Community > Politics, Current News & Events

Previous 1 2 3 4 Next

Topic: Capitalism and Socialism
oldkid46 Joined Fri 02/09/18 Posts: 1704	Fri 02/01/19 07:41 AM Edited by oldkid46 on Fri 02/01/19 07:42 AM
An article with a lot of common sense in it! https://www.barrons.com/articles/an-interview-with-home-depot-co-founder-ken-langone-51549026000

msharmony Joined Mon 08/31/09 Posts: 61041	Fri 02/01/19 01:12 PM
Capitalism and Socialism in perfect forms are both things that can 'work'. the problem is that in any system with humans there is GREED, which leads to some people having the bulk of the wealth, regardless of the intentions. There is nothing wrong when there is enough to go around, with ensuring at a humane level that everyone has the basics for survival, like shelter, food, water, et cetera. The problem is that humans are left to decide how little is BASIC and who 'merits' more than BASIC and how much more they merit, so it falls short of being a truly equal society and the haves end up ensuring that they have enough extra and the BASIC folks so little, that there is going to be an entitlement of privilege and superiority that divides the two. There is also nothing wrong when there is enough to go around, with an expectation that people work. The problem is, once again, where humans are concerned, the need for superiority creeps into what is seen as 'working' that merits survival and earnings, and who decides the financial value of that 'work'. The human element in any system is what keeps it from running perfectly. But both socialism and capitalism are, in their ideal, potentially positive systems.

Redrider1500 Joined Wed 04/25/18 Posts: 865	Fri 02/01/19 01:40 PM
Capitalism and Socialism in perfect forms are both things that can 'work'. the problem is that in any system with humans there is GREED, which leads to some people having the bulk of the wealth, regardless of the intentions. There is nothing wrong when there is enough to go around, with ensuring at a humane level that everyone has the basics for survival, like shelter, food, water, et cetera. The problem is that humans are left to decide how little is BASIC and who 'merits' more than BASIC and how much more they merit, so it falls short of being a truly equal society and the haves end up ensuring that they have enough extra and the BASIC folks so little, that there is going to be an entitlement of privilege and superiority that divides the two. There is also nothing wrong when there is enough to go around, with an expectation that people work. The problem is, once again, where humans are concerned, the need for superiority creeps into what is seen as 'working' that merits survival and earnings, and who decides the financial value of that 'work'. The human element in any system is what keeps it from running perfectly. But both socialism and capitalism are, in their ideal, potentially positive systems. You didn't read that article very well, did you?

Toodygirl5 Joined Fri 10/26/12 Posts: 14432	Fri 02/01/19 01:48 PM
Socialism is what this Country is headed for, with all the opposition against our President .

msharmony Joined Mon 08/31/09 Posts: 61041	Fri 02/01/19 02:58 PM
Capitalism and Socialism in perfect forms are both things that can 'work'. the problem is that in any system with humans there is GREED, which leads to some people having the bulk of the wealth, regardless of the intentions. There is nothing wrong when there is enough to go around, with ensuring at a humane level that everyone has the basics for survival, like shelter, food, water, et cetera. The problem is that humans are left to decide how little is BASIC and who 'merits' more than BASIC and how much more they merit, so it falls short of being a truly equal society and the haves end up ensuring that they have enough extra and the BASIC folks so little, that there is going to be an entitlement of privilege and superiority that divides the two. There is also nothing wrong when there is enough to go around, with an expectation that people work. The problem is, once again, where humans are concerned, the need for superiority creeps into what is seen as 'working' that merits survival and earnings, and who decides the financial value of that 'work'. The human element in any system is what keeps it from running perfectly. But both socialism and capitalism are, in their ideal, potentially positive systems. You didn't read that article very well, did you? What about my opinion makes you think I didn't read the article, which was also about someone's opinion?

msharmony Joined Mon 08/31/09 Posts: 61041	Fri 02/01/19 02:59 PM
Socialism is what this Country is headed for, with all the opposition against our President . Our country makes progress in some areas and needs progress in others, just like it has since its founding.

