It has nothing to do with ID being disproven.

ID, disguised as creationism, is nothing other then a faith-religious-bible-inerrant negative argumentation of the fact-scientifically supported scientific theory of evolution.

You can't 'disprove' ID, it is crationism in disguise, and creationism is faith based. Nothing presented by the creationist camp, other than dogma, nothing to observe or verify, nothing to disprove.

What has been repeatedly established, from the judicial and scientific perspectives, is that ID is nothing other than a religious,faith-based, negative argument against the theory of evolution, and has been found unsconstitutional, on the legal front, and anything but science simply because nothing scientifically verifiable (scientific papers, research, verifiable findings, peer reviews, etc.) has ever been submitted.

Disprove ID?!?!?!?

Totally impertinent.

I.D., like its ancestors, bible inerrancy and creationism, are matter of FAITH, not FACT.

Like all matters of FAITH, it is totally incompatible with the natural arena.

It belongs entirely to the supernatural, where it could never be used to prove or disprove anything in the natural arena, anymore than it could ever be proven itself.

PROOF does not apply to FAITH,

... just as BELIEF doesn't apply to SCIENCE

Krimsa,

Catholics, Anglicans (protestents), Orthodox, and the largest number of mainline Protestant congregations are CHRISTIANS AND SUBSCRIBE TO THE SCIENTIFIC, FACT BASED REALITIES OF THE THEORY OF EVOLUTION.

That amounts to 99,997% of the christian community of the world.

That leaves the remaining 0,00262% consisting strictly of 'bible-inerrancy-fundamentalist-evangelists', whom insist in opposing a litteral interpretation of genesis based on FAITH, against the FACT based scientific theory of evolution.

US fundamentalism, is a US and GB phenomenon that is traced back to the end of the 19th, and beginning of the 20th here in the US.

It is a sort of allergic FAITH based reaction against MODERNISM, which brought too many 'bible-litterate' contradictions to our fellow 'fundamentalists'.

So yes Krimsa, that fraction of 'christians' whom are often heard claiming that the other 99,997% are not REAL CHRISTIANS, are mostly here in the US.

... and yes again 'krimsa', sometimes it feels like ALL TWELVE OF THEM, are here on 'mingle2'!!!

Morningsong,

Presenting the 2000+ year old 'book' as NEWS is pretty funny, I have to admit.

Unfortunately, the 'book' is EVERYTHING BUT NEWS!!!

If anything, it has been overmediatized for the past 2000 years.

Devout christians whom know and respect the 'book' every bit as much as you Morningsong, and distinguish FAITH (beliefs) and FACTS (science) powerfully, counter argue every single point, including the infamous macro, micro delusion from the creationist camp!!!

Creationists have nothing to add. Nothing to counteract with.

There is no such argument as the Micro vs Macro evolution, that could be ever demonstrated and supported by the creationists. Your camp of experts have failed to make their point. THE POINT IS DEAD.

Asking for 'missing proof' will never end for those whom do not consider the already overwhelming proof on the table.

Here is an analogy Ken Miller, a devout chistian, and renowned cell biologist offers:

'... you Morningsong, would try and trace back your ancestors. Based on the kind of 'proof' you are asking Morningsong, I bet you anything you will not get past the 4th or 5th level of ancestry, if that.

The fact that you do not find EVIDENCE for every single one of your relative ancestors, will never, ever, amount to the conclusion that you have no ancestry.

It simply means you haven't got evidence for every single ancestor that you do HAVE!!!

The kind of proof for which you are asking, points to nothing other than a negative argumentation.

People whom do not distinguish FACT and FAITH, start into the exploratory conversation with a dogmatic conclusion in hand, no substance whatsoever, and their sole purpose becomes to destroy the other point of view by raising doubt, and spreading confusion around the issue.

Think Morningsong!!!

Let's paint your dream picture here:

'... You succeed in convincing the whole world, that evolution (micro, macro, whatever) is WRONG and NULL!!!

CONGRATULATIONS Morningsong, you won!!!

You have singlehandedly DEBUNKED and negatively argued (a first in the history of humanity) THE THEORY OF EVOLUTION.

But Morningsong, after collecting your Nobel for humanitarian heroism, the whole process wouldn't have gotten you an inch closer to 'PROVING', THE 'AS OF NOW', TOTALLY UNSUBSTANTIATED NOTION OF CREATIONISM.

There exists today, NO BASIS WHATSOEVER FOR THE CREATIONISTS CLAIM !!!

