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| Topic: A just world? What is your view | |
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Do you think we live in a "just" world? What goes around comes around, People get what they deserve, or some form of karma? What do you think and why? I know I will get what is coming to me either good or bad depending on what I put out. Does that count? |
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Hi Dragoness,
Yes that counts and that would be a perception of a 'just world.' But that doesn't make sense, do you think people are given justice by some universal code of laws, or law maker, in equal measure to the outcomes of an individuals actions? If so, what about actions taken with good intent, that turn out bad for others? |
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Do you think we live in a "just" world? People get what they deserve, or some form of karma? *** The nature of the world is a matter of your point of view! *** Explaining the world's justice (or injustice) from the point of view of Karma, is to navigate into the murky waters of Fate -- since nobody dare claiming to be an expert in either one... (from the point of view of Karma -- which might span a few generations -- a poor child's ancestors might've been vicious killers...(Hitler?) There are too many unknowns to even begin to consider! ***However, the truth of the matter is within us: if we beleive the world is just, then it will confirm itself as such. But if we believe it is unjust, then I fear for our well-being! The reason there is so much injustice in the world is because some people believe they're more "just" than others!.. Best answer of the day!!! |
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Do you think we live in a "just" world? People get what they deserve, or some form of karma? *** The nature of the world is a matter of your point of view! *** Explaining the world's justice (or injustice) from the point of view of Karma, is to navigate into the murky waters of Fate -- since nobody dare claiming to be an expert in either one... (from the point of view of Karma -- which might span a few generations -- a poor child's ancestors might've been vicious killers...(Hitler?) There are too many unknowns to even begin to consider! ***However, the truth of the matter is within us: if we beleive the world is just, then it will confirm itself as such. But if we believe it is unjust, then I fear for our well-being! The reason there is so much injustice in the world is because some people believe they're more "just" than others!.. Best answer of the day!!! Actually not really the best answer. (sorry Creative - but I need to make some points here.) There are a few variations of the laws of karma. In the caste system in India, karma is the justice that places individuals into the caste of their birth. There is no mobility between the castes, in fact, people accept their status of their birth as justice and only their acceptance and how they live will determine if they break the cycle of rebirth or not. You see, re-birth is not a good think, nirvana is the goal that breaks the cycle. In the Western or American version of karma, the 'just world' phenomenon is directly tied to the good and bad actions of a previous life. What one is striving for, depends on what a person thinks is the reason for re-birth. But karma does not explain a just world theory because no matter what version of karma a person considers, they all have one element in common - people have a choice, have control over their own actions and emotions, so it makes little sense to think that karma is the mechanism that creates a just world. Especially since a person is re-born with absolutely no previous knowledge, nor even current knowledge of what they need to do to prevent karmic retribution. Actually, karma is yet another example of how religious beliefs were used by governments and people in power to manipulated people into 'accepting' thier lot in life. On the other hand keeping the masses under control via this mechanism, may be a form of cosmic justice. If people are so willing to accept this kind of oppression, perhaps they are being justly rewarded by cosmic forces... Finally - the world IS UNJUST. But what makes it unjust? Creative wrote: But if we believe it is unjust, then I fear for our well-being! The reason there is so much injustice in the world is because some people believe they're more "just" than others!.. Creative thinks injustice exists because some people believe they are more just than others. In other words, a Christian may think their religious law is more accurate and therefore more just than Islam. (or vise versa) So one side treats the other side with discrimination, which inflicts harm - and thus, injustice. This is also true of people, whole villages that are suffering severe drought, or poverty, illness epidemics, and hunger. Are they suffering justly or unjustly. How many would help a neighbor, or a person a few blocks over, or a flood victim in the next county. But when a country is afflicted, we expect our government to act in the same responsible way we might if we could. So where is the injustice? Did nature cause the drought, the illness, the poverty? If so, is it a just world? Did people cause the harm to those living with illness, poverty, and hunger? If so, then how to so many escape the justice of a just world? Creative - fear it if you must, but we do live in an unjust world. |
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Do you think we live in a "just" world? What goes around comes around, People get what they deserve, or some form of karma? What do you think and why? Hello Di...  Do I think we live in a 'just' world? No. Karma? What goes around, comes around? Yes...eventually humankind will be extinct...we bought and paid for it, with greed based thinking, power mongering, and elitism...we created this mess... and we shall surely own it... There is nothing 'just' about the human aspect of this world.... there is a natural 'justness' to the world without humans... exacting, balanced and totally sustainable... |
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Karma is the same kind of wistfulness that makes people want to believe that the meek shall inherit the Earth and that blessed are the poor.
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Di,
I understand your last response... You were quoting HANDLEWITHCAUTION though!   Justice has nothing to do with this 'world' itself... it is all about human cognition and morality. The collective and personal sense of ought. |
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Justice, just like ethics and moral's are linked to the zeitgeist of the people.