IgorFrankensteen Joined Thu 10/01/09 Posts: 5444	Fri 02/01/19 03:35 PM
An article with a lot of common sense in it! https://www.barrons.com/articles/an-interview-with-home-depot-co-founder-ken-langone-51549026000 Actually, it's a lot of drivel. Boiler plate rich-guy-who-loves-himself stuff. He doesn't know what ACTUALLY happened anywhere else, he just repeats common anti-socialist propaganda. Using Venezuela as a PRIMARY example of socialism in reality, is no more valid than using a horrifyingly corrupt capitalist country, as your [primary representation of what all capitalism is. And notice that through all of his warm and loving words about seeing to the best interests of all people, he proposes absolutely NOTHING AT ALL be done to actually make that happen. Sorry, it's a TERRIBLE article to use to promote capitalism.

Toodygirl5 Joined Fri 10/26/12 Posts: 14432	Fri 02/01/19 04:02 PM
Socialism is what this Country is headed for, with all the opposition against our President . Our country makes progress in some areas and needs progress in others, just like it has since its founding. No progress with Leftist blocking it !

tombraider Joined Wed 09/12/07 Posts: 5042	Fri 02/01/19 07:00 PM
Until we get rid of the Deep State the only thing we will be looking at is globalism..

oldkid46 Joined Fri 02/09/18 Posts: 1704	Fri 02/01/19 07:07 PM
An article with a lot of common sense in it! https://www.barrons.com/articles/an-interview-with-home-depot-co-founder-ken-langone-51549026000 Actually, it's a lot of drivel. Boiler plate rich-guy-who-loves-himself stuff. He doesn't know what ACTUALLY happened anywhere else, he just repeats common anti-socialist propaganda. Using Venezuela as a PRIMARY example of socialism in reality, is no more valid than using a horrifyingly corrupt capitalist country, as your [primary representation of what all capitalism is. And notice that through all of his warm and loving words about seeing to the best interests of all people, he proposes absolutely NOTHING AT ALL be done to actually make that happen. Sorry, it's a TERRIBLE article to use to promote capitalism. For those willing to participate and put out their effort, they need nothing to make their life great; for those unwilling, they need socialism and hope whoever is managing the socialism is willing to provide for all their needs.

oldkid46 Joined Fri 02/09/18 Posts: 1704	Fri 02/01/19 07:09 PM
Capitalism and Socialism in perfect forms are both things that can 'work'. the problem is that in any system with humans there is GREED, which leads to some people having the bulk of the wealth, regardless of the intentions. There is nothing wrong when there is enough to go around, with ensuring at a humane level that everyone has the basics for survival, like shelter, food, water, et cetera. The problem is that humans are left to decide how little is BASIC and who 'merits' more than BASIC and how much more they merit, so it falls short of being a truly equal society and the haves end up ensuring that they have enough extra and the BASIC folks so little, that there is going to be an entitlement of privilege and superiority that divides the two. There is also nothing wrong when there is enough to go around, with an expectation that people work. The problem is, once again, where humans are concerned, the need for superiority creeps into what is seen as 'working' that merits survival and earnings, and who decides the financial value of that 'work'. The human element in any system is what keeps it from running perfectly. But both socialism and capitalism are, in their ideal, potentially positive systems. MsH, great insight into the human condition and the reality of life!!

person L Joined Sat 02/24/18 Posts: 183	Fri 02/01/19 09:49 PM
socialism is a by-product of capitalism capitalism makes things more available and affordable = consumerism consumerism creates debit though desire = socialism hedonism !!

msharmony Joined Mon 08/31/09 Posts: 61041	Fri 02/01/19 10:14 PM
Capitalism and Socialism in perfect forms are both things that can 'work'. the problem is that in any system with humans there is GREED, which leads to some people having the bulk of the wealth, regardless of the intentions. There is nothing wrong when there is enough to go around, with ensuring at a humane level that everyone has the basics for survival, like shelter, food, water, et cetera. The problem is that humans are left to decide how little is BASIC and who 'merits' more than BASIC and how much more they merit, so it falls short of being a truly equal society and the haves end up ensuring that they have enough extra and the BASIC folks so little, that there is going to be an entitlement of privilege and superiority that divides the two. There is also nothing wrong when there is enough to go around, with an expectation that people work. The problem is, once again, where humans are concerned, the need for superiority creeps into what is seen as 'working' that merits survival and earnings, and who decides the financial value of that 'work'. The human element in any system is what keeps it from running perfectly. But both socialism and capitalism are, in their ideal, potentially positive systems. MsH, great insight into the human condition and the reality of life!!

