Community > Posts By > voileazur

 
no photo
Sat 02/14/09 10:23 AM
Edited by voileazur on Sat 02/14/09 11:09 AM

What would Buddha say?

Perhaps he would say....


Evolution is not compatible for those who believe the Bible is the answer.


For Buddha's sake, and simply for the pleasure of debating this one with you 'smiless',
if there is anything Buddha left as a legacy, it is 'detachment'.

Based on a Buddha founded sense of detachment, I cannot conceive that he would have condoned the 'attachment to the single answer of a book' in the pseudo quote you have attributed to him

He might have said:

Where attachment reigns, no other knowledge, much less enlightement can enter the head, the heart or the soul.


as of

The Bible is not compatible for those who believe in Evolution as the answer


Believing does not apply in the domain of science. In science, it a matter of verifiable and accepted (by peers) fact, or it isn't.

The 'belief in evolution' thing, is nothing other than a disingeneous constuct of those whom are exclusively attached to a bible inerrant dogma, and feel threatened by aspects of modern thinking and science.

Again, IMO, Buddha would risen above that one.


as of

both are compatible if one has the imagination to make it happen


Compatible wouldn't be the right descrptive in the context. FACT AND FAITH ARE INCOMPATIBLE, and that is not a problem.

The very concept of compatibility exists because the universe is filled with compatible/incompatible construct.
... And where there are no fundamentalists, IT ALL COEXISTS PERFECTLY!!!

That being said, it is a fruitless journey to force everything to be compatible. There is no need for it. It all coexists in spite of our silly personal opinions.

Compatible and incompatible have coexisted forever.

Buddha might have said '... let go, wake-up, and smell the coffee' (this is Buddha saying in general, not to you personally 'smiless'. You are awake, and have smelt the coffee long ago.)

Thanks for the opportunity to counter debate :)



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Sat 02/14/09 09:40 AM
Edited by voileazur on Sat 02/14/09 09:55 AM

Here ya go Krisma.....just on time and true to form.

Just about everything said is self contradictory.

To suggest that 'god, christ (as god), and the bible (as word of god) are PROVEN TO BE REAL BY 'FERAL' ... is more than delusional and a gauche blatant lie in its own right, it is deceitful with the specific intent to deceive.

And that is proselytizing in its worst of forms.

To persistently, and stubbornly push one's BELIEFS as though they were REAL, and never make room for the voices that denounce the lie,

... is no longer BELIEVING,

... it being delusional, and thus engaging IN BEING WILLINGLY AND INTENTIONNALLY DECEITFUL, THE HALLMARK OF ALL PROSELYTIZERS.



Debbie's answer:

First off voil it is not just believed by me.....so that statement is just plain false.


Not sure what your are referring to here 'feral', but I'll make a wild guess and presume that your inferrence as to do with this comment of mine:

'... To suggest that 'god, christ (as god), and the bible (as word of god) are PROVEN TO BE REAL BY 'FERAL' ... is more than delusional and a gauche blatant lie in its own right, it is deceitful with the specific intent to deceive...'

For you 'feral' to believe whatever it is you believe, belongs to the PERSONAL DOMAIN!!! So it is when it comes to believing, for anyone else. Individual experience, personal, no multiplier need apply.

When you cross the line and claim that you will provide 'PROOF' of the 'REAL EXISTENCE' of

'... god, christ (son of god) and bible (word of god)...'

you are no longer in the domain of ...

... belief: 'assent of the mind'; a personal experience if there is one,

or

... faith: 'belief not substantiated by proof; acceptance of 'truth for oneself' or realities for oneself not certified by reason'

To even suggest that you have PROOF for a belief, is an OXYMORON, a blatant contradiction.

When you keep repeating it over and over again, in spite of people pointing the OXYMORON, and the blatant contradiction, you are then entering the zone of proselytizing, and willfull deceit.

Whatever you wish to legitametely believe in 'feral',

... the fact that it is written in your book, and that ... what is written in your book, IS THE WORD OF GOD,

WILL NEVER BE 'PROOF' OF THE EXISTENCE OF YOUR GOD!!!

It matters none, HOW MANY personally believe. No one knows for sure the exact results of the personal constructs of individual belief!!! That is why it remains strictly a personal experience that cannot be argued, IT DOESN'T BELONG TO THE DOMAIN OF REASON.

Public knowledge; what is REAL for all humanity at this point in its journey, is that there exists no material, physical, or otherwise observable facts that could even start to amount to 'PROOF' for the existence of your god, or anyone else's personal god's existence.

It is a matter of belief (please read definition of belief again), and
... It is a matter of FAITH (please read definition of faith again).

And in that sense, it will remain an invitation, a proposition, like soooooo many others, for you or anyone else to '... construct your personal mental assent of the mind or 'belief'...' (please read definition of believe again here).

No proof whatsoever for the existence of 'god, Jesus (as son of god), or the bible (as the word of god). Possible personal belief for those who choose, YES!!! 'PROOF' for it??? REAL??? simply not so. Simply NOT WHAT IT IS!!!

To keep claiming you will keep providing 'proof', which doesn't exist, points to a delusional stand, and a willful practice of deceit.

For proselytizing, see last paragraph.



Self contradictory to you voil....there is a big difference....If you don't believe the same thing as myself so be it...But "YOU" have no right to call what I believe contradictory or anything else. It is my beliefs and just like with feelings voil I am entitled to mine. When I stated that for whatever you come up with I can take scripture and show my side...That is truth...that is my truth and you have no rights to tell me otherwise.

It is what it is......FOR ME AND THE MILLIONS OF CHRISTIANS ON THIS PLANET. I don't tell anyone to believe it voil, and I don't say your going to be struck by lightening if you don't believe as I do...But again to call me delusional with a specific intent to deceive....NOW THAT IS DELUSIONAL.

I don't push my beliefs on anyone....For crying out loud this a religion forum....Would you like me to post Muslim or other beliefs or mine.....get a clue folks. I am never going to say that I am god, you are god, the trees are god, the flowers are god. But I never ever say and please voil just once show me if this is the case.....Believe what I am saying or die....



Now understand one thing.....example Joe Smoe comes into religion threads.....He sees what you abra, and K post....He knows nothing at all about God or anything else. Do you think in a million years I am not going to give him another option. Now here is the key. I don't ever ever ever say joe smoe believe me or die....now do I. I let them read and do with it what they want. And then what goes on behind the scenes is the beautuful part....I don't not once put you down for what you believe....because I don't know what the hell it is you believe....because you spend so much time countering what I say that you never have ever said what it is you believe.



This paragraph above 'feral' could be submitted to 'Webster' as a descriptive example of PROSELYTIZING: 'hunters, their hunting grounds, and their 'prey'!!!

If you prefer that I refer to it as ...

... 'EFFECTIVE OUTREACH MINISTRY ON MINGLE2' (your words),

... than I'm willing to make that conciliatory compromise.

Won't change the fact that 'EFFECTIVE OUTREACH MINISTRY' is nothing other than PROSELYTIZING, and proselytizing is DECEIT.

no photo
Sat 02/14/09 07:09 AM
Edited by voileazur on Sat 02/14/09 07:34 AM
You're right 'feral', you are proselytizing.

But you are wrong 'feral', it is not an accusation, it is an observable fact for all.

And here is yet another observation of that fact:

Before engaging in an exchange with someone,
... before sitting down to read a book,
... an article,
... or a paper-study-report,
... or before engaging with someone on a public forum,
on any, and all subjects or topics, I, like many others, first need to establish the credibility of the source.
This is often based on universal critieria of integrity (whole vs partial), and thus based on an objective perspective and context vs an exclusively subjective one.

