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| Topic: Can Jesus or Mohammed exist without scripture? | |
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Edited by
Kleisto
on
Sun 07/17/11 07:23 PM
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People already overlook a million good reasons why not to believe in the Bible, i think if you took the bible out of existence people would still believe in it. It must just be a human trait to believe in something rather than nothing. That last line is exactly how the religions are operated to control. They promise the people certain things in the afterlife if they obey (though what those things are vary by the religion), and tell them they will have bad things happen to them if they don't obey. It works as both a comfort and fear mechanism in that way. Comfort in the idea of being somewhere nice if you do as you are told, and fear of what will happen if you do not. It's the perfect lie, as evidenced by how many have fallen for it. |
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a perfect lie,,,,,that there is no consequence to our actions besides the immmediate consequence
ONE perfectly logical alternative,, there are consequences to our actions besides the immediate consequences because of a need for balance in nature and the way it connects is all whether we call it 'karma', 'justice' , or 'religious dogma' |
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Edited by
Kleisto
on
Sun 07/17/11 07:32 PM
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a perfect lie,,,,,that there is no consequence to our actions besides the immmediate consequence ONE perfectly logical alternative,, there are consequences to our actions besides the immediate consequences because of a need for balance in nature and the way it connects is all whether we call it 'karma', 'justice' , or 'religious dogma' Yes there are consequences but only HERE. Therein lies the difference between religion and reality, religion uses God to get people to do what they want, reality doesn't need that. The consequences are built in, we don't need someone to tell us they exist for us to know they are there, much less dictate that they are this this and this when they could be all wrong. |
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Other kids. Example, my daughter told me this evening "Daddy, angels watch over me." I replied, "no they don't, who told you that?" Her cousin mentioned it the night before during a sleepover  (my sister is fairly religious, not a fundamentalist like my aunt, luckily). With no desire to tell her that her little cousin and my sister were crazy (I actually get along well with my sister, since she's not one to preach) and I hesitated ... I ended up just saying that sometimes people believe in silly things because they don't know how things really work.  That made think of an incident with my own son. The two kids from down the stree were over playing with my son. They were home schooled and once I heard the kid arguing so I went upstairs to see what was going on. My son said "they're telling me that its impossible for other life forms to exist in the universe" I just said "oh, why is that?" The answer was something like: "There can only be humans becaue Jesus was a human." (obviously I was still lost but son wasn't, he said) "mom that means that there can't be a race of Vulcans because they wouldn't have souls for Jesus to save" And they began to argue again and through the course of the argument I got the jest of the theory. - ya gotta love home schooling - Finally, and sternly, I told my son that Jennette and James were his friends and his guests and it was impolite to argue with them. At that point the two kids got up and headed for the door. I said they didn't have to go because the subject wouldn't be discussed anymore. The girl (about 11 yrs old) turned around and looking fearful said "no we really have to go and we won't be able to play with 'your son' anymore" My son felt bad and that's one of the reasons he took an interest in and began researching all kinds of religions. He made me proud. |
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is not knowing of something the same as something not existing? just asking No not at all. There are Christians who believe Jesus exists and there are probably some people in the world have never heard of Jesus of the bible. But a belief is not the same as something existing just as non-knowledge of the same belief is not the same thing as something not existing. Certainly the belief exists even if Jesus does not - but would the belief exist if there was no bible to embelish the belief whether Jesus had existed or not? |
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Other kids. Example, my daughter told me this evening "Daddy, angels watch over me." I replied, "no they don't, who told you that?" Her cousin mentioned it the night before during a sleepover (my sister is fairly religious, not a fundamentalist like my aunt, luckily). With no desire to tell her that her little cousin and my sister were crazy (I actually get along well with my sister, since she's not one to preach) and I hesitated ... I ended up just saying that sometimes people believe in silly things because they don't know how things really work. That made think of an incident with my own son. The two kids from down the stree were over playing with my son. They were home schooled and once I heard the kid arguing so I went upstairs to see what was going on. My son said "they're telling me that its impossible for other life forms to exist in the universe" I just said "oh, why is that?" The answer was something like: "There can only be humans becaue Jesus was a human." (obviously I was still lost but son wasn't, he said) "mom that means that there can't be a race of Vulcans because they wouldn't have souls for Jesus to save" And they began to argue again and through the course of the argument I got the jest of the theory. - ya gotta love home schooling - Finally, and sternly, I told my son that Jennette and James were his friends and his guests and it was impolite to argue with them. At that point the two kids got up and headed for the door. I said they didn't have to go because the subject wouldn't be discussed anymore. The girl (about 11 yrs old) turned around and looking fearful said "no we really have to go and we won't be able to play with 'your son' anymore" My son felt bad and that's one of the reasons he took an interest in and began researching all kinds of religions. He made me proud. I feel bad for the kids being raised by that parent, who made them feel so scared like that. |