Negating the one to death, does not by default install your fantasy of choice as FACT. That is profound deceit.

Your being lead down the yellow brick road on that one Morningsong.

The western world is fully aware of the bible, and it clear that it serves absolutely no purpose in the domain of FACT, just as science serves no purpose in the domain of FAITH.

It is in essence and in a most fundamental manner, what distinguish human beings as human beings.

The neocortex we share with all other primates accidentally distinguishes itself with a substantially higher number of 'mimmicking neurons', or mirror cells. Our 'awareness', or what we think of as 'awareness', comes from those mirroring cells. They constitute the essential neurological construct of the self-awareness wiring of human beings. Other prinmates have mimmicking cells too, but in fer lower numbers.

This gives human being the distinct burden of being nothing other than 'self aware', ... when he is aware at all.

That is the only thing we truly ontologically know, ... that we know, we know.

We know that we know self out of being self aware, ontologically stated.

Inside that labyrinth of mirrors, that is our imperfect neocortex self-awareness machine, we inherit a construct of this distinct illusion of what we relate to as reality: 'reality is perception' at the centre of which we MUST always be!!!

Awareness stops altogether, when self-awareness stops, whether dead or still alive.

What is striking about Descartes' seemingly simple find, is its debilitating truth.

However advanced, precious, intelligent, connected to a divine plan, etc., whatever the convictions we might hold for ourselves, it is nothing other than self-aware centric SELF-IMPORTANCE.

The huge question raised by Descartes is, '... can human beings be aware beyond SELF-awareness, or without being ATTACHED TO, OR CONSCIOUS of their own self-awareness?!?!?

Kind of a Catch-22 existential vicious circle inside which we very much all find 'ourselves', and only 'ourselves' thus far!!!

Hey people,

XxFoRMxX is 20 years old!!!

Take a step back from egos for a moment, and appreciate (and egos must have gotten twitched).

20 years old!!!

This has nothing to do with agreeing or disagreeing with the points of view he lists out.
You have the right to yours, and he, to his.

20 years old!!!

Amazingly articulate.

Zingful.

Clear, short, succinct (big talent I lack).

Straight talk and honesty, uncensored by fat fake social grace.

Controversial!!! We need more of the likes!!!

Confronting!!! Do we prefer hypocrisy??? Denial??? avoiding and skating around issues???


Keep posting what's on your mind with the straightness and honesty you've shown here XxFoRMxX.

No need to play it up, nor down any.

As it stands, 'it' will rock the place all on its own, and that is a good thing. In fact the complacent world we live in needs a good rocking!!!

Welcome XxFoRMxX.

Sorry.

Are you twisting words on purpose, for fun or out of habit.

How am I suppose to make sense of your reply to me 'Eljay', with your comment

'... because I know I'm not amongst a small elite group who thinks the bible is not evolving...'

I know the first part '... amongst a small elite group...' is coherent with my previous post to which you are replying, but where does the

'... who think THE BIBLE IS EVOLVING???...' come from???

A small elite group founding their faith in a '... bible inerrancy belief...' MUTATES into '...you believing the bible is evolving...'!!!

That's like faith mutating into 'bible inerrancy', mutating into creationism, mutating into Intelligent Design, and getting gruesomely declared 'unscientific', 'unsconstitutional' and a simple matter of faith and belief!!! Back to square one.

I this thread, on this topic, you are invited to address how FAITH mutates into FACT, because you keep making that claim, and yet you never demonstrate how that formidable and incomprehensible feat is achieved.

That is where the debate is at.

None of the creationist, fundamentalist, or other apologetist of the 'expert' kind, have succeeded yet in addressing this FAITH mutating into FACT mystery in the public arena where FACTS, judicial or scientific get to be debated and judged.

So for now, from the scientific and judicial perspectives, the premise you promote as FACT, is but a MYSTERY in reality, or if you wish to make it yours, legitimate material for anyone's personal FAITH!!!

I would appreciate, if you could fond in you to respect and debate the topic of this thread.

With a bit of rigour and mental discipline, it could be a respectful and interesting debate.

Creation as you mean it 'Eljay', is a product of your faith in 'bible inerrancy', and by full extension, your 'word-for-word' belief in the 'STORY' of Genesis, which everyone can read as a story in the bible, but that you choose to beleive VERBATIM.