Of course the line in being objective is fine. Presenting anything is by default, subjective.

Your subject, topic, and view of any subject, are all subjective. One's point of view is always subjective. So that isn't the objectivity we are referring to.

Rather, it is an objective quality which becomes manifest, through one's expression of a sincerely open-minded and welcoming attitude of the opinion of others, while simultaneously stating one's own convictions, opinions, personal positions or other forms of beliefs. Stating with conviction, while assessing, accepting, and integrating the convictions of others

True exchanges and growth occurs when such a context for 'exchange' is equally shared and respected by a minimum of two people.
Be in the form of
... a reader and the author of a written document,
... an audience and a particular view offered through audio or video media,
... a poster engaging with other posters on a forum,
... or any two people having a conversation on a shared topic of interest.

What kills all form of objectivity, all forms of fruitful exchange, all forms of growth in mutual views and positions on things, is radicalism, fundamentalism, a position founded on closed dogma. To refuse change is to be in profound denial of reality. IT IS LIVING A LIE.

The expression of this deceitful social disease brings the afflicted victim to engage in a conversation in these too often heard dogamtic, and closed-minded terms:

'... this is what I think!!! Too bad for anything or anyone else!!!...'

'... My mind has long been made up on this subject. Nothing, nor anyone could say anything that could ever change my position on the matter...'

or something you 'feral', keep repeating in your inimitable and most celebrated manner :



And remember this folks...for everything that you can come up to say God, Christ and Bible are not real.....I can come up with much more to prove it is exactly what it is....why because God says so.....lol


Just about everything said here, is self contradictory.

To suggest that 'god, christ (as god), and the bible (as word of god) are PROVEN TO BE REAL BY 'FERAL' ... is more than delusional, and a gauche blatant lie on its own stated merits. It is deceitful with the specific intent to deceive.

And that is proselytizing in its worst of forms.

To persistently, and stubbornly push one's BELIEFS as though they were REAL, and never make room for the voices that denounce the lie,

... is no longer the legitimate state of BELIEVING,

... it being delusional, and thus engaging IN BEING WILLFULLY AND INTENTIONNALLY DECEITFUL; THE HALLMARK OF ALL PROSELYTIZERS.


no photo
Fri 02/13/09 05:41 PM
Edited by voileazur on Fri 02/13/09 05:47 PM

Renowned scientist Albert Einstein dismissed the Bible as a collection of “pretty childish” legends and belief in God as a “product of human weaknesses,” according to a letter to be auctioned this week.

Einstein, who was Jewish, also rejects the notion that Jews were God’s chosen people.

The letter was written in German in 1954 to philosopher Eric Gutkind.

It is to be auctioned in London, England, on Thursday by Bloomsbury Auctions, and is expected to fetch between $12,000 and $16,000 US.

Einstein writes "the word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish."

Born to a Jewish family in Germany in 1879, he also adds that "for me, the Jewish religion like all other religions is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions."

He also wrote "the Jewish people to whom I gladly belong, and with whose mentality I have a deep affinity have no different quality for me than all other people.

“As far as my experience goes, they are also no better than other human groups, although they are protected from the worst cancers by a lack of power. Otherwise I cannot see anything 'chosen' about them."

Einstein 'rather quirky about religion': expert
Many have speculated about the religious or spiritual beliefs of the Nobel Prize-winning physicist, whose theory of relativity revolutionized the study of physics.

Some have pointed to Einstein’s quote that God "does not play dice" with the universe (his rejection of the randomness of the universe) as proof of his belief in a higher being.

Others have said that the quote does not advocate a belief in God and have referred to other letters written by Einstein.

"I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly,” he wrote in another letter in 1954. "If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."

John Brooke, professor emeritus of science and religion at Oxford University, told the Associated Press that the letter lends weight to the notion that "Einstein was not a conventional theist" — although he was not an atheist, either.

"Like many great scientists of the past, he is rather quirky about religion, and not always consistent from one period to another," Brooke said

Brooke said Einstein believed "there is some kind of intelligence working its way through nature. But it is certainly not a conventional Christian or Judaic religious view."

Bloomsbury spokesman Richard Caton said the auction house was "100 per cent certain" of the letter's authenticity.

It is being offered at auction for the first time by a private vendor.





Krimsa,

I just had to share a couple of recent insights about fundamentalists whom seem to be driven to severe delusion, and perpetrate devastating acts of deceit.

We all know the amazingly deceitful and grossly false apologetic '#32201955884328984053-h' response,
... better known as:
'DENY, DENY, DENY!!!
... the so public and extensively documented FACT that HITLER WAS A DEVOUT CHRISTIAN, RIGHT THROUGH TO HIS DEATH.

Well, guess what!!! There is this just as amazingly deceitful and grossly delusional apologetic '#322019558843228984053-E' response,
... better known as :
... CLAIM, CLAIM, CLAIM!!!
... The SO PUBLIC NON-CHRISTIAN EINSTEIN, as an INTELLIGENT DESIGN SUPPORTER!!!

Don't tell Abra, is going to flip!!!

But can you fathom this Krimsa!?!?! Eisntein evokes a 'personal belief' in some sort of undefinable, mystifying 'intelligence' at work,

... and these deceptive
fundamentalist-apologetists push response #'#322019558843228984053-E' on the world!!!

I read this claim on these forums, right here Krimsa!!!

What's next Krimsa!?!?!

Will those fundamentalist-deceit-driven apologists invent some delusiaonal claim that Einstein sought to have every single copies of Darwin's 'On the Origins of Species' burned at a stellar bornfire hosted by 'DR' Kent Hovind, Ph.D.' (as he likes to named), in the backyard of the creationism famous PATRIOT BIBLE UNIVERSITY???
(Einstein and Hovind-PBU, anachronistic you say??? Fundamentalists do not bother with such trivial details)

Have they no integrity?!?!?!

Have they no PRIDE!?!?!

Whether we believe or not, I think we should pray for them, and, while we're at it,

... ASK FOR THE END OF DECEIT NOW!!!



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Fri 02/13/09 03:50 PM

There is just no ends to how you stoop is there K. This is symbolic it's not an actual picture of Jesus Christ....my gosh you are something...


I have a black picture of Christ too.....gezzzzzzzz



You 'feral' are the queen of low stoopers. No one, not I, nor Krimsa, nor Abra, will ever, ever, ever, come even close to challenging that 'crown' and title all your own.

P.S.: YOU HAVE AN ACTUAL PICTURE OF JESUS?!?!?!

As I said, the 'CROWN OF LOW SCOOP' is all yours!!!

no photo
Fri 02/13/09 03:35 PM

What is the "Atheist Bus Campaign"?

We are advertising a reassuring, "humanised" message. Originally intended for buses in London the message will now appear on buses across the UK... and on other forms of transport. The message reads:

There's probably no God. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life

The British Humanist Association is one of the atheist bus campaign partners and the slogan is accompanied by links to www.humanism.org.uk, www.richarddawkins.net and www.atheistcampaign.org.
How did the Atheist Bus Campaign start?

The Atheist Bus Campaign began when comedy writer Ariane Sherine wrote a Comment is Free article in June 2008 about the Christian adverts running on London buses. These ads featured the URL of a website which said non-Christians would burn in hell for all eternity. Ariane suggested that atheists reading her article could each donate £5 to fund a reassuring counter-advert.