Its all relative. |
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Edited by
massagetrade
on
Wed 05/27/09 07:15 PM
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This is different, though, then trying to protect people from future harm, or trying to shape a person or groups decision by introducing a fear of consequences. I mean, if you're thinking of doing some kind of harm to someone in order to convince them its not worth their effort to harm you in the future, to me thats a different thing that trying to say you are 'justified' in harming someone just because they have harmed you in the past. I'm not saying the former is right, just admitting that they are different. Now this is an interesting distinction. We can be justified in the same behavior as long as the reasons are sound. I kill a man who is a killer and about to kill an innocent again, or may kill an innocent later . . . if this is justified then this is not revenge? Or could it be both? Originally I wasn't trying to argue that it would be okay, only that the reasons to argue for or against it would be a different set of reasons (from the 'revenge' viewpoint vs the 'prevent harm' viewpoint). But I do think, for example, that its sometimes okay to harm someone to prevent harm to others - like by taking away someones driver's license if they are caught drunk driving, or putting someone in jail who has murdered. I'm not saying its 'justified', I'm saying its a good idea. Its such a good idea, we don't need to appeal to 'revenge' type concepts of 'justifying the punishment' because they've 'done wrong'. We just need act to prevent harm to others. |
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I believe that eventually we get what we deserve. Case in point..OJ Simpson
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Innocent child in Hiroshima in the year 1945?
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I believe that eventually we get what we deserve. Case in point..OJ Simpson And I think there are far more examples of people who never get what they deserve then those that do . . . |
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There is nothing 'just' about the human aspect of this world.... there is a natural 'justness' to the world without humans... exacting, balanced and totally sustainable... Hi Jess, I agree, I think there is a natural order that keeps things in balance. I also think that may be the reason why humans will become extinct. But I don't consider it justice, other forms of life become extinct as well. The universe is unfolding-emerging and as it develops other things give way and something that is causing a "natural disruption" may be the first to become the past. |
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There is nothing 'just' about the human aspect of this world.... there is a natural 'justness' to the world without humans... exacting, balanced and totally sustainable... Hi Jess, I agree, I think there is a natural order that keeps things in balance. I also think that may be the reason why humans will become extinct. But I don't consider it justice, other forms of life become extinct as well. The universe is unfolding-emerging and as it develops other things give way and something that is causing a "natural disruption" may be the first to become the past. Hi Di, I wouldn't use the word 'justice' in this conversation, except perhaps in the form of 'poetic justice'...(tongue in cheek variety) You asked is it a 'just' world...'just' as in balanced, equitable, fair? The world, outside of us is, however the arrogance of humankind has adopted the belief we ARE the world...we forget we are residents, cohabitating at the one address, with so many diverse ecosystems, and ours is but one of the pervasive destructive ones...
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Do you think we live in a "just" world? People get what they deserve, or some form of karma? ____________HANDLEWITHCAUTION's REPLY: ___________________ *** The nature of the world is a matter of your point of view! *** --------------------------------------------------------------- Explaining the world's justice (or injustice) from the point of view of Karma, is to navigate into the murky waters of Fate -- since nobody dare claiming to be an expert in either one... [from the point of view of Karma -- which might span a few generations -- a poor child's ancestors might've been vicious killers...(Hitler?) There are too many unknowns to even begin to consider!] ***However, the truth of the matter is within us: ------------------------------------------------ if we beleive the world is just, then it will confirm itself as such. But if we believe it is unjust, then I fear for our well-being! The reason there is so much injustice in the world is because some people believe they're more "just" than others!..*********** ************************************ _________________________SOMEONE ELSE'S OPINION_______________ Best answer of the day!!! ______________________DI's REBUTTLE_____________________________ Actually not really the best answer. (sorry Creative - but I need to make some points here.) There are a few variations of the laws of karma. In the caste system in India, karma is the justice that places individuals into the caste of their birth. There is no mobility between the castes, in fact, people accept their status of their birth as justice and only their acceptance and how they live will determine if they break the cycle of rebirth or not. You see, re-birth is not a good think, nirvana is the goal that breaks the cycle. In the Western or American version of karma, the 'just world' phenomenon is directly tied to the good and bad actions of a previous life. What one is striving for, depends on what a person thinks is the reason for re-birth. But karma does not explain a just world theory because no matter what version of karma a person considers, they all have one element in common - people have a choice, have control over their own actions and emotions, so it makes little sense to think that karma is the mechanism that creates a just world. Especially since a person is re-born with absolutely no previous knowledge, nor even current knowledge of what they need to do to prevent karmic retribution. Actually, karma is yet another example of how religious beliefs were used by governments and people in power to manipulated people into 'accepting' thier lot in life. On the other hand keeping the masses under control via this mechanism, may be a form of cosmic justice. If people are so willing to accept this kind of oppression, perhaps they are being justly rewarded by cosmic forces... Finally - the world IS UNJUST. But what makes it unjust? Creative wrote: But if we believe it is unjust, then I fear for our well-being! The reason there is so much injustice in