You are either deceiving knowingly or unknowinfly, when you purposely mix-up
... 'creation science', which doesn't exist in any way shape or form, with
... the 'idea of creation' which in christian terms, is the product of the 'STORY' of Genesis, in the bible, a faith based book and story.

I can write 'flying elephant' right here and right now 'Eljay'.
That will not cause the elephant to grow wings and start flying anytime soon.

My faith and my beliefs of supernatural nature, are not meant to interact directly with the natural world. And yet that is what a lot of humans are compulsively insisting FAITH SHOULD DO!!! That is a huge reduction act, and most unfair to universal FAITH.

It is high noon for humanity to wake-up and evolve that distinction into existence. Faith-Fact paradox.

Evolution affects and deals with the natural dimension of our lives.

We have little option but to deal, debate head-on and remain lucid with the natural dimension of our lives.

To confuse that as you do by, shoving aside the Ken Miller tube dealing with the natural issue in a natural perspective, and shoving me right over to visit a 'Answer from Genesis' instead, which belongs to the religious-faith supernatural side of the equation, is exactly the insane hook I'm addressing here.

You and I have no options dealing with the natural dimensions of our existence. Try not breathing for more than 3-4 minutes!!!

On the other hand, you and I have total freedom and unlimited personal options to believe or not believe, in our personal belief of personal choice, without any consequences on our ethical, or natural, or even supernatural existence.

You believe in Genesis 'et all', and that is a right and freedom you have, which I respect.

I do not share that belief with you. And yet someone else might, and it still wouldn't have any bearing on evolution. I happen to believe in something that is totally incompatible with genesis, or the bible. But I have no intention of convincing you of my beliefs. And while I respect your right to believe in Genesis, I have a real problem when you travestize that belief into a false-fact, which then profoundly interferes with OUR NATURAL DIMENSION.

It's belief on pure faith.
... Not extrapolation,
... not factual extension: 'if when pregnant women give birth, whether or not men might feel pregnant, they will not give birth,
... not verifiable association: if you were in fact 'somewhere' at a specific time, you weren't elsewhere at that exact same time.

Believing or not in Genesis in the exact manner that YOU do 'ELJAY', will not have any impact on our natural world, and even less so on the theory of evolution.

As a matter of FACT, let's assume for a moment that you win!!!
That you are right right, and win total 'consensus of belief' in Genesis right now, everyone, and I mean EVERYONE believes just like you 'eljay',

'... ARE TELLING ME THIS WILL CHANGE AN IOTA ABOUT THE THEORY OF EVOLUTION!?!?!?'

Let's get real 'eljay', FAITH is to be graceful and respected. When one tries to transform FAITH into FACT, it is a formidable REDUCTION act, touching everyone, and doing a great disservice to FAITH itself. I am very sincere with 'Eljay' and would hope that you could reciprocate.

Evolution need not be the life long battle of any christian.

As a matter of fact, all christians should give up 'battling'!!!

It is squarely against everything that Jesus taught.

Where are they all hiding???

Why are we left fighting their own family battle???

It feels a bit like the parents whom have given up on a delinquent child, and hope that he will be handled by the rest of the family or neighborhood community.

0,00262% of the world's christian population, mainly living the US. Isn't it a startling coincidence that virtually all of them should choose to congregate and proselytize here on mingle?!?!?!

Go figure!!!

Congratulations 'Eljay',

You are the proud member a highly select group, mainly found in the US, and comprising 0,00262% of the world christian community.
You and your fellow member, futher distinguish yourselves by 'fundamentally protesting' the faith and beliefs of just about every other christians, comprising 99,997% of the lot, and covering the vast majotiry of catholics, anglicans, orthodox and protestants other than the Fundamentalist-Evangelicalists.

Amicably 'eljay', you have to admit, that that's a tall 'PROTESTING' order.

Well then, you're obviously not one of us, and must be a SUPERNATURAL entity!!!

... but then again, if you are a supernatural entity, what need do you have of beliefs, and why would want to use them to deceive?!?!?!

Out, out, woush woush, out of here fake human and false entity!!!

Courvoisier!!! My favorite!

Thanks 'Smiless', and here's to a simultaneous LUCID in FACT, and GRACEFULL in FAITH human race.

I invite you to catch anything 'Ken Miller', and highly recommend your might start by visiting this extraordinary link which was provided by ‘Lynann’ and ‘Bushidobillyclub’ in related threads: ‘http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/id/

The contents of that link alone could pave the foundation of a 'rapprochement' between the two camps by powerfully putting things in perspective.