The Atheist BusPolitical blogger Jon Worth read the article and set up a pledgebank page to which 877 people signed up to pledge £5. The campaign received a boost when the British Humanist Association (BHA) joined the campaign and Richard Dawkins generously agreed to match all donations up to a maximum of £5,500. The BHA set up a Just Giving page where members of the public could donate.

The campaign aimed to raise £5,500 but has ended up raising over £136,000 – enough to support buses all across the UK, adverts on the London Underground and two animated screens in Oxford Street.

Why say ‘stop worrying’?

The Christian ads to which the Atheist Bus Campaign is a response linked to a website that promised non-Christians an eternity of torment in a lake of fire. Pretty worrying. Our ads offer a dissenting view from this and are positive messages, urging that we enjoy our lives.

Why say ‘enjoy your life’?

People who do not believe in gods or other supernatural things, do not usually believe in life after death. Humanists believe that death is the end of our personal existence, that we have only one life and must make the most of it – as Robert Ingersoll, a nineteenth century American humanist said, "The time to be happy is now!"


Isn’t this just atheist preaching – like religions do?

This has been an overwhelmingly positive campaign, as evidenced by thousands of warm, good-natured comments at justgiving.com/atheistbus. It isn't, and was never intended to be an attack on religion or an attempt at "proselytising" for atheism. After all, an advert on a bus isn’t going to convert anyone, and whilst a few – but very few – commentators have seen it as "anti-religious", most have recognised it as a simple statement of non-religious beliefs.


Very refreshing concept indeed!

What strikes me the most in this whole situation though, is the fact that this perfectly tame intitiative, should still be perceived and sold by TRYANNICAL MAINLINE RELIGIONS as some sort of provocation or attack!!! ... and bought off by media and public as such!!! ... in 2009!!!


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Fri 02/13/09 03:07 PM
Edited by voileazur on Fri 02/13/09 03:42 PM




Theologians of all stripes have agreed for thousands of years that beginning of Genesis provides a foundation for our faith. It is not "just a faith account," but the primary purpose is to communicate a message of faith.

As a scientific account that describes the present state of our universe, Genesis is not a very good description. One could easily get the impression that planet Earth is at the center of the solar system. Morning and evening happen for three days without benefit of the sun. The firmament sounds like a big blue dome above the atmosphere, or at least a firm demarcation between man's zone and God's realm. In several places rain seems to come from windows in the sky that are opened to let pour out the water that is held up there. You would think that the words "sphere" or "round" would appear somewhere. We are already interpreting Scripture in the light of science.

Remember that in delivering Genesis by means of fallible humans, God had to thread the account through thousands of years of well-meaning scribes who would be tempted to excise nonsense about the earth orbiting around the sun. Also recall that it took great effort to produce a Bible until Johannes Gutenberg invented the printing press in 1454. In Genesis God had some very important things to communicate to us, and there was no good reason to include pages of details about the physical layout of the cosmos that He knew we would figure out soon enough anyway.

I believe that the same is true for the natural history contained in Genesis. Genesis is not wrong, it is not simply a myth, it is not just a compelling story with no real basis in history. Genesis happened! All of it! But to try to match up each verse with a scientific finding is to ignore the Author's main purpose in giving this account to us. Genesis 1-2 must be read through the eyes of faith, and that is its most important message. If we concentrate too much on the scientific details or mire these chapters in controversy, we will miss the faith message there.

What I Think About the Soundness of the Theory of Evolution

The theory of evolution sounds pretty good as science, especially the enhancements that were made after Darwin, and are still being made based on continuing research and discoveries. The geological and fossil record shows change over a long period of time. We have a long history of changing life forms. Bugs adapt to poison. Moth populations change color. People get taller. Dogs breed into forms that look much different than the original. In general, the theory sounds pretty reasonable. We can observe evolution happening during our own time in small amounts.

Note that much of the evolutionary action does not involve entirely new structures. New structures are hard to develop. We would all like to see a horse develop wings and fly, but that's unlikely to happen. Plenty of evolutionary mileage can be obtained by modifying and changing the existing structures. For example, most of the mammals have the same basic body plan. Giraffes and humans have the same number of vertebrae in their necks (seven). We have the same bones, but the sizes and shapes are different. The large differences that we see in the animal kingdom can be achieved through small, incremental, useful change.

The term microevolution is used to refer to change at the species level or lower. Macroevolution refers to higher-order changes that cause one species to split into two, or morph into an entirely new species. I do not accept the creationist argument that the small changes we see in microevolution cannot add up to macroevolution under the right conditions. This argument is not even logically reasonable unless a "change barrier" is proposed around every species, and I have heard of no such proposal. Indeed, it is true that microevolution does not prove macroevolution, but it certainly supports it.

However, it is still a evolutionary puzzle how microevolution relates to macroevolution. When do we get stasis, and when do we get change? The old Darwinian idea, that microevolution can be simply be extrapolated to macroevolution over long periods of time, is probably not correct because it is too simple:
microevolution + time = macroevolution (too simple)
More recent research indicates that macroevolution involves additional factors, including the ones present in microevolution (natural selection, mutation). So we can update our equation to express the modern understanding:

microevolution + time + isolation + selection pressure + changing environment = macroevolution

These ideas were discussed at the 1980 Chicago Conference on Macroevolution. For more information, please see the Roger Lewin reprint for the entire text of his Science article "Evolutionary Theory Under Fire."

Transitional Fossils

We have transitional fossils, despite the creationist claim that "there are no transitional fossils". We have transitional fossils for humans, too, in spite of the claim that "there are no ape-men." (see Time magazine, August 23, 1999; "How Man Evolved", by Michael Lemonick and Andrea Dorfman, pp. 54-55). The References section of this essay contains links to transitional fossils, including some with pictures.

It is puzzling that transitional fossils are more rare than we would expect. I think that paleontologist Stephen Jay Gould is on the right track with his theory of evolution through Punctuated Equilibrium. This theory states that major changes occur locally in an isolated population, so that fossils are more rare than would be expected by the slow, stately progress of change predicted by Charles Darwin. Punctuated Equilibrium is not just an excuse for finding no transitional fossils, because many such fossils have been found. Transitional forms are found locally for certain animals, and outside the "evolution zone" the transition looks quite abrupt because of migration of the new species and displacement of the original species.


TBRich

You have many original thoughts on the topic at hand, which is good, it shows that you are of an open mind and choose to think for yourself. I applaud you for this.

I respect your opinions, and agree with several of them(feral has already countered the ones I don't agree with) but I would like to state that with an open mind one can make evolution fit while taking Genesis literally.

I must first state that, as I am sure you know, some people have literal views of the Bible and its accounts while others have figurative views.
I don't claim to know which is the correct view but I personally am in the center between taking the Bible figuratively and literally. I believe that understanding individual scriptures mandates that a person chose wisely as to which view to employ.

I find it interesting that several others involved in this thread have stated that the Bible's account of man being formed from dust is irrational. No matter which scientific theory one believes to be true, all of these theories state that all lifeforms have evolved from minerals. Whether God's hand created this lifeform or a countless number years mixed with natural selection is responsible, both accounts protray life beginning from dust. Now for arguments sake:

The most beautiful and impressive statue that exists started as a rock. The statue shares the same base ingredient as the rock but obviously appears to be something all together different.

