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| Topic: C(r)apitalism? | |
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I think it's always fair to tax everyone, only problem is the poor can't afford it but middle class sure. As it is the middle class pays too much and the rich not enough and the poor don't get enough support. That's where I stand. Can you show me how the middle class pays too much and the rich not enough?.. I've explained this on the other thread. Can we keep the economic discussion here? That was about something else and the discussions are getting redundant. I was more interested in hearing Estelle's explanation and the discussions was not getting redundant for me probably because I missed your explanation :-) Taxation is relevant to any discussion about capitalism because under capitalism a government is typically supported through voluntary financing methods, not through taxation... Another minor misunderstanding. That was for Estelle. But, but, but........you quoted me sugar.... 
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I think it's always fair to tax everyone, only problem is the poor can't afford it but middle class sure. As it is the middle class pays too much and the rich not enough and the poor don't get enough support. That's where I stand. Can you show me how the middle class pays too much and the rich not enough?.. I've explained this on the other thread. Can we keep the economic discussion here? That was about something else and the discussions are getting redundant. I was more interested in hearing Estelle's explanation and the discussions was not getting redundant for me probably because I missed your explanation :-) Taxation is relevant to any discussion about capitalism because under capitalism a government is typically supported through voluntary financing methods, not through taxation... Another minor misunderstanding. That was for Estelle. But, but, but........you quoted me sugar.... I may seem perfect, but I make mistakes.       
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Capitalism is a fairy tale utopia that would never exist in this world because human beings as well as ALL living beings are driven by self-interest.
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Capitalism is a fairy tale utopia that would never exist in this world because human beings as well as ALL living beings are driven by self-interest. Rational self-interest is what Capitalism is about! |
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Capitalism is a fairy tale utopia that would never exist in this world because human beings as well as ALL living beings are driven by self-interest. This is exactly why capitalism does work! |
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Capitalism requires the suppression of self- interest and altruism. Free Market capitalism is ideal, but would never work in a society in which the main drive of human beings are self-interest. Sorry hun.
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Capitalism is a fairy tale utopia that would never exist in this world because human beings as well as ALL living beings are driven by self-interest. true of all governments, no matter the title, their downfall is human greed someone is in charge and those in charge with the money and the power want more at any cost, including to those who don't have money or power,,,,,no matter what we call the government |
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Capitalism is a fairy tale utopia that would never exist in this world because human beings as well as ALL living beings are driven by self-interest. true of all governments, no matter the title, their downfall is human greed someone is in charge and those in charge with the money and the power want more at any cost, including to those who don't have money or power,,,,,no matter what we call the government The problem is people confuse self interest with selfishness. I'm going to make sure my family and I are taken care of. That's self interest. To do so at the expense of someone else is selfish. Would you do your job without getting paid? Of course not. Why? Because you have your own needs and wants to take care of. Are you selfish for accepting your paycheck? Of course not. Just like the boss is looking out for his self interest in hiring you. But he pays what you agree is a fair wage, so is he being selfish? You are also conflating capitalism with a government system. Ideally, the government would not be involved, or have minimal involvement in a capitalist system. Government intervention, by and large, is the source of, not the solution to economic troubles. |
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Edited by
msharmony
on
Sun 03/01/15 01:00 PM
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I stand corrected, whatever we call the economic system
greed is still the ingredient that always keeps it from operating to its ideal,,, and I agree self interest is ,, I accept the 20000 I need for doing the job and paying three others for their help (1/4 th the work) at 5000 each selfishness is, I accept the 20000, and pay three others 1000 each for their part in helping me earn that 17000, for doing 1/4 th the work it means, I have what I earned, but if I can dick someone out of what they earned under the mask of being the 'job creator' so I can get more, Im all in,, just as one example,, of course |
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I am very well familiar with the differences between "self-interest" and "selfishness." "Self-interest" encompasses physiological, and psychosocial needs. These are needs that are necessary for the survival of ALL living beings. "Selfishness" just deals with emotional desires. "Self-interest" is a need that cannot be suppressed. For example, the clothes you wear are made in 3rd world countries to keep cost down. Deregulated capitalism implies no government involvement; requires people having the personal freedoms to choose which product they want or for vendors to sell their product without any fear of government retribution. If government doesn't take over, then man will takeover. And it's because his physiological/psychological needs are dependent on this. Adam Smith states "The pride of man makes him love to domineer, and nothing mortifies him so much as to be obliged to condescend to persuade his inferiors. Wherever the law allows it, and the nature of the work can afford it, therefore, he will generally prefer the service of slaves to that of freemen." This is an innate action of ALL. Regulated capitalism is oxymoronic; because capitalism cannot be regulated. The government is operated by "a small duress of powerful men." I do believe human beings are rational entities, but let's be honest, do you expect 320 million in this country to suppress their "self-interest" for the sake of others???
