Madison--any chance that you are just an anti-capitalist? You seem to be angrier with the larger issue here. I'm starting to wonder of President Bush isn't just the vehicle to your bigger issue of not really being all that fond of our capitalist republic.

-Drew

so what happened during Clinton's term?

I verry disapointed in the republic at this time drew being that I think umerika should give democracy a try sometime

nothing wrong with being disappointed...I'm not thrilled with things either but blaming one president and defending others isn't the answer. The ecomony started going down during Clinton...and Bush (no pun intended) couldn't get it up

would you like to point out were I defended clinton? this is the CURRENT EVENTS section of the forum after all, however the past does at time need to be looked into to gain perspective but you certainly cannot lay the massive debt created by BUsh and his clan on clinton nor can you blame clinton for the disaster in Iraq, however clinton does share the blame for NAFTA

But we are not a democracy, madison. We are in fact a Republic so you are either going to have to warm to that or vote to tear our Constitution up in favor of something that reads very differently.

-Drew

Yes drew I know that but like I said being that we are the biggest exporter of the idea of democracy even at the point of a gune if we have to, we should give it a try

Well I think that the idea behind the export in this case is democratic ideals, but I understand your point. We just differ on the causes of some of our current messes.

Drew

IMO
We are all to blame for the position we are in this country and in the world. We as idividuals and as a country have developed such an entitlement mentality that we are now paying for those entitlements that we demand. That being said, this country was founded by those who questioned authority and fought against what they felt was unfair and oppressive practices. So to those who say "if you don't like it, leave it", I say to you, you leave it! Because if we do'nt wake up and realize that special interest runs this country and determines the course of actions, it's all going to crumble around us.
Perfect example, in the city of Oklahoma City, there is the I40 crosstown which is literally crumbling beneath the vehicles that cross over it. There is a plan to replace it. They've been working on the plan for at least 10 years now. But when the Hornets went back to New Orleans, OKC set it's sights to bringing another NBA team there. In the last 2 years, they have secured the money (millions) to update a facility that is fairly new anyway, so that an NBA team can come here. The fairly new, less than 10 year old, buiilding, that was state of the art when built, is not good enough for the NBA. Now this would be ok if every OKC citizen could afford to buy a ticket to the games, or if every OKC citizen was going to benefit from having an IBA team here. But I have a hard time believing that the revenue from an NBA team is going to be so great that it improves the lives of most people in OKC. The I40 crosstown is considered the crossroad of America. It carries all kinds of goods and services to millions of Americans everyday. Were is our priority here?
Now, applying this antecdot to the country, what have we benefited from the war in Iraq? How has it made us as a country better? We are no safer than we were before 9/11! And, Bush IS responsible, as Clinton was, and Bush before him, and so on and son on, that's his job to be responsible, as well as the Congress. But, if you have a job, you should understand that when the boss wants something, whether it benefits the greater good, right or wrong, everyone under the boss falls in line. The err of their ways is only discovered after the fact. We, as employees, may not be able to change that. We, as citizens of the United States of America, must! Neither McCain, Obama, nor Clinton is going to make the difference. They're only clones of the status quo. No matter which one wins, we in for a rough 5 more years. Maybe next time, if there is a next time, we'll get our priorities straight and be smarter!

very well said noble

Thanks! Every once in a while I have a moment of clarity! Nan

maybe some day we will come down there to argentina or whatever third world nation your living in and liberate it to so that you too old foul friend my excersize your "right" to vote and speak your mind at the ballot box, provided of course those are truly free elections and not some mock excersize.
I for one am glad your gone, please, and dont take this the wrong way....dont come back.


peace

If you come it will be uninvited and unwelcomed as is your presence in most of the world today,
Funny that YOU would be mentioning free elections and mock exercises..considering your own president won his first term in a mock and fraudulent election...but finger point all you want to...this little "3rd world country" is a gem in my heart and my only regret was not coming home sooner...

the election is a matter of opinion. There is nothing wrong with being proud of where you live.

but who does the world turn to when they are in trouble?

I am not sure who you are referring to but I know Iraq did not turn to us when they were in trouble, we have been added to their trouble.

I'm referring to the other countries like france, russia etc

No Iraq didn't ask us but we went for other reasons...such as Hussein violating the sanctions put on him and he needed to be taken out for his treatment of his people. I am referring to the countries under attack by someone else

Isn't it funny how accepting some are of the change of the reason we went there. The reason we went there has changed about 3-4 times since the war started. First WMDs, none found, so Alqaeda connection, none found, etc and so on and now we are down to the UN resolutions that did not matter to us for 20 years but now suddenly they are convenient.

Anyway. Nan is correct, we either take our country back, we the people, or we suffer this same fate every single time.

I have never changed my beliefs on why we went there so I'm not sure who you are referring to

They said from the start that he violated the United Nations sanctions

my personal reason is because he was torturing and murdering his own people.

And I do believe just because they didn't find WMD...doesn't mean it wasn't there. Hussein murdered masses at one time. sorry but I think that is WMD

Again Saddam and the UN sanctions have been the same for 20 years or so and we are the reason Saddam was in power in the first place plus we have used him as an ally on occasions so he was not the tyrant to us on all those occasions but suddenly NOW he is, we cannot have it both ways you know.

putting him in power was a mistake but the sanctions haven't been lifted. and he did violate those...the UN even agreed. They just didn't agree about the WMD

so it's not having it both ways. It's making a mistake of helping him get there and he chose to violated the UN sanctions time and time again and put off and made excuses.