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is not knowing of something the same as something not existing? just asking no, but not knowing is no reason to believe that something does in fact exist. therein lies the delimma believers in anything face when trying to convince me that their beliefs are fact. what is a belief if not confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous testing? when the religious folk discuss their beliefs, invariably they say thay one must have faith to believe as they do. without faith, i can never understand how they believe what they believe. nobody BELEVES in a theory such as the big bang or evolution at least no scientist does. we simply don't know them to be fact. but they are thought to be very plausible explanations of the beginnings of the universe and the ascension of the species as evidence for each theory has been tested using the strict scrutiny of the scientific method and have demonstrated predictable and repeatable results. so they remain highly plausible in the minds of scientists and of course a rank amature like myself. there is no such evidence to test the plausibility of god. so we don't know that the big bang happened or that evolution explains how humans got here but god requires faith to believe where the other explanations contain evidence that can and has been tested. |
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Well there are others from the time period too...I just don't think it is so cut and dried... =-=-=-=-=-= from the reference I linked... Josephus (A.D. 37 - c. A.D. 100) Josephus' Antiquities (early 2nd century A.D.) refers to Jesus in two separate passages. The common translation of the first passage, Book 18, Ch. 3, part 3, is disputed and is most likely from an altered source. F. F. Bruce has provided a more likely translation: Now there arose at this time a source of further trouble in one Jesus, a wise man who performed surprising works, a teacher of men who gladly welcome strange things. He led away many Jews, and also many of the Gentiles. He was the so-called Christ. When Pilate, acting on information supplied by the chief men around us, condemned him to the cross, those who had attached themselves to him at first did not cease to cause trouble, and the tribe of Christians, which has taken this name from him is not extinct even today. The translations of this passage are discussed in Josephus: Testimonium Flavianum from Jesus.com.au. The second passage is from Book 20, Ch. 9, part 1: ...so he assembled the sanhedrim of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others, [or, some of his companions]; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned... (Note: The Antiquities can be found at several different sites, including the Christian Classics Ethereal Library, Perseus Digital Library and Crosswalk.com) Tacitus (c. A.D. 55 - c. A.D. 117) Annals, book XV: Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Suetonius (c. A.D. 69 - c. A.D. 140) Lives of the Caesars - Claudius, sec. 25: He banished from Rome all the Jews, who were continually making disturbances at the instigation of one Chrestus. Lives of the Caesars - Nero, sec. 16 Punishment was inflicted on the Christians, a class of men given to a new and mischievous superstition. Julius Africanus (c. 160 - c. 240) Chronography, XVIII refers to writings by Thallus and Phlegon concerning the darkness during the Crucifixion: On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun...Phlegon records that, in the time of Tiberius Caesar, at full moon, there was a full eclipse of the sun from the sixth hour to the ninth - manifestly that one of which we speak. Origen (c. 185 - c. 254) In Against Celsus, Origen quotes Celsus, a second-century skeptic, on Jesus. Celsus' view of Christians and Christianity, an article from Bluffton College, contains relevant excerpts. Pliny the Younger (c. 62 - c. 113) Letters, 10.96-97 records Pliny's dealings with Christians =-=-=-=-= BTW, I just closed my Bible. Did the 10 Commandments cease to exist yet? Or are they still there?! We've been through this list before: http://mingle2.com/topic/show/305204?page=13 And except for the possibly doctored translation on that website, none mentioned Jesus by name and even the self-proclaimed "honorable" Tacitus named the Christians as terrorists and instigators of violence. The point is there are multiple historical documents which relate a story of Christ independently and which date from the time period contemporary with the Biblical description. So there is certainly some evidence. One cannot say that there is no historical documentation of Christ except in the Bible. Dance around it all you want. Don't take that website. Just look up the original references. Use any translation you like. BTW, I just closed my Bible. Did the 10 Commandments cease to exist yet? Or are they still there?!  |
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Example: if you believe in Jesus, how do you think you came by the beliefs you hold if not from the bible? Gotta more or less ask that one about Columbus and Canadian History book too. If a native discovered Newfoundland first, do you suppose his name would've been in history books? And then there was Jacques Cartier -- they had to throw a Frenchman in there. The English and French have been on opposite sides of the invisible border ever since. |
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Right, we read, we are taught by others, and we either trust in the integrity of those sources or we do not...
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