IgorFrankensteen Joined Thu 10/01/09 Posts: 5444	Fri 02/01/19 11:26 PM
An article with a lot of common sense in it! https://www.barrons.com/articles/an-interview-with-home-depot-co-founder-ken-langone-51549026000 Actually, it's a lot of drivel. Boiler plate rich-guy-who-loves-himself stuff. He doesn't know what ACTUALLY happened anywhere else, he just repeats common anti-socialist propaganda. Using Venezuela as a PRIMARY example of socialism in reality, is no more valid than using a horrifyingly corrupt capitalist country, as your [primary representation of what all capitalism is. And notice that through all of his warm and loving words about seeing to the best interests of all people, he proposes absolutely NOTHING AT ALL be done to actually make that happen. Sorry, it's a TERRIBLE article to use to promote capitalism. For those willing to participate and put out their effort, they need nothing to make their life great; for those unwilling, they need socialism and hope whoever is managing the socialism is willing to provide for all their needs. I'm not arguing for or against socialism or capitalism. I just read the article, and noted that it was the same sort of thing I've seen from certain kinds of people throughout my life. Lots of very nice chat about how it would be nice if rich employers would behave responsibly and with attention to their employees, vague unsupported pronouncements about how magically wonderful competition is, careful avoidance of even a hint that the "be nice" ideas be anything but voluntary, and then a bunch of unsupported assertions to the effect that certain other people (anyone who supports any other approach) are actively trying to destroy everyone's lives. As I think msharmony suggests, if we take the idealized notions of how capitalism can work, when all participants are saintly and wise, then we could have economic heaven on earth. But then, with those same saintly and wise people in charge of a more socialized approach, everything could be great. The thing is, the same thing could be said of a classic benevolent dictatorship. What I find upsetting about this, and most similar diatribes about the natural wonders of capitalism, is that it quietly ignores the natural negative consequences of a world where only those CAPABLE of working in lucrative fields, will have a chance at a pleasant life. The physically and mentally handicapped are ignored, as are children and the no longer able to work elderly. No way to insure that anyone who DOES work, and work hard, will be rewarded FAIRLY for that work, and not cheated by the people in a position to dictate the lowest return on labor that they can force people to accept. Just a lot of cheerful notions of how in an idealized (i.e. non-existent) world, free market capitalism allows nice stuff to happen.

oldkid46 Joined Fri 02/09/18 Posts: 1704	Sat 02/02/19 06:57 AM
With a capitalistic society we need to acknowledge that all people do not have the same capability and adjust our expectations based on that. As MsH says, we need to evaluate where that basic standard of living should be. We have done that to some extent with our social welfare programs. Some would argue they are too generous while others that they are not generous enough. I think the real issue revolves around what we should demand from people as their contribution to their own well being. Should we expect all students to graduate from high school? We know that job opportunities for drop outs are very limited and becoming more so. Should we provide different post high school educational paths based on learning ability? Should we expect adults to actually get up and put in a 40 hour work week? What else should society expect? These are the conversations we need to have more of to define that line between socialism and capitalism. As a society, we need to help supply that basic standard of living for those who cannot for themselves yet not supply it for those who could but are unwilling. The challenge is defining that basic standard of living and who should be expected to provide it for themselves.

tombraider Joined Wed 09/12/07 Posts: 5042	Sat 02/02/19 07:50 AM Edited by tombraider on Sat 02/02/19 08:14 AM
As far a graduating from high school..it seems rather redundant to ask people to go through a common core curriculum which is designed to dumb you down and graduate..Now the UN is trying to take over education which appears to be nothing more than an attempt to brain wash our children to have a globalist attitude.. From our stand point we look at the basic views of the right v.left..but the one entity we fail to see as we disagree among ourselves is that we are too busy with each other when it's those who go unnoticed lurking in the shadows that we should be uniting against..This is the way "THEY" designed it.. It doesn't matter what we feel we may achieve among ourselves when it's those in the shadows who will override and rule against any accomplishments we are attempting to make.This is a 3 pronged situation that we need to be aware of We have a left leaning ideology with what appears to be a socialist agenda,we have the right leaning ideology who are trying to maintain a democracy ..and then we have the Deep State who is embedded in both parties who are trying to over rule both parties and incorporate their globalist ideology and rule over all . .And unfortunately we will fight among ourselves while "THEY" are busy in the shadows hidden from our sight..so I don't see either party achieving anything until we get rid of the Deep State..because it's not going to matter what we do ..because neither side will win..The globalist will..because they will remain unnoticed and unimpeded to achieve their agenda..while we fight among ourselves