Belief is faith, not fact.
Beliefs and faith only exist when FACTS do not apply. A simple and straight forward paradox that some humans have been dealing with for a long time. However, like most things, some humans refuse or simply ignore the fundamental paradox.

Those whom ingnore the FAITH/FACT paradox, insist on confusing and deceiving, rather than honoring the fundamental truth of the FAITH/FACT paradox.

More specifically, one whom believes in ‘bible inerrancy’ personally cannot logically and rationally expect to actually have ‘bible inerrancy’ to turn out to be true in real life. It is a BELIEF.
It is not founded in FACTS.
It is not founded in the dimension of verifiable reality.

It strictly belongs to the FACTLESS, UNPROVABLE, AND UN DEFINABLE domain of our reality as humans.

That domain is referred to as the SUPERNATURAL!!!

You see!!! SUPERNATURAL!!!

Supra: BEYOND nature, BEYOND what is verifiable, BEYOND what is testable, BEYOND SCIENCE!!!

To invest one’s life in thinking-up desperate schemes to link one’s faith and beliefs to a NATURAL REALITY, as opposed to the SUPERNATURAL REALITY to which beliefs and faith belong, is committing oneself to a project of deceit.

To confuse oneself in believing that the words in a book, on which one bases his faith and beliefs, could actually mutate to a smokey concept of

… FAITH MUTATING INTO believed-REAL BIBLE-INERRANCY’, to
… ITSELF MUTATING INTO believed-REAL CREATIONISTIC PREMISE FOR EVERYTHING IN THE UNIVERSE,
… ITSELF MUTATING INTO believed-REAL INTELLIGENT DESIGN
… AND INTELLIGENT DESIGN ABOUT TO MUTATE DUE TO ITS ANNOUNCED EXTINCTION,

IS THE PROOF RIGHT THERE OF THE THOERY OF EVOLUTION!!!

But to call any part of a belief, or part of your faith, however you might disguise it into a form of reality for yourself, to call any of that REAL, or PART OF THE NATURAL, or SCIENTIFIC, IS NOTHING OTHER THAN DECEITFUL.

The debate that some have been holding, which has been opposing Evolution and Creationism is dead. There no sane debate that can be held without respecting critical thinking, and rational thought. Committing such an obvious crime in rational or critical tought, as the one that confuses FAITH AND FATS, is in itself enough to declare 'Evo-Crea' a NON-DEBATE.

The real debate, and there is one, deals with decomposition, or facing the breaking down of the profound deceit of ‘creationism’, and its bible-inerrant ‘common ancestors’.

It squarely begs the need to address the havoc that is caused, in all of humanity’s history, when humans have delusionally deceived themselves and others, by confusing their personal FAITH with FACT!!!

I strongly invite you to visit this extraordinary link which was provided by ‘Lynann’ and ‘Bushidobillyclub’ in related threads: ‘http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/id/

It goes a long way in clarifying the FAITH/FACT confusion and deceit.

Also, catch anything 'Ken Miller'. A renowned Cell Biologist, a devout Christian, and an expert spokesperson for the scientific community in the ‘creationism’ debacle.

Sorry 'Bushidobillyclub',

So the credit goes to both of you for pointing out this excellent site (NOVA).

If there were only one link to spread for a comprehensive round-up, putting this 'bible-inerrancy-dogma' disguising itself as 'creationism', disguising itself as 'ID', disguising itself as science (if that isn't evolution, I don't know what is!), THIS IS THE LINK!!!

The very conservative, devout christian and Bush appointed Judge Jones excerpts of the landmark ruling are in themselves a breath of SANE and FRESH AIR, that had been seriously missing from this whole creationists generated 'SMOKE'!!!

Thanks again to you two!!!

Beautiful job 'Lynann'!!!

Much more comprehensive than the parts I had made available.

My favorites out of the site are in no particular order:

- Judge John Jones reads key excerpts from his landmark ruling. Very short and crisp!!! (I actually took some notes to improve my rather 'long & drippy' writing style :))

- Didn't realize they actually made a documentary about the Dover Case. '... Here, Senior Executive Producer's Story Senior EP Paula Apsell explains why and how NOVA took on the contentious issue behind Kitzmiller v. Dover...'

- Very much key to this whole situation, the courage and the integrity of a handful of teachers, whom stood up against their 'Board': '... Board vs. Teachers Read the Dover School Board's controversial disclaimer on evolution and the memo science teachers wrote in response...'