the world is because some people believe they're more "just" than others!.. Creative thinks injustice exists because some people believe they are more just than others. In other words, a Christian may think their religious law is more accurate and therefore more just than Islam. (or vise versa) So one side treats the other side with discrimination, which inflicts harm - and thus, injustice. This is also true of people, whole villages that are suffering severe drought, or poverty, illness epidemics, and hunger. Are they suffering justly or unjustly. How many would help a neighbor, or a person a few blocks over, or a flood victim in the next county. But when a country is afflicted, we expect our government to act in the same responsible way we might if we could. So where is the injustice? Did nature cause the drought, the illness, the poverty? If so, is it a just world? Did people cause the harm to those living with illness, poverty, and hunger? If so, then how to so many escape the justice of a just world? Creative - fear it if you must, but we do live in an unjust world. [b[____________(HWC) HANDLEWITHCAUTION'S CLARIFICATION: _________ First of all, Di, thank you for considering me a CREATIVE person! (I hope you didn't confuse me with Creativesoul, though * * * LOL) However, you must've misinterpreted my message, judging from the last sentence of your message! (I, for one, have experinced some of the aspects of the world's injustice on my own skin much too often... Though my confidence has prevailed...) Nevertheless, the confussion insued (vecause you didn't indicate exactly what kind of justice you have in mind...) * * * * * * * Certainly, the justice/injustice of the world is a relative matter.. Therefore I stated that the nature of the world is a matter of one's perception (i.e. point of view): **the winner's perspective is quite different from that of the loser!** From the point of view of "Cause & Effect", there's a reason for everything -- including poverty, hunger, natural disasters, etc. (if not in this lifetime, then in any of the previous...) However, as I mentioned, I'm not an expert on Karma -- in fact, as I pointed out, I'd hesitate navigating into the murky waters of either Karma or Fate. (You seem to be more knowledgable on that...) But what I did state is that IT IS WITHIN THE INDIVIDUAL'S POWER TO ALTER THE SO CALLED KARMA!!! (whether that's commonly achievable is another question which depends to the great degree on the individual's upbringing, though not exclusively...) Thus, THERE'S NOTHING TO FEAR BUT THE FEAR ITSELF!!! P.S. The reason why humans will become extinct has nothing to do with their self-destructiveness, but is a cyclical phenomenon, which happens roughly every 65 million years -- approximately that's when the dinisaurs became extinct -- and has something to do with the orbit of the solar system around the center of the gallaxy. Apparently, even our future grandchildren have nothing to worry about... |
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The world, outside of us is, however the arrogance of humankind has adopted the belief we ARE the world...we forget we are residents, cohabitating at the one address, with so many diverse ecosystems, and ours is but one of the pervasive destructive ones... Yes Jess, I agree, in fact I think your point is proven here in this thread, because when I speak of a "just world" many immediately think of 'human justice.' HANDLEWITHCAUTION & Creative; many apologies. I was not being careful when I was scanning the replies, I am sorry for confusing people and issues. Handle-you suggest I must have misunderstood your message-I am sure I probably did as I might have been combining people and posts. That's what I get for trying to take a short cut and respond off the cuff instead of carefully. So let me try to address you again Handlewithcare. You wrote Certainly, the justice/injustice of the world is a relative matter.. Therefore I stated that the nature of the world is a matter of one's perception (i.e. point of view): **the winner's perspective is quite different from that of the loser!** From the point of view of "Cause & Effect", there's a reason for everything -- including poverty, hunger, natural disasters, etc. (if not in this lifetime, then in any of the previous...) You are correct, the nature of the world (or the idea that suggests the world is a just place) is a matter of one's perception. That's exactly my point - I was questioning the logic of those who believe in a just world theory. While I believe that cause and effect opperate within our universe at all times, I don't believe we can specifically trace random acts, natural or intentional, to any logical acceptance of a 'just world', do you? I mean as far as those who believe that people will "get what they deserve" within this lifetime, based upon their individual thoughts and actions. In other words, many people believe that bad thoughts which lead to bad actions and bad outcomes, will eventually suffer under the hand of some 'naturally occurring" universal balancing mechanism. I think those who believe the 'just world' theory have not really thought the whole idea through. |
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..the way i view it is ..shyt happens..there is no rhyme or reason there is no karma except for those who want to believe there is..sure we like to think that there is some great karmic force that evens things up when we have been wronged ,or that when we feel we do right but that is just one way man kind deals with things he cant control..its easier that way..as far as being just no i dont think life is just ...it just is... 
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tombraider:
..the way i view it is ..shyt happens.. no i dont think life is just ...it just is... Exactly.. Just/Injust is a purely psychological mstter. But: If one does something wrong and is being consumed by feelings of remorse (guilty conscience, etc.), then -- sooner or later -- Fate will even the score... Though Justice has nothing to do with it: the wrong-doer will panish oneself (in one way or another) through his own thoughts... The moral of the story: YOU SHOULD NEVER REGRET YOUR BAD DEEDS -- TRY JUSTIFYING THEM! 
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Innocent child in Hiroshima in the year 1945? There were many more that died then just an innocent child in Hiroshima. It was an act of war. Is there justice in war? |
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An enlighten technocratic totalitarianism is something that is brewing in my mind. A single party state where the social engineers are at best the expert on planning a just society where equal cooperation of all single ego-driven indivuals can co-habit peacefully together. :)
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