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Topic: C(r)apitalism?
MadDog1974's photo
Sun 03/01/15 03:21 PM
The problem with government intervention is that it leads to the cronyism that we falsely call capitalism. Some people will be greedy and selfish. That doesn't make capitalism bad. That means those individuals are corrupt. Cronyism should not be confused with capitalism. Those who buy the rules they like so to limit competition, thereby stacking the deck in their favor are not capitalists.

urbanexchange's photo
Sun 03/01/15 03:22 PM

Sorry, but capitalism gives me a good living. I bought my competitor out last year and I'll do it again if I have to! Business, is business, at the end of the day? Doesn't make me a bad person, cos i'm not. Just building a future for my kids, that's all!

Upton Sinclair says "Fascism is capitalism plus murder." I slightly disagree. I believe Totalitarianism is capitalism plus murder. Because if it were up to you, you would by every single competitor if you could. There's nothing wrong with that. This is what I call "self interest." You have to feed yourself and your family. Thanks for proving my point why capitalism will never work. laugh

MadDog1974's photo
Sun 03/01/15 03:37 PM


Sorry, but capitalism gives me a good living. I bought my competitor out last year and I'll do it again if I have to! Business, is business, at the end of the day? Doesn't make me a bad person, cos i'm not. Just building a future for my kids, that's all!

Upton Sinclair says "Fascism is capitalism plus murder." I slightly disagree. I believe Totalitarianism is capitalism plus murder. Because if it were up to you, you would by every single competitor if you could. There's nothing wrong with that. This is what I call "self interest." You have to feed yourself and your family. Thanks for proving my point why capitalism will never work. laugh


If anything, this disproves your point about why capitalism doesn't work. He made a business decision based on his self interest and bought out the competition. He presumably didn't take them over by force. And by selling, the sellers also acted in their own self interest. What was not explained is why those businesses were bought out. There are any number of reasons why those transactions took place. Either way, both parties acted in their own self interest. That is not a flaw in capitalism or in human nature. That's not even a flaw. That is two parties making a deal that is mutually beneficial.

urbanexchange's photo
Sun 03/01/15 03:49 PM
Here's another example: why isn't marijuana legalized? There are more positive than negative benefits to smoking marijuana. Why do people have to go to jail for selling or buying marihuana if the main concept of capitalism involves no government involvement and acknowledgement of personal freedoms?? Why must I fear government intervention for wanting to purchase 100.00 dollars worth of marihuana for my menstrual cramps?? High fructose corn syrup which is in 99% percent of our food, is linked to weight gain; diabetes, high blood pressure, abnormal distribution of fats. High Fructose Corn Syrup is banned in many countries. And in parts of Europe, the company has to put a HFCS label on the food. The pharmaceutical and food corporations in United States are a multi-billion dollar industry. The pharmaceutical and food corporations have enlisted the services of our elected officials to not only put forth their product; but to regulate laws aimed at people who do want to practice free market capitalism such as selling marihuana. Herion turns into morphine in the brain. Herion amc morphine is from the same opium plant. Why is herion illegal? Because those pharmaceuticals companies who manufacture morphine, dilaudid, Vicodin, Percocet would lose billions of dollArs. The pharmAceutical corporations have enlisted the help of the DEA to ensure that Capitalism such as an individual selling heroin doesn't occur.

Argo's photo
Sun 03/01/15 03:54 PM
here's a one word flaw in capitalism.....Wal-Mart............taking advantage of foreign slave labor, paying employees as little as possible, offering next to nothing in benefits, and forcing all mom & pop business out of the market...is this good or bad for the people of the communities they do business in...?

MadDog1974's photo
Sun 03/01/15 04:05 PM

Here's another example: why isn't marijuana legalized? There are more positive than negative benefits to smoking marijuana. Why do people have to go to jail for selling or buying marihuana if the main concept of capitalism involves no government involvement and acknowledgement of personal freedoms?? Why must I fear government intervention for wanting to purchase 100.00 dollars worth of marihuana for my menstrual cramps?? High fructose corn syrup which is in 99% percent of our food, is linked to weight gain; diabetes, high blood pressure, abnormal distribution of fats. High Fructose Corn Syrup is banned in many countries. And in parts of Europe, the company has to put a HFCS label on the food. The pharmaceutical and food corporations in United States are a multi-billion dollar industry. The pharmaceutical and food corporations have enlisted the services of our elected officials to not only put forth their product; but to regulate laws aimed at people who do want to practice free market capitalism such as selling marihuana. Herion turns into morphine in the brain. Herion amc morphine is from the same opium plant. Why is herion illegal? Because those pharmaceuticals companies who manufacture morphine, dilaudid, Vicodin, Percocet would lose billions of dollArs. The pharmAceutical corporations have enlisted the help of the DEA to ensure that Capitalism such as an individual selling heroin doesn't occur.