As in Genesis it states that God created Woman from Man, he could have created Man from another living being already designed(chimp), the Bible, in my opinion, as yours, should be looked at figuratively here when it states man was formed from dust. A piece of plywood is formed from a tree and one can build a shelter with plywood; would it be incorrect to state that the shelter in this example were formed from a tree, instead of plywood? No, the explanation basically left out the obvious as it should be ascertained by the reader.

Genesis states that the animals were created first, then man. So even logically(not spiritually) one could theorize why we share such a high percentage of DNA with Chimps and make evolution compatible with the Bible.

Time periods in the Bible are relatively difficult to define with any certainty in some scriptures. It says in the Bible that a 1,000 days on earth is like 1 day in Heaven. Is this to be taken literally or figuratively? I believe both. This means to me, that time is not as relative in Heaven as it is here on earth(literally) but I do not believe that it was meant to be taken so literally that we should use an exact 1,000 to 1 ratio in understanding this.

My point here is that the first few chapters of Genesis could be speaking in terms of Heavenly time versus earthly time. That would mean that the 7 days of creation described in Genesis could literally be millions or even trillions of years of earth time. What is a few trillion years to God? He is the Alpha and the Omega.

I would not expect a skeptical mind(not meaning you here) to accept much less try to understand my view on this(the Bible states that God will trap the wise in their own cleverness), I am merely stating my opinion in case a Babe in Christ stumbles upon this thread and is confused over the issue. Any seed of doubt in the minds of one of these Babes could be destructive. The Bible calls me to attempt to save these from being lost. In Pauls letter to Jude he says:

Jude 1:17-19 "But remember, my friends, what you were told in the past by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ. They said to you, 'When the last days come, people will appear who will make fun of you, people who follow their own godless desires. These are the people who cause divisions, who are controlled by their natural desires, who do not have the Spirit."

Jude 1:22-23 "Show mercy toward those who have doubts; save others by snatching them out of the fire; and to others show mercy mixed with fear, but hate their very clothes, stained by their sinful lusts."

Someone will most certainly twist the last scripture and claim that it preaches a message of hate. It is hatred for sin, plain and simple.

TBRich it is obvious that you have a strong measure of Faith and are unwavering in your beliefs, God bless you.

Oh, and you are not correct in believing there was no light until the forth day, as feral has stated above.

Genesis 1:5 "And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day."




Of course 'Imgary', there was light alright from the first day!!!

Light/day and darkness/night spot on the first day.

IT'S JUST THAT THE SUN DIDN'T COME INTO THE PICTURE UNTIL THE FOURTH DAY!!!

But who says the bible had to make sense, right!!!

I mean it's god after all, and who's to say that god had to make sense. Not our place to say, we're just his puppet creation.

Maybe for the first three day he held this 'god size' pocket lighter,
... and got tired of holding, or ran out of 'god butane' after three days and nights,
... enventhough god shouldn't get tired,
... nor should he need a pocket lighter, nor should it run on 'god butane',

but anyhow, he certainly must have hung the SUN on the fourth day for godly good reasons he only knows about, because he said : '... and god thought it was good...'

So, I'm sold!
It makes no sense! ... and I BELIEVE!!! ...




... THAT IT MAKES NO SENSE!!!


It makes perfect sense if you don't look at it with blinders on Voileazur. You must read all of the scriptures involved while trying to understand it in proper context. As feral stated above God is the light. I could break it down for you in Biblical terms but you wouldn't get it so I won't waste my time.

Maybe I should use a story to demonstrate:

There was a college professor who challenged his students with what he believed to be a Biblical contradiction. This professor approached his students with the claim that if God created everything as the Bible states then certainly God created evil.

Well one of his students spoke up and broke it down logically for the professor.

The student said to the Professor, "do you believe that cold exists?"

The professor replied "yes, I get cold when I go outside without the proper clothing."

The student countered, "cold is a term that we have brought about to explain the absence of heat. Cold does not exist other than in the literary sense to describe absence of heat."

Example given:

Main Entry: absolute zero
Function: noun
Date: 1808
: a theoretical temperature characterized by complete absence of heat and motion and equivalent to exactly −273.15°C or −459.67°F


Then the student said, Professor do you believe in darkness?

The Professor answered, "yes, the universe is dark mostly and it gets dark when you go into a closet and turn off the light."

The student replied, "Darkness is a term that we have brought about to describe absence of light. Darkness only exists in a literary context as the word cold."

Example given:

Main Entry: 1dark
Pronunciation: \ˈdärk\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English derk, from Old English deorc; akin to Old High German tarchannen to hide
Date: before 12th century
1 a: devoid or partially devoid of light : not receiving, reflecting, transmitting, or radiating light <a dark room> b: transmitting only a portion of light <dark glasses>


Then the student asked, "Professor do you believe in evil?"

The Professor replied, "Ofcourse, I just stated that God must have created evil if as the Bible states, He created everything."

The Student replied, "God did not create evil. As in my first two examples, evil is a word to explain the total absence of God."

I may have the exact words of the quotes slightly off because I am going from memory here but this is a true story.

The student was Albert Einstein. How many of the scientists that you or other people quote to squash the existence of God hold more credibility or are more renown than him in the world of science?

As evil is the absence of God, so is darkness. God does not need a sun to create light. Certain forms of plankton can emit light without a sun, I don't see why it is so hard to understand that God is capable of creating light without a sun.





I don't engage in a 'dual' with an unarmed man 'Imgary'.

Furthermore, I have no interest in engaging in your self-serving, thread highkjacking, compulsive bad habit.

Your three pages of 'off-topic', ego glorification diatribe with Krimsa earlier, and this current perpetration, clearly indicate you are a master at sucking the space dry.

Also, next time you intend to challenge someone in a debate, or any exchange of sorts, DO NO GIVE THEM THE 'AMMUNITION' TO 'SHOOT YOU'!!!

Using Einstein's belief in god to somehow support your fundamentalist, biblical dogma and fairytales, is most disingeneous indeed.

I do not wish to insult you, in spite of the fact that you appear to be quite the fan of that disgracious form,
... and so I will not educate you here on the foundation of Einstein's faith in god.
It would be deemed a cowardly conduct, and I would betray my promise not to engage against an unarmed man.

While I shall refrain from engaging with you in the future, I wouldn't want to be perceived as 'ungenerous', so here is a parting gift:
... I encourage you to do some para apologetics-fundamentalist sourced research on Einstein faith in god.

The religious neutral information will spare you much shame and disgrace in your future highjackings, and our encounter will not have been a total waste of time.

Farewell, and good luck with the 'guitar strummin'.


no photo
Fri 02/13/09 01:38 PM

As soon as anyone starts waffling on about rights, my whiskers start twitching...

Faith, facts, beliefs, rights....

Mythical whims, created by humankind to elevate themselves above something else...


Death has a habit of levelling everyone... the rest is so much guff created for nothing more than whimsy.


Jess642,

Just a tiny clarification (I might have misinderstood your post) :

While I agree with the meaninglessness of all our fabrications,
... what do we do until death levels us all???

Aren't we condemned to 'waffling on' the best we can, with as little deceit as possible!!!

Wouldn't you 'waffle on' a parent abusing and deceiving his/her young child?

Wouldn't 'waffle on' a biggot, deceiving his children, and perpetuating racism???

Wouldn't you 'waffle on' a proselytizer, deceiving others by turning his/her beliefs into the only reality for all???

A clarification would be appreciated.



no photo
Fri 02/13/09 01:10 PM




GREAT!!!

So this thread's a wrap,

... 'feral' FINALLY EMBRACES EVOLUTION, MICRO, MACRO AND HALLO.