- And finally, a personnal favorite of mine, the master bebunker IMO, '... In Defense of Evolution
Biologist Ken Miller on why ID is a "science stopper," why evolution matters, and more...'

If one is to pick only one, The Ken Miller interview above is stellar!!!

Thanks 'Lynann'.

Much like your camp, which keeps misquoting and 'confusing the 'truth'' of that book of yours, amateurs of the theory of evolution do not necessarily always quote the most recent sceintific facts,
... which unlike the 'bible-inerrant-fundamentalist-dogma', keep changing, as new discoveries are made, researched, and presented to scientific peers for review and validation.

The right percentage of the DNA we share with the great apes, our common ancestors, is two fold, due two scientific progress.

Until recently, couple decades or so, facts in this arena supported 96,97839% shared DNA (chromosones) with great apes (apes had 24 pairs of chromosones, and humans 23).

That begged the questions from the scientific community (that's their thing 'feral' raisong QUESTIONS), if all other 23 human pairs of chromosones are IDENTICAL to the apes 23, how come humans are missing the one chromosone from apes that would confirm without any doubt the common ancestry hypothesis???

Science has been raising that question an researching the human genome for answers, and they have come up with astounding and facinating findingd which amount to nothing less than PROOF of common ancestry. That's right 'feral', the PROOF you've been asking for, which you probably won't agree with, but that is still the RULING PROOF for the rest of humanity.

It is fair to paraphrase today that we share 100% of the great apes DNA, and thereby confirm without any hesitation the 'common ancestry' reality.

If you are interested 'feral', and you should be, given your commitment for 'open-minded' fair and balanced research', I've take the time to include a particularily well done 'tube' explaining the fusion of chromose #2 in great details.

If it turns out to be too much details 'feral', jump to the 3/4 mark of the video or so, for the conclusion.

Eventhough I don't think any proof would ever change your personnal view of things, and that is certainly not my intent (changing your views or beliefs), I trust that at the very least you will stop asking for 'proof' of common ancestry with great apes, and jump to some other doubt shedding misleading question.

Your creationists experts have done just so. When they were asked, in front of a Court hearing, to counter argue the chromosone #2 fusion confirming common ancestry, '... they had nothing to add!!! ...'. They still don't have anything official or substantiated to add or offer as counter argument from a scientific or judicial point perspective.

Also, the expert case for the scientific side of the fusion of chromosone #2 is being made by Ken Miller, a cell biologist, and a devout, most believing christian, whom very much claims his belief in god, ... adding that god to him would never be the kind of deceptive god that would play poorly designed tricks on humans...'

Here's the link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-WAHpC0Ah0

Whatch it, and tell me what you think.

It could bring us on a whole other ground of exchange 'feral'.

Given that 99,997875% of all christians believe in god, and subscribe to the reality of evolution without any difficulty, I say to myself, why not you!!!

It's a win/win all the way. A perfect christian life, with room for reality!!!

To follow in 'Bushidobillyclub' and 'Krimsa's' general line,

I'd like to point out similar discrepancies in your OP 'DeKLiNe0fMaN' by underlining the age old and dangerously misleading comment and/or accusation of this ancient victimizing 'chistians under attack' mantra.

As long as someone truly brainwashes himself in believing the dangerous delusion that he is 'under attack', HE UNCONSCIOUSLY AND IRRESPONSIBLY JUSTIFIES HIMSELF IN COMMITTING THE MOST UNSPEAKABLE AND MOST IMMORAL ACTS ON THE PLANET.

No christians have ever been, are, or will be under any form of attack SIMPLY FOR 'BELIEVING' OR SIMPLY FOR 'BEING CHRISTIANS'!!!

To write on this post that
'... I notice that a lot of people come under attack just for 'being christian' ...'

is not only profoundly inaccurate, and unfounded in reality, IT IS PARTICIPATING IN THIS 'APOLOGETICS' RETROGRADE MENTALITY THAT CHRISTIANS ARE UNDER ATTACK,

... AND THAT THEY MUST LEGITIMATELY FIGHT WITH ALL THEIR MIGHT, FOR THEIR BELIEFS, THEIR LORD AND THEIR GOD!!!

In 2009, in the western worLd, in the 'church and state seperated CONSTITUTIONAL US' it is nothing other than HERESY.

But more importanly, it is an outright lie, whether intentional or not.