All arguments in favor of free market capitalism, and not the cronyism that you're referring to. You're citing examples of people buying the rules. If they are truly interested free markets, they don't need to bribe those in power to make rules that favor them. It's the buying and selling of influence and power, not the buying and selling of goods and services that is the problem. Anyone can win at a game if they buy the rules they like. A truly free market capitalist system is a level playing field because everyone has an equal opportunity.

messi_is_a_tim_1888's photo
Sun 03/01/15 04:22 PM



Sorry, but capitalism gives me a good living. I bought my competitor out last year and I'll do it again if I have to! Business, is business, at the end of the day? Doesn't make me a bad person, cos i'm not. Just building a future for my kids, that's all!

Upton Sinclair says "Fascism is capitalism plus murder." I slightly disagree. I believe Totalitarianism is capitalism plus murder. Because if it were up to you, you would by every single competitor if you could. There's nothing wrong with that. This is what I call "self interest." You have to feed yourself and your family. Thanks for proving my point why capitalism will never work. laugh


If anything, this disproves your point about why capitalism doesn't work. He made a business decision based on his self interest and bought out the competition. He presumably didn't take them over by force. And by selling, the sellers also acted in their own self interest. What was not explained is why those businesses were bought out. There are any number of reasons why those transactions took place. Either way, both parties acted in their own self interest. That is not a flaw in capitalism or in human nature. That's not even a flaw. That is two parties making a deal that is mutually beneficial.
Nope, it wasn't by force. I actually made him an offer over a pint, in the pub and he agreed. I also offered to keep on the staff he had, as I know myself what it's like to be made redundant. Everybody was happy in the end!

urbanexchange's photo
Sun 03/01/15 07:32 PM


Here's another example: why isn't marijuana legalized? There are more positive than negative benefits to smoking marijuana. Why do people have to go to jail for selling or buying marihuana if the main concept of capitalism involves no government involvement and acknowledgement of personal freedoms?? Why must I fear government intervention for wanting to purchase 100.00 dollars worth of marihuana for my menstrual cramps?? High fructose corn syrup which is in 99% percent of our food, is linked to weight gain; diabetes, high blood pressure, abnormal distribution of fats. High Fructose Corn Syrup is banned in many countries. And in parts of Europe, the company has to put a HFCS label on the food. The pharmaceutical and food corporations in United States are a multi-billion dollar industry. The pharmaceutical and food corporations have enlisted the services of our elected officials to not only put forth their product; but to regulate laws aimed at people who do want to practice free market capitalism such as selling marihuana. Herion turns into morphine in the brain. Herion amc morphine is from the same opium plant. Why is herion illegal? Because those pharmaceuticals companies who manufacture morphine, dilaudid, Vicodin, Percocet would lose billions of dollArs. The pharmAceutical corporations have enlisted the help of the DEA to ensure that Capitalism such as an individual selling heroin doesn't occur.


All arguments in favor of free market capitalism, and not the cronyism that you're referring to. You're citing examples of people buying the rules. If they are truly interested free markets, they don't need to bribe those in power to make rules that favor them. It's the buying and selling of influence and power, not the buying and selling of goods and services that is the problem. Anyone can win at a game if they buy the rules they like. A truly free market capitalist system is a level playing field because everyone has an equal opportunity.

MadDog1974's photo
Sun 03/01/15 07:54 PM

here's a one word flaw in capitalism.....Wal-Mart............taking advantage of foreign slave labor, paying employees as little as possible, offering next to nothing in benefits, and forcing all mom & pop business out of the market...is this good or bad for the people of the communities they do business in...?


This is not a problem with capitalism. You are referring to cronyism. That is a problem because the big guys buy influence to keep the little guys out or prevent them from becoming big guys. Capitalism relies on competition as an incentive to provide excellence, not manipulation of the rules to shut down competition and provide, at best, mediocrity.

Argo's photo
Sun 03/01/15 08:42 PM
walmart doesn't buy any influence or manipulate any rules to push out competition...they succeed because they depend on the american people to buy their toilet paper for 50 cents less than mom and pop can supply it....the big box retailer moves in and communities begin to change.... all the small specialty stores begin to fold as they cannot compete with a retailer who specializes in every item from A to Z....this is capitalism at its finest..walmart offers comparable products, the added convenience of
1-stop shopping all at a lower price to the consumer...according to capitalism or any other name you might call it.....they are exactly where they should be....

so i'll ask my question one more time....
is this good or bad for the communities they do business in ?????