oldkid46 Joined Fri 02/09/18 Posts: 1704	Sat 02/02/19 08:50 AM
As far a graduating from high school..it seems rather redundant to ask people to go through a common core curriculum which is designed to dumb you down and graduate..Now the UN is trying to take over education which appears to be nothing more than an attempt to brain wash our children to have a globalist attitude.. From our stand point we look at the basic views of the right v.left..but the one entity we fail to see as we disagree among ourselves is that we are too busy with each other when it's those who go unnoticed lurking in the shadows that we should be uniting against..This is the way "THEY" designed it.. It doesn't matter what we feel we may achieve among ourselves when it's those in the shadows who will override and rule against any accomplishments we are attempting to make.This is a 3 pronged situation that we need to be aware of We have a left leaning ideology with what appears to be a socialist agenda,we have the right leaning ideology who are trying to maintain a democracy ..and then we have the Deep State who is embedded in both parties who are trying to over rule both parties and incorporate their globalist ideology and rule over all . .And unfortunately we will fight among ourselves while "THEY" are busy in the shadows hidden from our sight..so I don't see either party achieving anything until we get rid of the Deep State..because it's not going to matter what we do ..because neither side will win..The globalist will..because they will remain unnoticed and unimpeded to achieve their agenda..while we fight among ourselves And some people are not interested in fighting with each other. While we may have very different opinions, we are intelligent enough to discuss our problems and create agreeable solutions that actually can work. The real source of the conflict is the uninformed electorate that is manipulated by the politicians and those with their own agenda. This is exactly what Russia did in the 2016 election with social media that many people believed. The fools of society are easily misled!

msharmony Joined Mon 08/31/09 Posts: 61041	Sat 02/02/19 10:34 AM
socialism- a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole. capitalism-an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state. globalism-the operation or planning of economic and foreign policy on a global basis. I believe taking the best from all three is not a bad idea. Government that runs on tax revenue therefore allows 'community' ownership of some things. the 'fair market' that allows competition and random profit seeking for citizens allows 'capitalism' to flourish and the necessary interactions that mobility and technology have created for global interaction make it necessary for countries not to operate in a vaccuum as if thre is no world beyond their borders, which is where globalism is also important. I really think its a minority fringe, who are pushing for an exclusive form of any of these structures in this country. But I do think there is a louder voice coming from those who are insisting there are.

petenh Joined Thu 07/26/18 Posts: 206	Sun 02/03/19 03:39 PM
I read the article, and I have read all the comments here. First, the article is basically an interview with an author who wrote a book. As I believe Igor stated, it is a puff piece with an old dude, and if the interviewer was really hard-hitting, she might have called Mr Langone out on a couple of his "mis-statements", the first one being when Langone said "But look at what [Bill] Gates created; Jeff Bezos, the guy from Google, Home Depot, Walmart. Hey, we didn’t just get rich; we helped a lot of other people live better lives." First, Jeff Bezos is is the major COMPETITOR to the folks at Google. Second, Home Depot and especially Walmart have created the American sweat shop, where the employees are paid at the very bottom of the barrel. Anyone want to try to own a home, pay their utilities, try to raise a kid on a Walmart salary? 2o years ago I tried. Home Depot at its inception doctored their books and counted empty boxes as inventory to make the books look good (anybody who worked at The Home Depot 29 years ago heard the stories in orientation of Bernie and Art... Funny how Ken says he was a founder, but we never had a mention of HIM) THD and Walmart used "inferior Chinese crap tools" and the like to undercut good American goods... I had loyal American workers who refused to use said Chinese crap, preferring to use American-made tools, like Stanley. (If I brought a tool to their job site with "China" stamped on it, they would not use it) Most "American" toolmakers since then have stopped manufacturing domestically; they could no longer keep up with the quality of their brands and match the price at THD. THD and Walmart led the way for good manufacturing jobs to go to China, and I don't think Stanley even has an American tool plant anymore. This proves MsHarmony's point that GREED is a killer of many things, capitalism included. Lying about inventory on hand, filling the steel in the stores with empty boxes... hmmm, I am thinking that a lot of other American firms saw that "If it is good enough for THD, let's try it here" Bernie Ebbers of WorldCom (I used to call him "Uncle Bernie" in meetings) is still doing Federal time because of the shaky accounting practices the MCI folks convinced him "was the way everyone does it now". WorldCom was arguably the first of many firms whose failures, based on "Home Depot accounting" caused some serious crap in our economy. Oh, and watch the Enron documentaries to see how Enron's deception can be traced directly to the George W Bush White House. So now greed is cool. It is OK to start things like airlines and universities, bankrupt them, screw the little folks (or as Ken Langone says " Like it or not, we’re not all created equal, OK?" That hit me as a little out of step with what our founding fathers believed when THEY set up this 243-year old capitalist experiment). I mean, casinos basically PRINT money, as a result of human greed; tell me how ONE man can BANKRUPT four casinos? Greed, deception, dishonesty... It is not the LEFT, Ms Toody, who has been slowly killing this country, it is the greed of members of the Right who has gotten us here, and the poster child for greed and dishonesty is at the helm. I also question in the article how Mr Langone has such a bad taste about socialism, but knows so little about how it works. He can't name a place where it has not succeeded? I think his book was misnamed, it should have been "I Love GREED and Screwin my Employees"

