum theory are plausibly the most important discoveries of all time, not only of the twentieth century, but which scientists consider chaos to be a theory? Actually there are quite a few scientists (albeit a minority compared with mainstream) that consider "Chaos Theory" to be a genuine 'theory'. And those scientist do put it right up there with QM and GR. However, many scienists never took it seriously simply because of the name "Chaos". As it turns out, that's a poorly chosen name anyways. It's not really the study of "Chaos" at all. It's just the study of extreme complexity that, at first sight, appears to be chaotic. Modern scientists are stating to rename it and called it "Complexity Theory".  A huge thing about "Chaos Theory", or "Complexity Theory" is that to hypothesizes a new concept called "Emergent Properties". And it even explains how they 'emerge'. However, there is much controversy about whether or not these, so-called "emergent properties" are any different from any other physical properties. They are just the results of form. And finally, these emergent properties come from things called "Strange Attractors" which are actually mathematical models. Of far more importance, these mathematical models utliamtely depend on a continuum. However, we already know that our universe is not a continuum, it's a quantum universe. So this brings into question whether this theory can even hold in a quantum universe. It necessarily must break down at the quantum level. But that's OK, even General Relativity breaks down at the quantum level too, but that doesn't stop it from remaining a pillar of modern science. |
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So there was supposedly the Big Bang. And chaos reined. But logically, chaos would have continued to rein in chaos. There is NO LOGICAL REASON OR PURPOSE for it not to. BUT life emerges from nothing, and order from chaos. Logically, this is impossible. So for you non-spiritual atheists, please explain, logically how and why this happened... WITHOUT CONSCIOUSNESS, WITHOUT MIND, WITHOUT INTELLIGENCE. Big bang is questionable anyway. But show where chaos ruled and also show where life comes from nothing. But before all of that, where did the designers come from if there is intelligent design? Who created the designers of the designers of the designers? God or designers cannot come from nothing either if your theory is correct so where do they come from and who made them.....etc.... into infinite. |
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So there was supposedly the Big Bang. And chaos reined. But logically, chaos would have continued to rein in chaos. There is NO LOGICAL REASON OR PURPOSE for it not to. BUT life emerges from nothing, and order from chaos. Logically, this is impossible. So for you non-spiritual atheists, please explain, logically how and why this happened... WITHOUT CONSCIOUSNESS, WITHOUT MIND, WITHOUT INTELLIGENCE. Big bang is questionable anyway. But show where chaos ruled and also show where life comes from nothing. But before all of that, where did the designers come from if there is intelligent design? Who created the designers of the designers of the designers? God or designers cannot come from nothing either if your theory is correct so where do they come from and who made them.....etc.... into infinite. "Even if my theory is correct??" What theory are you talking about anyway? I don't know if the 'big bang' is anything more than the imagined 'beginning of time' or even what it is. I'm just using the common terminology of 'the beginning of the universe.' Perhaps the designers were born. Perhaps this universe is just one of an infinite number of universes that we can't see. But infinity does have a major roll in that answer. |
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So there was supposedly the Big Bang. And chaos reined. Well, I'm agnostic, but I can give an unbaised scientific view. If we accept the most widely accepted current theory of the Big Bang which is called Inflation Theory, then there was never a time during the Big Bang when chaos reined. The reason being quite simple. Inflation Theory has the Big Bang starting as a quantum fluctuation. So the quantum field and all of it's properties are assumed to pre-exist the Big Bang. The atoms did not form by happenstance choatic events, but instead they had already been pre-defined by the properties of the quantum field. So from my point of view there was never any chaos. The universe was pre-designed 'out of the box' so-to-speak. It's even self-assembling, so no instruction manual is required. Just sit back and wait and eventually you'll get what we see today. All the design work was already done even before it 'banged'. You could be right about that. Chaos may not be chaos at all, but simply a creative cycle of growth. Perhaps the universe has its own DNA instructions. |
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So there was supposedly the Big Bang. And chaos reined. But logically, chaos would have continued to rein in chaos. There is NO LOGICAL REASON OR PURPOSE for it not to. BUT life emerges from nothing, and order from chaos. Logically, this is impossible. So for you non-spiritual atheists, please explain, logically how and why this happened... WITHOUT CONSCIOUSNESS, WITHOUT MIND, WITHOUT INTELLIGENCE. Big bang is questionable anyway. But show where chaos ruled and also show where life comes from nothing. But before all of that, where did the designers come from if there is intelligent design? Who created the designers of the designers of the designers? God or designers cannot come from nothing either if your theory is correct so where do they come from and who made them.....etc.... into infinite. "Even if my theory is correct??" What theory are you talking about anyway? I don't know if the 'big bang' is anything more than the imagined 'beginning of time' or even what it is. I'm just using the common terminology of 'the beginning of the universe.' Perhaps the designers were born. Perhaps this universe is just one of an infinite number of universes that we can't see. But infinity does have a major roll in that answer. The theory you presuppose by the tone of your questions. If the designers were born that implies life, where did that life come from? Designers have to have an origin too. When someone can explain to me how their life started differently from ours and make it make sense then I can consider a intelligent designer. |
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The fact that pattern comes from disorder is not surprising and requires nothing but natural, non personal forces.
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