urbanexchange's photo
Sun 03/01/15 09:06 PM



Here's another example: why isn't marijuana legalized? There are more positive than negative benefits to smoking marijuana. Why do people have to go to jail for selling or buying marihuana if the main concept of capitalism involves no government involvement and acknowledgement of personal freedoms?? Why must I fear government intervention for wanting to purchase 100.00 dollars worth of marihuana for my menstrual cramps?? High fructose corn syrup which is in 99% percent of our food, is linked to weight gain; diabetes, high blood pressure, abnormal distribution of fats. High Fructose Corn Syrup is banned in many countries. And in parts of Europe, the company has to put a HFCS label on the food. The pharmaceutical and food corporations in United States are a multi-billion dollar industry. The pharmaceutical and food corporations have enlisted the services of our elected officials to not only put forth their product; but to regulate laws aimed at people who do want to practice free market capitalism such as selling marihuana. Herion turns into morphine in the brain. Herion amc morphine is from the same opium plant. Why is herion illegal? Because those pharmaceuticals companies who manufacture morphine, dilaudid, Vicodin, Percocet would lose billions of dollArs. The pharmAceutical corporations have enlisted the help of the DEA to ensure that Capitalism such as an individual selling heroin doesn't occur.


All arguments in favor of free market capitalism, and not the cronyism that you're referring to. You're citing examples of people buying the rules. If they are truly interested free markets, they don't need to bribe those in power to make rules that favor them. It's the buying and selling of influence and power, not the buying and selling of goods and services that is the problem. Anyone can win at a game if they buy the rules they like. A truly free market capitalist system is a level playing field because everyone has an equal opportunity.




For the record...I never said I didn't like capitalism. I just simply implied that it would never work. I think we have a better chance of seeing a unicorn than seeing capitalism in America. The shirt you are wearing in your default was probably made in some factory that pays its worker $3.10 cents a day for 10 hours. Because if that worker was getting paid $10.00 an hour for 10 hours a day, your shirt would probably cost about $310.00 dollars.
Also in some of these factories, workers are forced to take birth control. Your self-interest needs are being met by violation of individual basic rights of another. Are you able to sew your own clothes and make your own sneakers?? Again, do you think 320 million people will suppress their self interest needs? This is a question that you fail to answer. No need to. It's a very complex answer. This is why capitalism will never work. Capitalism ideology involves the human element. Human element is complex. Cronyism is part of the human element. It is rooted in self interest.

MadDog1974's photo
Sun 03/01/15 09:53 PM




Here's another example: why isn't marijuana legalized? There are more positive than negative benefits to smoking marijuana. Why do people have to go to jail for selling or buying marihuana if the main concept of capitalism involves no government involvement and acknowledgement of personal freedoms?? Why must I fear government intervention for wanting to purchase 100.00 dollars worth of marihuana for my menstrual cramps?? High fructose corn syrup which is in 99% percent of our food, is linked to weight gain; diabetes, high blood pressure, abnormal distribution of fats. High Fructose Corn Syrup is banned in many countries. And in parts of Europe, the company has to put a HFCS label on the food. The pharmaceutical and food corporations in United States are a multi-billion dollar industry. The pharmaceutical and food corporations have enlisted the services of our elected officials to not only put forth their product; but to regulate laws aimed at people who do want to practice free market capitalism such as selling marihuana. Herion turns into morphine in the brain. Herion amc morphine is from the same opium plant. Why is herion illegal? Because those pharmaceuticals companies who manufacture morphine, dilaudid, Vicodin, Percocet would lose billions of dollArs. The pharmAceutical corporations have enlisted the help of the DEA to ensure that Capitalism such as an individual selling heroin doesn't occur.


All arguments in favor of free market capitalism, and not the cronyism that you're referring to. You're citing examples of people buying the rules. If they are truly interested free markets, they don't need to bribe those in power to make rules that favor them. It's the buying and selling of influence and power, not the buying and selling of goods and services that is the problem. Anyone can win at a game if they buy the rules they like. A truly free market capitalist system is a level playing field because everyone has an equal opportunity.




For the record...I never said I didn't like capitalism. I just simply implied that it would never work. I think we have a better chance of seeing a unicorn than seeing capitalism in America. The shirt you are wearing in your default was probably made in some factory that pays its worker $3.10 cents a day for 10 hours. Because if that worker was getting paid $10.00 an hour for 10 hours a day, your shirt would probably cost about $310.00 dollars.
Also in some of these factories, workers are forced to take birth control. Your self-interest needs are being met by violation of individual basic rights of another. Are you able to sew your own clothes and make your own sneakers?? Again, do you think 320 million people will suppress their self interest needs? This is a question that you fail to answer. No need to. It's a very complex answer. This is why capitalism will never work. Capitalism ideology involves the human element. Human element is complex. Cronyism is part of the human element. It is rooted in self interest.