As the animation shows, which helped 'feral' get it, micro-macro is one big continuum,
... Not much different than 'MARIO BRO', SOME STAY STUCK AT A LEVEL OF THE GAME, AND OTHERS MOVE ON!!!

So while the primitive APE I am can't, maybe Jeanniebean could welcome 'feral' in the MACRO EVOLUTED CLUB.

P.S.: Who said that an APE couldn't type full sentences on a keyboard?!??!

no photo
Fri 02/13/09 12:49 PM
Edited by voileazur on Fri 02/13/09 01:05 PM







I love that! Very funny. bigsmile laugh laugh laugh laugh

The female sure started wearing lipstick in the early stages of evolution. huh





GREAT!!!

So this thread's a wrap,


... 'feral' FINALLY EMBRACES EVOLUTION, MICRO, MACRO AND HALLO.

As the animation shows, which helped 'feral' get it, micro-macro is one big continuum,
... Not much different than 'MARIO BRO', SOME STAY STUCK AT A LEVEL OF THE GAME, AND OTHERS MOVE ON!!!

So while the primitive APE I am can't, maybe Jeanniebean could welcome 'feral' in the MACRO EVOLUTED CLUB.

P.S.: Who said that an APE couldn't type full sentences on a keyboard?!??!




You are joking right.......







and if you believe this I have a bridge to sell ya





Now this one I by










this is what I think of the whole lot of you who believe you came from anything but God.







Beyond help!

Now that's an examplary message (I'm sure) from a 'model' of the christian fundamentalist, bible-inerrancy dogmatic, and jesus loving proselytizing type !!!

You're right 'feral', there's only so much a good dogamatic fundamentalist little servant like you can do with such hopeless causes as the rest of us.

When are we going to just finally give up our freedom of thought, and replace it with the pre-thought contents of magical book!!!

When are we finally going to see it YOUR way!!!

I get your frustration 'doll'!!!







no photo
Fri 02/13/09 12:30 PM

Voil

God is light and he is creating all that is.....you think his light alone wasn't enough......If it could blind us to look upon it...Imagine when he was creating.

So did the sun need to come in at all while God was creating?

There are many days where the sun isn't around...so what exactly is the point here....We have places that don't see the sun for months...so again what is the point of this argument


So if god is this such blinding light, and it was perfect for teh first three days, and god is everywhere all the time, why is there a need for the sun then.

In engineering, it's called 'overdesigned', and it gets stripped at the drawing board stage!!!

I still BELIEVE!!! ...


... it makes absolutely no sense!!!

But as I said earlier, neither the bible, nor the god that presumably wrote it, need to make any sense.

That's why you need faith 'feral'!!!

no photo
Fri 02/13/09 12:23 PM





I love that! Very funny. bigsmile laugh laugh laugh laugh

The female sure started wearing lipstick in the early stages of evolution. huh



GREAT!!!

So this thread's a wrap,


... 'feral' FINALLY EMBRACES EVOLUTION, MICRO, MACRO AND HALLO.

As the animation shows, which helped 'feral' get it, micro-macro is one big continuum,
... Not much different than 'MARIO BRO', SOME STAY STUCK AT A LEVEL OF THE GAME, AND OTHERS MOVE ON!!!

So while the primitive APE I am can't, maybe Jeanniebean could welcome 'feral' in the MACRO EVOLUTED CLUB.

P.S.: Who said that an APE couldn't type full sentences on a keyboard?!??!

no photo
Fri 02/13/09 11:55 AM
Edited by voileazur on Fri 02/13/09 11:59 AM


Theologians of all stripes have agreed for thousands of years that beginning of Genesis provides a foundation for our faith. It is not "just a faith account," but the primary purpose is to communicate a message of faith.

As a scientific account that describes the present state of our universe, Genesis is not a very good description. One could easily get the impression that planet Earth is at the center of the solar system. Morning and evening happen for three days without benefit of the sun. The firmament sounds like a big blue dome above the atmosphere, or at least a firm demarcation between man's zone and God's realm. In several places rain seems to come from windows in the sky that are opened to let pour out the water that is held up there. You would think that the words "sphere" or "round" would appear somewhere. We are already interpreting Scripture in the light of science.

Remember that in delivering Genesis by means of fallible humans, God had to thread the account through thousands of years of well-meaning scribes who would be tempted to excise nonsense about the earth orbiting around the sun. Also recall that it took great effort to produce a Bible until Johannes Gutenberg invented the printing press in 1454. In Genesis God had some very important things to communicate to us, and there was no good reason to include pages of details about the physical layout of the cosmos that He knew we would figure out soon enough anyway.

I believe that the same is true for the natural history contained in Genesis. Genesis is not wrong, it is not simply a myth, it is not just a compelling story with no real basis in history. Genesis happened! All of it! But to try to match up each verse with a scientific finding is to ignore the Author's main purpose in giving this account to us. Genesis 1-2 must be read through the eyes of faith, and that is its most important message. If we concentrate too much on the scientific details or mire these chapters in controversy, we will miss the faith message there.

What I Think About the Soundness of the Theory of Evolution

The theory of evolution sounds pretty good as science, especially the enhancements that were made after Darwin, and are still being made based on continuing research and discoveries. The geological and fossil record shows change over a long period of time. We have a long history of changing life forms. Bugs adapt to poison. Moth populations change color. People get taller. Dogs breed into forms that look much different than the original. In general, the theory sounds pretty reasonable. We can observe evolution happening during our own time in small amounts.

Note that much of the evolutionary action does not involve entirely new structures. New structures are hard to develop. We would all like to see a horse develop wings and fly, but that's unlikely to happen. Plenty of evolutionary mileage can be obtained by modifying and changing the existing structures. For example, most of the mammals have the same basic body plan. Giraffes and humans have the same number of vertebrae in their necks (seven). We have the same bones, but the sizes and shapes are different. The large differences that we see in the animal kingdom can be achieved through small, incremental, useful change.

The term microevolution is used to refer to change at the species level or lower. Macroevolution refers to higher-order changes that cause one species to split into two, or morph into an entirely new species. I do not accept the creationist argument that the small changes we see in microevolution cannot add up to macroevolution under the right conditions. This argument is not even logically reasonable unless a "change barrier" is proposed around every species, and I have heard of no such proposal. Indeed, it is true that microevolution does not prove macroevolution, but it certainly supports it.

However, it is still a evolutionary puzzle how microevolution relates to macroevolution. When do we get stasis, and when do we get change? The old Darwinian idea, that microevolution can be simply be extrapolated to macroevolution over long periods of time, is probably not correct because it is too simple:
microevolution + time = macroevolution (too simple)
More recent research indicates that macroevolution involves additional factors, including the ones present in microevolution (natural selection, mutation). So we can update our equation to express the modern understanding:

microevolution + time + isolation + selection pressure + changing environment = macroevolution

These ideas were discussed at the 1980 Chicago Conference on Macroevolution. For more information, please see the Roger Lewin reprint for the entire text of his Science article "Evolutionary Theory Under Fire."

Transitional Fossils

We have transitional fossils, despite the creationist claim that "there are no transitional fossils". We have transitional fossils for humans, too, in spite of the claim that "there are no ape-men." (see Time magazine, August 23, 1999; "How Man Evolved", by Michael Lemonick and Andrea Dorfman, pp. 54-55). The References section of this essay contains links to transitional fossils, including some with pictures.