oldkid46 Joined Fri 02/09/18 Posts: 1704	Mon 02/04/19 09:11 AM
I read the article, and I have read all the comments here. First, the article is basically an interview with an author who wrote a book. As I believe Igor stated, it is a puff piece with an old dude, and if the interviewer was really hard-hitting, she might have called Mr Langone out on a couple of his "mis-statements", the first one being when Langone said "But look at what [Bill] Gates created; Jeff Bezos, the guy from Google, Home Depot, Walmart. Hey, we didn’t just get rich; we helped a lot of other people live better lives." First, Jeff Bezos is is the major COMPETITOR to the folks at Google. Second, Home Depot and especially Walmart have created the American sweat shop, where the employees are paid at the very bottom of the barrel. Anyone want to try to own a home, pay their utilities, try to raise a kid on a Walmart salary? 2o years ago I tried. Home Depot at its inception doctored their books and counted empty boxes as inventory to make the books look good (anybody who worked at The Home Depot 29 years ago heard the stories in orientation of Bernie and Art... Funny how Ken says he was a founder, but we never had a mention of HIM) THD and Walmart used "inferior Chinese crap tools" and the like to undercut good American goods... I had loyal American workers who refused to use said Chinese crap, preferring to use American-made tools, like Stanley. (If I brought a tool to their job site with "China" stamped on it, they would not use it) Most "American" toolmakers since then have stopped manufacturing domestically; they could no longer keep up with the quality of their brands and match the price at THD. THD and Walmart led the way for good manufacturing jobs to go to China, and I don't think Stanley even has an American tool plant anymore. This proves MsHarmony's point that GREED is a killer of many things, capitalism included. Lying about inventory on hand, filling the steel in the stores with empty boxes... hmmm, I am thinking that a lot of other American firms saw that "If it is good enough for THD, let's try it here" Bernie Ebbers of WorldCom (I used to call him "Uncle Bernie" in meetings) is still doing Federal time because of the shaky accounting practices the MCI folks convinced him "was the way everyone does it now". WorldCom was arguably the first of many firms whose failures, based on "Home Depot accounting" caused some serious crap in our economy. Oh, and watch the Enron documentaries to see how Enron's deception can be traced directly to the George W Bush White House. So now greed is cool. It is OK to start things like airlines and universities, bankrupt them, screw the little folks (or as Ken Langone says " Like it or not, we’re not all created equal, OK?" That hit me as a little out of step with what our founding fathers believed when THEY set up this 243-year old capitalist experiment). I mean, casinos basically PRINT money, as a result of human greed; tell me how ONE man can BANKRUPT four casinos? Greed, deception, dishonesty... It is not the LEFT, Ms Toody, who has been slowly killing this country, it is the greed of members of the Right who has gotten us here, and the poster child for greed and dishonesty is at the helm. I also question in the article how Mr Langone has such a bad taste about socialism, but knows so little about how it works. He can't name a place where it has not succeeded? I think his book was misnamed, it should have been "I Love GREED and Screwin my Employees" spoken like a true socialist!