No. The cronyism is rooted in selfishness, not self interest. The unscrupulous among us conflate the two. And this goes hand in hand with the Walmart example. Walmart, whether or not they buy influence, do take advantage of influence that is bought and sold. The rules in place are designed to favor the big guys at the expense of the little guys. That's not a problem with capitalism. That's a problem with politicians interfering with the free market and favoring big donors. How hard should it be to start a taxi business, for example? That should be one of the easiest businesses to start. It's no coincidence that the established businesses are the ones who favor more regulation. It helps keep potential competition out.

Argo's photo
Sun 03/01/15 10:35 PM
exactly what is this bought and sold influence that
walmart takes advantage of that is not available to
any other retail merchandiser operating in america...???

and my other question is still unanswered...good or bad ???

Conrad_73's photo
Sun 03/01/15 11:14 PM

exactly what is this bought and sold influence that
walmart takes advantage of that is not available to
any other retail merchandiser operating in america...???

and my other question is still unanswered...good or bad ???


Capitalism GOOD!

Cronyism BAD!








Conrad_73's photo
Sun 03/01/15 11:15 PM

here's a one word flaw in capitalism.....Wal-Mart............taking advantage of foreign slave labor, paying employees as little as possible, offering next to nothing in benefits, and forcing all mom & pop business out of the market...is this good or bad for the people of the communities they do business in...?

what makes you believe that WALMART would exist in a Free Market?laugh

Conrad_73's photo
Sun 03/01/15 11:18 PM

I don't think it matters whether I trust the government or not. The topic is about capitalism. You are focusing on the political/economic aspect of capitalism. I am focusing on the the psychological and physiological aspect of capitalism. In order for capitalism to work you FIRST have to acknowledge the physiological and psychological aspect of capitalism; humans have to first recognize that they are animals with an innate non-suppressible drive. The human race does that recognize this. The human race believes that they are the supreme beings of the universe. The problem with this way of thinking is that it excludes acknowledgement of our own innate drive: self-interest and sex. "Self-interest" is synonymous to air, food, and water. Human beings are eukaryotic organisms: we are animals. Human beings are no different than lions and orca. This is why capitalism will never work. Capitalism doesn't even work in the animal kingdom. Do you think the mAle lion going not kill a wildebeest for altruistic purposes? Do you think male lion who wants to take control over a pride NOT commit infanticide for the altruism of others?? Because if that male cub matures, he's going to kill any other male that tries to take over the pride. Even if human beings acknowledge that they are animals, in order for them to get the bare necessities such as food, they Have to take away the rights of others for self-interest.

Me thinks you might need to first figure out the meaning of Capitalism!
You sling that word around,and are applying it indiscriminately to a variety of unrelated Issues!

Conrad_73's photo
Sun 03/01/15 11:19 PM

http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/capitalism.html

Capitalism is a social system based on the recognition of individual rights, including property rights, in which all property is privately owned.

The recognition of individual rights entails the banishment of physical force from human relationships: basically, rights can be violated only by means of force. In a capitalist society, no man or group may initiate the use of physical force against others. The only function of the government, in such a society, is the task of protecting man's rights, i.e., the task of protecting him from physical force; the government acts as the agent of man's right of self-defense, and may use force only in retaliation and only against those who initiate its use; thus the government is the means of placing the retaliatory use of force under objective control.

Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal





When I say capitalism, I mean a full, pure, uncontrolled, unregulated laissez-faire capitalism,with a separation of state and economics, in the same way and for the same reasons as the separation of state and church...........


Read it again,and check out the Link!slaphead

MadDog1974's photo
Sun 03/01/15 11:52 PM
Edited by MadDog1974 on Sun 03/01/15 11:55 PM
Thank you, Conrad. You answered it before I got to it, and probably more articulately than I would have. :thumbsup:

Argo's photo
Mon 03/02/15 01:24 AM


exactly what is this bought and sold influence that
walmart takes advantage of that is not available to
any other retail merchandiser operating in america...???
and my other question is still unanswered...good or bad ???

Capitalism GOOD!
Cronyism BAD!

this and some cutesy memes copped off the internet answers anything ? i doubt it...


Argo's photo
Mon 03/02/15 01:24 AM


here's a one word flaw in capitalism.....Wal-Mart............taking advantage of foreign slave labor, paying employees as little as possible, offering next to nothing in benefits, and forcing all mom & pop business out of the market...is this good or bad for the people of the communities they do business in...?

what makes you believe that WALMART would exist in a Free Market?laugh

again, this is answering a question ?.....how so, by asking another question ?

i should have learned by now, not to get into discussions with cut-and-paste artists or those who display an attitude of superiority.......yawn good night fellas....

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