It is puzzling that transitional fossils are more rare than we would expect. I think that paleontologist Stephen Jay Gould is on the right track with his theory of evolution through Punctuated Equilibrium. This theory states that major changes occur locally in an isolated population, so that fossils are more rare than would be expected by the slow, stately progress of change predicted by Charles Darwin. Punctuated Equilibrium is not just an excuse for finding no transitional fossils, because many such fossils have been found. Transitional forms are found locally for certain animals, and outside the "evolution zone" the transition looks quite abrupt because of migration of the new species and displacement of the original species.


TBRich

You have many original thoughts on the topic at hand, which is good, it shows that you are of an open mind and choose to think for yourself. I applaud you for this.

I respect your opinions, and agree with several of them(feral has already countered the ones I don't agree with) but I would like to state that with an open mind one can make evolution fit while taking Genesis literally.

I must first state that, as I am sure you know, some people have literal views of the Bible and its accounts while others have figurative views.
I don't claim to know which is the correct view but I personally am in the center between taking the Bible figuratively and literally. I believe that understanding individual scriptures mandates that a person chose wisely as to which view to employ.

I find it interesting that several others involved in this thread have stated that the Bible's account of man being formed from dust is irrational. No matter which scientific theory one believes to be true, all of these theories state that all lifeforms have evolved from minerals. Whether God's hand created this lifeform or a countless number years mixed with natural selection is responsible, both accounts protray life beginning from dust. Now for arguments sake:

The most beautiful and impressive statue that exists started as a rock. The statue shares the same base ingredient as the rock but obviously appears to be something all together different.

As in Genesis it states that God created Woman from Man, he could have created Man from another living being already designed(chimp), the Bible, in my opinion, as yours, should be looked at figuratively here when it states man was formed from dust. A piece of plywood is formed from a tree and one can build a shelter with plywood; would it be incorrect to state that the shelter in this example were formed from a tree, instead of plywood? No, the explanation basically left out the obvious as it should be ascertained by the reader.

Genesis states that the animals were created first, then man. So even logically(not spiritually) one could theorize why we share such a high percentage of DNA with Chimps and make evolution compatible with the Bible.

Time periods in the Bible are relatively difficult to define with any certainty in some scriptures. It says in the Bible that a 1,000 days on earth is like 1 day in Heaven. Is this to be taken literally or figuratively? I believe both. This means to me, that time is not as relative in Heaven as it is here on earth(literally) but I do not believe that it was meant to be taken so literally that we should use an exact 1,000 to 1 ratio in understanding this.

My point here is that the first few chapters of Genesis could be speaking in terms of Heavenly time versus earthly time. That would mean that the 7 days of creation described in Genesis could literally be millions or even trillions of years of earth time. What is a few trillion years to God? He is the Alpha and the Omega.

I would not expect a skeptical mind(not meaning you here) to accept much less try to understand my view on this(the Bible states that God will trap the wise in their own cleverness), I am merely stating my opinion in case a Babe in Christ stumbles upon this thread and is confused over the issue. Any seed of doubt in the minds of one of these Babes could be destructive. The Bible calls me to attempt to save these from being lost. In Pauls letter to Jude he says:

Jude 1:17-19 "But remember, my friends, what you were told in the past by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ. They said to you, 'When the last days come, people will appear who will make fun of you, people who follow their own godless desires. These are the people who cause divisions, who are controlled by their natural desires, who do not have the Spirit."

Jude 1:22-23 "Show mercy toward those who have doubts; save others by snatching them out of the fire; and to others show mercy mixed with fear, but hate their very clothes, stained by their sinful lusts."

Someone will most certainly twist the last scripture and claim that it preaches a message of hate. It is hatred for sin, plain and simple.

TBRich it is obvious that you have a strong measure of Faith and are unwavering in your beliefs, God bless you.

Oh, and you are not correct in believing there was no light until the forth day, as feral has stated above.

Genesis 1:5 "And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day."




Of course 'Imgary', there was light alright from the first day!!!

Light/day and darkness/night spot on the first day.

IT'S JUST THAT THE SUN DIDN'T COME INTO THE PICTURE UNTIL THE FOURTH DAY!!!

But who says the bible had to make sense, right!!!

I mean it's god after all, and who's to say that god had to make sense. Not our place to say, we're just his puppet creation.

Maybe for the first three day he held this 'god size' pocket lighter,
... and got tired of holding, or ran out of 'god butane' after three days and nights,
... enventhough god shouldn't get tired,
... nor should he need a pocket lighter, nor should it run on 'god butane',

but anyhow, he certainly must have hung the SUN on the fourth day for godly good reasons he only knows about, because he said : '... and god thought it was good...'

So, I'm sold!
It makes no sense! ... and I BELIEVE!!! ...




... THAT IT MAKES NO SENSE!!!

no photo
Thu 02/12/09 08:16 PM
Edited by voileazur on Thu 02/12/09 08:19 PM
Racism, bigotry, cynicism and heartless judging of others are sicknesses of the soul.

When one doesn't keep those ravaging sentiments in check, there comes a time when one looses all touch with one's own humanity.

When that happens to a country, it implodes!!!


no photo
Thu 02/12/09 07:53 PM

excuse me for a minute....


but last time I checked there was no rule for where you took a quote and said anything...that is beyond my comprehension...There are times I go way back in threads because I am not around and I will reply to all that replied to me....cmon K....what the heck is that...

And when does any topic in religion stay on topic...


Get off it and knock it off.



Gives krisma a fence post to argue with...







I've got a better idea 'feral',

Couldn't you ask 'IMGARY' to go and 'strum' his guitar standing on a fence post!?!?!

no photo
Thu 02/12/09 01:36 PM
Edited by voileazur on Thu 02/12/09 01:42 PM
Let's see if I understand the OP's point correctly.

Let's say we have this friend, whom we have all watched over the years, spend way over his means 'cause you know, it was 'gimmy', and nothing was outside 'gimmy's reach. You know, the 'ole King 'o the Castle' syndrome!

Friends and I would tell him, when the revenu started to dwindle, and he kept spending, and the kids kept asking, better adjust to reality 'gimmy'! The well might run dry one of these days.

'gimmy' adjust?!?!? Never!!! The world adjusts to 'gimmy', 'cause 'gimmy' is 'gimmy'!!!
... he would reply automatcally.

Well, 'gimmy' came to visit the other day in his Bombardier, 'Global Express' luxury Jet­, with the sole intent to borrow money from me.

He said things were awful. That if I didn't help him out, that it would be the of the 'gimmy' era, and with it the end of AN ERA FOR ALL.

He stated nonchalantely, the monumental sum he wanted to borrow, while telling me all the terrible things that would happen if I didn't accept.

Well, I told him that I might consider lending him some money, but there would be conditions.

... those warnings we all had given him in the past, he was finally going to have to heed them.

... 'you'll need to show me how you can trim your living style to a level that you can afford,

... and explain to me what you are going to do, to keep earning money since nobody seems to care for what you have to offer anymore.

'gimmy' listened and didn't answer, as he he was walking out the door.

'Oh! 'gimmy' do us all a favor, and put an add in the classified for that flying machine of yours. That will be a good start on your new journey.' ... I told him before he borded the helicopter that would take him back to his flying palace.

Well guess what, 'gimmy' and I went ahead with our arrangement, and low and behold, I get this strange call from someone I don't even know, and that 'gimmy' doesn't know either, and this guy starts giving me **** for lending 'gimmy' the money!!!

GO FIGURE!!!