People on these forums, or out there in the world are never being 'attacked' for 'BEING' CHRISITIANS, or being of any other faith.

What is being pointed out to you and the likes of you, is that you are PROSELYTIZING on top of 'being christian', or maybe in spite of it!!!

Maybe it is unconscious. Maybe it is unintentional, that is possible, but you do proselytize. And proselytizing is a mark of huge condecesndance and disrespect towards others. You can't seriously expect that no one will REACT, and shout 'foul'!!!

Subtely or not so subtely, you start by separating the good and the bad, and then imposing a particular 'moralizing' point of view which is yours, and YOU judge that it is good, with the sole intent of attracting others to subscribe to it.

How can one not fall for your 'can't go wrong lottery' trap.
If you believe and there is no god you were covered during your life, and, if you believe and there is a god, you're OK for the whole afterlife.
'... Sign up today for the 2 way 'god-backed' good life and death protection policy, you'll save, ... and be saved !!!

That's proselytizing 'DeKLiNe0fMaN'!!!

Nothing to do with just 'BEING CHRISTIAN'.

Try again, and drop the apologetics proselytizing tactics.

Respectfully to you 'being fully and most legitimately christian according to YOUR beliefs'.

Sorry!

Mainly Baptist, and the overall evangelical pockets, it is nothing other than a Fundamentalistic PROTEST and RESISTANCE phenomenon within the PROTESTANT church, against industrial age modernism. It gave birth in the late 19th beginning of 20th, in the US and GB, to 'Fundamentalist Evangelicalism'.

EXCERPT FROM 'WIKKI'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentalist_Christianity :

Fundamentalist Christianity, also known as Christian Fundamentalism or Fundamentalist Evangelicalism, is a movement that arose mainly within British and American Protestantism in the late 19th and early 20th centuries among conservative evangelical Christians, who, in a reaction to modernism, actively affirmed a fundamental set of Christian beliefs: the inerrancy of the Bible, Sola Scriptura, the virgin birth of Christ, the doctrine of substitutionary atonement, the bodily resurrection of Jesus, and the imminent personal return of Jesus Christ. Some who hold these beliefs reject the label of "fundamentalism," seeing it as a pejorative term for historic Christian doctrine[1] while to others it has become a banner of pride. Such Christians prefer to use the term fundamental as opposed to fundamentalist (i.e. Independent Fundamental Baptist, Independent Fundamental Baptist Association of Michigan, and Independent Fundamental Churches of America.

(read the rest and lots more on fundamentalism)

The reality 'Boo2u', is that this pocket of resistance against reality, represents roughly 0,00262% of the known christian population of the world, and is concentrated in 'fly-over' states in the US.

How is it that they occupy so much of the center floor, you might ask???

1) They are extremely well funded;
... yes, some religious fundamentalist fanatics have been known to have taken advantage of the financial winfalls of 'modernism' in spite of their beliefs,

2) They represent a 'monolithic' group of votes through their cool-aid like, 'bible-inerrancy' mantra, and Reagan was the first President of 'modern times' to identify and exploit the political opportunity that this cool-aid group represented: throw in 'pro-life', 'pro-family', 'Pro-creation', 'Pro-guns', 'Pro-bible-god', and you get them all. Nothing else like it in teh fragmented political landscape of 'modern' US politics.

You can imagine the political lottery on the one hand!!!

... but you wake on the other hand with a social monster which the man (Reagan) has helped create, and that the Republican party is now trying to 'detox' itself from.

I was raised catholic also. Throughout my youth, I thought catholicism (or the only religion I knew) was retrograde. Faced today with this 'fundamentalist-bible-inerrant-apologetist' dogma, has altered my view of catholicism. Compared to the fundamentalists, catholics almost come across as 'enlightened' and 'open-minded'.

To think that it could be conceivable in 2009, to live one's life according to the 'word-for-word' rules one 'interprets' out of a 2000+ year old book of paraboles, stories, and fables, is unthinkable, inconceivable and downright demoralizing!!!

The only light through all this, is the extent of the freedoms our 'MODERN' Western, CHURCH STATE separated democracies affords all.

Ironically, what the 'bible-inerrant-fundamentalists' are against:
... a social fabric, governed by a state that is completely separated from church or religious dogma,
... is the very construct that allows and affords them their religious DELUSIONAL freedom.

But remember 'boo2u', lots of US centric noise, but only 0,00262% of the whole christian world population!!!

That helps put the delusion in its right perspective.