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I am very well familiar with the differences between "self-interest" and "selfishness." "Self-interest" encompasses physiological, and psychosocial needs. These are needs that are necessary for the survival of ALL living beings. "Selfishness" just deals with emotional desires. "Self-interest" is a need that cannot be suppressed. For example, the clothes you wear are made in 3rd world countries to keep cost down. Deregulated capitalism implies no government involvement; requires people having the personal freedoms to choose which product they want or for vendors to sell their product without any fear of government retribution. If government doesn't take over, then man will takeover. And it's because his physiological/psychological needs are dependent on this. Adam Smith states "The pride of man makes him love to domineer, and nothing mortifies him so much as to be obliged to condescend to persuade his inferiors. Wherever the law allows it, and the nature of the work can afford it, therefore, he will generally prefer the service of slaves to that of freemen." This is an innate action of ALL. Regulated capitalism is oxymoronic; because capitalism cannot be regulated. The government is operated by "a small duress of powerful men." I do believe human beings are rational entities, but let's be honest, do you expect 320 million in this country to suppress their "self-interest" for the sake of others??? So you trust governments, which historically abuse their authority and oppress people? Capitalism is not the problem. For you to cite self interest as the reason why capitalism doesn't work is incorrect. Capitalism works just fine. The problem is that governments, often at the behest of the greedy, intervene. Third World countries making products that we use is the problem? I would disagree with that. If they don't participate in a capitalist system, as many don't, they are destined to remain impoverished. The problem is not capitalism, but corrupt governments. |
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http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/capitalism.html
Capitalism is a social system based on the recognition of individual rights, including property rights, in which all property is privately owned. The recognition of individual rights entails the banishment of physical force from human relationships: basically, rights can be violated only by means of force. In a capitalist society, no man or group may initiate the use of physical force against others. The only function of the government, in such a society, is the task of protecting man's rights, i.e., the task of protecting him from physical force; the government acts as the agent of man's right of self-defense, and may use force only in retaliation and only against those who initiate its use; thus the government is the means of placing the retaliatory use of force under objective control. Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal When I say capitalism, I mean a full, pure, uncontrolled, unregulated laissez-faire capitalism,with a separation of state and economics, in the same way and for the same reasons as the separation of state and church........... |
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I don't think it matters whether I trust the government or not. The topic is about capitalism. You are focusing on the political/economic aspect of capitalism. I am focusing on the the psychological and physiological aspect of capitalism. In order for capitalism to work you FIRST have to acknowledge the physiological and psychological aspect of capitalism; humans have to first recognize that they are animals with an innate non-suppressible drive. The human race does that recognize this. The human race believes that they are the supreme beings of the universe. The problem with this way of thinking is that it excludes acknowledgement of our own innate drive: self-interest and sex. "Self-interest" is synonymous to air, food, and water. Human beings are eukaryotic organisms: we are animals. Human beings are no different than lions and orca. This is why capitalism will never work. Capitalism doesn't even work in the animal kingdom. Do you think the mAle lion going not kill a wildebeest for altruistic purposes? Do you think male lion who wants to take control over a pride NOT commit infanticide for the altruism of others?? Because if that male cub matures, he's going to kill any other male that tries to take over the pride. Even if human beings acknowledge that they are animals, in order for them to get the bare necessities such as food, they Have to take away the rights of others for self-interest.
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want to see some redistribution of wealth ? look no further than the steps of the U.S. Bankruptcy Courts, where you will see corporate heads smiling as they re-emerge from insolvency to once again bleed companies dry with their obscenely high executive pay and compensation packages...after all, the free market has determined that they have failed in their business venture...so how is it these inept executives are allowed another chance to mismanage the same failed company again ?
how do they do it ??? off the sweaty backs of their labor force, that's how....through wage cuts, work rule changes, overtime pay-rate reductions, freezing or eliminating pensions, additional monetary contributions to health-care plans, loss of paid holidays and reduced vacations....and the lowly working man is told to, take it or leave it, as they remind you...you're lucky to have a job...there's 50 more to take your place if you don't like how we run things here.... yeah it's redistribution of wealth alright...from the pocket of the worker...to the coffers of the fat cats of corporate management.... |
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Sorry, but capitalism gives me a good living. I bought my competitor out last year and I'll do it again if I have to! Business, is business, at the end of the day? Doesn't make me a bad person, cos i'm not. Just building a future for my kids, that's all!
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Every reason you cite as to why capitalism won't work is exactly why it does work wherever governments don't interfere with it. Self interest is the single greatest motivation. Because we are social beings, selfishness and greed ultimately work against us. Additionally, as governments get involved, the systems tend to become more socialist or even communist, which fail wherever they are implemented. Government intervention, not the nature of mankind, is the problem.
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selfishness and greed ultimately work against us.
,,true and doesn't really validate the belief that Government intervention, not the nature of mankind, is the problem. governments are made of people, as are the corporations and businesses 'capitalism' creates ,,with people comes the greed that corrupts,, |
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we've met the enemy, and he is us.......Pogo..
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Well that's not capitalism
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want to see some redistribution of wealth ? look no further than the steps of the U.S. Bankruptcy Courts, where you will see corporate heads smiling as they re-emerge from insolvency to once again bleed companies dry with their obscenely high executive pay and compensation packages...after all, the free market has determined that they have failed in their business venture...so how is it these inept executives are allowed another chance to mismanage the same failed company again ? how do they do it ??? off the sweaty backs of their labor force, that's how....through wage cuts, work rule changes, overtime pay-rate reductions, freezing or eliminating pensions, additional monetary contributions to health-care plans, loss of paid holidays and reduced vacations....and the lowly working man is told to, take it or leave it, as they remind you...you're lucky to have a job...there's 50 more to take your place if you don't like how we run things here.... yeah it's redistribution of wealth alright...from the pocket of the worker...to the coffers of the fat cats of corporate management.... Well that's not capitalism :-( |
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