This guy was letting me have it because he felt it was MY FAULT if 'gimmy's kids could no longer go to private schools in Europe, and go skiing in the Alpes.

Not that the guy gave a darn about the kids, it was 'gimmy' shame that he felt for. How do you think that makes poor 'gimmy' feel!?!?! He would repeat over and over again.

It's all your fault!!!

I hate you, you socialist, money lending, helping friends out jock!!!

P.S.: Can someone help out here? I couldn't possibly have this right?!?!?






no photo
Thu 02/12/09 12:22 PM
Edited by voileazur on Thu 02/12/09 12:30 PM
This claim from creationists that would have scientists split up on the validity of factual foundation of the theory of evolution, is a profoundly misleading one.

The scientific community is as unanimous as can be with respect to the factual validity of the theory of evolution. More and more so, if that can be.

Often times in science, there can be a split in the scientific schools of thought regarding certain emerging propositions.

But to try and imply any form of an official split within the scientific community, when it comes to the theory of evolution, is just about as inconceivable as suggesting that gravity is BS and in deep crisis in the world of science.

Throwing such 'convenient' claim, 'scientists are split', which accomodates a personal faith based position, is done so strictly to confuse the issue.

People, whether they are taxi drivers, teachers, store owners or scientists, WILL HAVE PERSONAL OPINIONS.

To suggest that a faith based personal opinion should have any form of credibility in attacking the integrity of a 'proven' scientific theory is deceitful.

To keep doing it without ever providing a scientific counter argument, is further deceptive,
... and goes squarely against basic human intelligence that the god you might refer to, might have given us.

A personal opinion, even when it is from a scientist, means nothing in front of the scientific community consensus.

Not that scientific consensus couldn't change, but if all you got is a faith based personal opinion, hoping it will transform the consensus, you are truly acting on FAITH, SCIENTIST OR OTHERWISE.

Scientists are humans beings. And human beings will always have personal opinions.

Faith based personal opinions, especially from scientists, should not be confused with scientific consensus!!!

If those scientists still wish to make a claim that might alter the existing scientific consensus with respect to the theory of evolution,
... let them put their faith based personal opinion aside,
... and let them demonstrate their scientific claim from a scientific perspective to scientists peers.

So far, no scientist, christian, creationist, apologetist, fundamentalist or otherwise has come forth with any scientific argumentation for their claim.

Conclusion???

Elementary Watson!

no photo
Thu 02/12/09 10:49 AM
Edited by voileazur on Thu 02/12/09 11:01 AM









flowerforyou


Know any chimps that can type on a keyboard ?

Or talk?

Or dress themselves?

Or write?

Or cook a grand dinner for two?

Or reason?

Or think?

Know any?

Even one?

Just maybe..one?
flowerforyou:heart:flowerforyou


Your ignorance is astounding. So once was mine. I once believed as you do. Now I accept the facts as they are . . .

Once upon a time I knew next to nothing about how evolution actually works.

Get educated, this link has tons of info, both highly educational websites including universities, popular videos, as well as class room lectures.

http://mingle2.com/topic/show/202703

Once you understand how evolution works it becomes clear there is no mechanism to prevent morphological changes that would alter a species enough to keep it from breeding back with its ancestor species. Once that happens then small changes add up due to the fact the genetic material can no longer be passed between these population, and thus the changes add up, the difference becomes greater and greater.

Micro and macro evolution are the same thing, only on different time scales.


Dear Billyflowerforyou ....

Microevolution is KNOWN and Understood, and there is even PROOF that microevolution took place(this is Evolution WITHIN a species ONLY... and usually took place as a species had to ADAPT to its environment) .

Now Macroevolution ..which Evolutionists are just SAYING that also took place ( evolution that transcends the boundaries of a single species.... and becomes a WHOLE OTHER species), is NOT true....it NEVER EVER HAPPENED...and there is NO PROOF whatsoever.

NADA!!!

MACRO EVOLUTION IS Just THEORY....NOT FACT, BILLY!!! flowerforyou

But I don't mind you all sharing...please do...you can even call me ignorant if you want..:wink: ....

But I will also share with you the TRUTH of what God's Word says....

which is again....

"ALL things reproduce after its own KIND"....

Now....God's Word Does NOT change.......

therefore, God saying that "all things reproduce after its own kind" , does not change either........

and will never cahnge....

or else God would be ONE who does NOT keep His Word....

and therefore would be Nothing more than a big fat Liar.

AND IF God is a Liar...and Hs WORD IS a Lie....

then the WHOLE of creation is in CHAOS ..and we are all DOOMED!!!

BUT BILLY....

since Jesus thru His Holy Spirit , came to live in my heart, I KNOW God is NOT a Liar..and I KNOW God's WORD is TRUE !!!!drinker

meaning....

what God said in His Word IS TRUE!!!!


Meaning....

"All things reproduce after its own Kind" is ALSO TRUE......flowerforyou

But Billy, I ALSO Understand, that until man is born again,

man will NOT see or understand what God's Word says....or even believe it....

I do understand..flowerforyou:heart:flowerforyou









Hey Morningsong,

Just a thought.

Your god, according to your book, is omnipotent and omniscient, COULDN'T HIS WORD EVOLVE!!!
Isn't that conceivable???

Just a hint, 99,997% of all christians accept that god's word evolves, and accept evolution micro, macro and all!!!





Well - those 99.997 % who accept that God's word evolves never read the text. It explicitly states that not one "jot or tittle" would change, and anyone wo adds or detracts from it brings eternal damnation on themselves.

I think that if christains believe the word is evolving - hey need to check themselves on whether or not their a christian. For if they don't know Jesus - I doubt he knows them.


Obviously some do not know the history of the bible and how it came to be what we have today if they believe it has not been edited and converted to fit certain agendas. Look it up or here I will help.

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Bible_(King_James)

Old Testament
Genesis | Exodus | Leviticus | Numbers | Deuteronomy | Joshua | Judges | Ruth | 1 Samuel
2 Samuel | 1 Kings | 2 Kings | 1 Chronicles | 2 Chronicles | Ezra | Nehemiah | Esther | Job
Psalms | Proverbs | Ecclesiastes | Song of Solomon | Isaiah | Jeremiah | Lamentations | Ezekiel
Daniel | Hosea | Joel | Amos | Obadiah | Jonah | Micah | Nahum | Habakkuk | Zephaniah | Haggai
Zechariah | Malachi


[edit] New Testament
Matthew | Mark | Luke | John | Acts | Romans | 1 Corinthians | 2 Corinthians | Galatians | Ephesians | Philippians | Colossians
1 Thessalonians | 2 Thessalonians | 1 Timothy | 2 Timothy | Titus | Philemon | Hebrews | James | 1 Peter | 2 Peter | 1 John | 2 John | 3 John
Jude | Revelation


[edit] Deuterocanonical books
The deuterocanonical books (meaning "second canon") are not recognized as part of the canon of the Bible in Protestantism, but are recognized as canonical by the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church. They are also known as the Apocrypha. These books came from the Septuagint, the Greek version of the Old Testament used by early Christians and Jews. They were included in the first editions of the King James Bible, but were removed from some editions by reformers during the 16th century. By the mid-19th century, the deuterocanonical books were generally rejected by Protestant Christians. Judaism used the Septuagint until about the second century AD, but doesn't recognize either the deuterocanonical or New Testament books as part of their own canon, which is known as the Tanakh.

Additions to Daniel
Judith
1 Esdras
2 Esdras
Additions to Esther
Susanna
1 Maccabees
2 Maccabees
Prayer of Manassheh
Sirach
Wisdom of Solomon
Baruch (including the Epistle of Jeremiah)
Tobit
Bel

[edit] Copyright
The King James Version is also known as the Authorized Version. Note that in the United Kingdom, this work is still copyrighted and is subject to a eternal copyright term. Thou shalt obtain permissions to publish in England and Wales by following the guidance in A Brief Guide to Liturgical Copyright, third edition (RTF file). If thou wishest to publish in Scotland, thou shalt contact the Scottish Bible Board for permissions.




This work is in the public domain outside the United Kingdom because the author has been deceased at least 100 years.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

However, this work is under an eternal copyright in the United Kingdom.




Oh - I see, a game of semantics. This argument only holds true if I accept your premise that anyone who follows the text of the cannonized bible and whatever they wish to add t it, is a christain.

But I seriously doubt that we agree on the premise of who is a chrstian and who isn't, so this discussion can't get past the main premise.

Just list me in the percentage of christains that says that the bible does not evolve, and we'll leave it at that.

:wink:


Congratulations 'Eljay',

You are the proud member a highly select group, mainly found in the US, and comprising 0,00262% of the world christian community.
You and your fellow member, futher distinguish yourselves by 'fundamentally protesting' the faith and beliefs of just about every other christians, comprising 99,997% of the lot, and covering the vast majotiry of catholics, anglicans, orthodox and protestants other than the Fundamentalist-Evangelicalists.

Amicably 'eljay', you have to admit, that that's a tall 'PROTESTING' order.


I personally don't care that 99.what-ever think that the bible "evolves". I can't demonstrate from scripture that it does.

Now - if you are refering to the 66 books of the bible, and "all the others" (for lack of a better term) such as the Gnostic scriptures, or the Apocrapha - I have the same feeling about them as well. They say what they say, and are not going to "evolve" into something else. I have not read the "other books" in totality, so I can't comment on their accuracy, or "inspiration" - but my test would simly be to see where they fit into the whole in terms of context. To date - I only have the opinions of others wh have interpreted the text, and well - you now where I stand on people interpeting scripture for me...

I'm curious where you get your per centage though - because I know I'm not amoungst a small elite group who thinks the bible is not evolving.


Are you twisting words on purpose, for fun or out of habit.

How am I suppose to make sense of your reply to me 'Eljay', with your comment

'... because I know I'm not amongst a small elite group who thinks the bible is not evolving...'

I know the first part '... amongst a small elite group...' is coherent with my previous post to which you are replying, but where does the

'... who think THE BIBLE IS EVOLVING???...' come from???

A small elite group founding their faith in a '... bible inerrancy belief...' MUTATES into '...you believing the bible is evolving...'!!!

That's like faith mutating into 'bible inerrancy', mutating into creationism, mutating into Intelligent Design, and getting gruesomely declared 'unscientific', 'unsconstitutional' and a simple matter of faith and belief!!! Back to square one.

I this thread, on this topic, you are invited to address how FAITH mutates into FACT, because you keep making that claim, and yet you never demonstrate how that formidable and incomprehensible feat is achieved.

That is where the debate is at.

None of the creationist, fundamentalist, or other apologetist of the 'expert' kind, have succeeded yet in addressing this FAITH mutating into FACT mystery in the public arena where FACTS, judicial or scientific get to be debated and judged.

So for now, from the scientific and judicial perspectives, the premise you promote as FACT, is but a MYSTERY in reality, or if you wish to make it yours, legitimate material for anyone's personal FAITH!!!

I would appreciate, if you could fond in you to respect and debate the topic of this thread.

With a bit of rigour and mental discipline, it could be a respectful and interesting debate.





Okey. Let's bring this down to basiscs.

Give me the evidence for the theory of Evolution mutating into fact.

We're not discussing the Biblical theory mutating into fact - that is a topic you wish to refute - I have nothing to add to it, as there is no emperical evidence for the "Fact" of creation. Just as there is no emperical evidence for the "fact" of Macro evolution. It is a "FAITH" based theory.



'eljay',

The theory of evolution doesn't have to MUTATE into fact, it already is nothing other than an overwhelming mountain of facts, and nothing other than facts.

I.D., the mutated form of creationism, has no fact, and all faith.

Theory of Evolution's mountain of facts need not wait for your approval before drawing factual conclusions about its moutain of 'evolution' proof.

You and your creationist friends have ludicrously attempted to pass 'evolution' as faith!!!

That is plain and simple desperation. And it has failed miserably where it matters: review the Dover case, and nearly a hundred othe such cases, including one Supreme Court judgement.

'Macro' evolution is a disingeneous fabrication of the creationist camp. It has long been demonstrated that there is only evolution, regardless of size or stage.

How can you STILL sit there and keep claiming that one, when your own camp has given up on it.

The simple REAL question to the creationist camp that killed this disingeneous deceitful claim, was simple enough:

'... CAN YOU DEMONSTRATE CLEARLY WHERE IN THE GENOME, MICRO EVOLUTION OCCURS, AND THE SPECIFIC STAGE WHERE IT BECOMES 'MACRO', AND STOPS OCCURING??? ...'

The creationists would need to finally start making sense, enter a lab, start testing scientifically, in order to come back with tangible testable findings.

How can you keep saying the other guys factual demonstration is wrong, without ever explaining and demonstrating your claim???

No answer. No counter argument. No comeback.

Nothing to substantiate your claim.

That what becomes a deceitful pursuit!!!

The 'Micro' and 'micro' noise, is nothing other than a negative argument, and a most deceitful pursuit.

It stands on nothing.

It cannot be argued scientifically, and it has the pretention of attacking real evidence, facts, and proof in science, without ever justifying its attacks.


YOU AGREE WITH YOUR MICRO-EVOLUTION FABRICATION,

YOU AGREE WITH EVOLUTION PERIOD.

Sorry that you keep insisting that the Human part must agree with the verbatim of your Adam and Eve book, but neither FICTION nor FAITH will ever be compatible with facts.


no photo
Thu 02/12/09 10:18 AM
Edited by voileazur on Thu 02/12/09 10:24 AM
Imagine FAITH and FACT as you would two different languages.

Nothing wrong with either language.

Speaking chinese with other people whom speak chinese, is as effective as doing so in english.

Sometimes, when one has no knowledge of chinese, but is interested in visiting China, learning the language, or using the services of an interpreter are options, such that 'understanding' can take place.

Now, imagine someone, whom only speaks english, barges in on China, and would get all upset ad complain that Chinese people are all wrong, and must learn a manner of speaking such that they can be understood.

In this FAITH - FACT thread, FAITH barges in on science (totally uninvited), and imposes its faith based code or language, and is shocked to find that it is asked to 'speak' science, if it wishes to 'attack' science (they don't mind being 'attacked'. Just do it in science talk). In the end, insisting to 'speak' FAITH in a context of FACT, only 'creates' confusion.

Let's all get real. Incompatible 'languages', or perspectives, as is the case here, will NEVER foster greater understanding.


no photo
Thu 02/12/09 10:03 AM
Edited by voileazur on Thu 02/12/09 10:04 AM

And bats are not birds, so there!. laugh



In keeping with the topic of the post,

... LOOKS LIKE EVOLUTION IS BEING MADE AS CLEAR AS CAN BE,

... WHILE CREATIONISM IS BEING MADE AS MUDDY AS THAT ORIGINAL MATTER CREATIONISTS FEAR MORE THAN DEATH ITSELF!!!


Ironic!!!