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ZAP  I was responding to abortions per se and you to late term terminations.Talk about another can of worms,  the reason for this thread was in response to another. Guess I confused the 2. Thanks for keeping it civil though   Ah yes, time to get to work. 
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Morality cannot be legislated. You can have an opinion on the law, but no one has the right to sit in judgment others for following it, or breaking it. Unless you are a judge. The law is the law. If you don't like it, work to change it. Or MOVE. No one is better than another in this debate, as religion and law are rarely in sync. Laws exist to keep people safe and to govern society. Lilith, were you addressing me personally or the board in general? When I address individuals I quote them or write out the screen name.
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"Any time an expectant mother is a victim of violence, two lives are in the balance, each deserving protection, and each deserving justice. If the crime is murder and the unborn child's life ends, justice demands a full accounting under the law." (quoted complete statement) Abortion, a legal surgery terminating pregnancy. Fran, please correct me if I misunderstand what you are saying. What I read from your post is that the unborn baby is in fact a human being, one of the "two" lives, with rights consisting of protection and justice if it has been murdered while in the womb? Now do you see where I am going with this? Abortion is legalized murder by your definition. Similar to the death penalty only the baby did nothing wrong. No I think you misunderstood  Abortion is a legal surgery some women have to terminate pregnancy. Fetuses (as far as I have researched) are considered human, yet embryos (from conception to 8 to 10th wk) are not. My understanding is that most abortions are performed during the 1st trimester of pregnancy, thereby removing an embroy (not a fetus/not a life). Resulting in NO murder taking place, by legal definition. If I am wrong, please let me know. Ah, we were on opposite discussions. Sorry. I was focusing my discussion on late term pregnancy/abortion, which is what I thought this thread was about as I read the OP. What you are describing is another can of worms. 
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Edited by
Zapchaser
on
Fri 08/29/08 08:58 AM
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two lives are in the balance, each deserving protection, and each deserving justice. If the crime is murder and the unborn child's life ends, justice demands a full accounting under the law." Abortion, a legal surgery terminating pregnancy. Fran, please correct me if I misunderstand what you are saying. What I read from your post is that the unborn baby is in fact a human being, one of the "two" lives, with rights consisting of protection and justice if it has been murdered while in the womb? Now do you see where I am going with this? Abortion is legalized murder by your definition. Similar to the death penalty but the baby had no defense and the baby did nothing wrong. |
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Morality cannot be legislated. You can have an opinion on the law, but no one has the right to sit in judgment others for following it, or breaking it. Unless you are a judge. The law is the law. If you don't like it, work to change it. Or MOVE. No one is better than another in this debate, as religion and law are rarely in sync. Laws exist to keep people safe and to govern society. Lilith, were you addressing me personally or the board in general? |
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Oh I see, you just like to argue, but not really have any feeling behind it...Gotcha...  Peace out brotha....  You have again missed the point. I am not arguing with you. Do I have any personal feelings pertaining to the abortion issue? Of course I do. I refuse to let emotions guide my step on the issue. Whether I agree or disagree with the law, it is the law. I am, again, bringing up what I see as the irony of the law. |
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In the same token, if you are in that car accident and your brain dies and your heart still beats....is that heart viable if removed? If your brain dies your heart stops beating. If the heart is removed quickly enough it can be used to save the life of another. You are missing a huge part of your therory about the people in jail for killing a mother and child....THEY COMMITED MURDER...as the law reads abortion is NOT murder. It's not a theory- it is the law. So killing an unborn baby in a car accident is murder but chemically burning it to death or allowing it to be partially born before a scissors is shoved into its brain from the back of its neck is not murder? Hmmmm I will need to ponder that. If I commit suicide no one is getting charged with anything. If you kill me, you are getting charged with murder. This isn't a difficult concept. what I do to me is legal(esq).... What you do to me IS NOT. Apples and oranges. You have been born. What you do is legal only in the constraints of law. Yes, IF it is removed quickly enough...same goes with the baby.... You just stated "You have been born. What you do is legal only in the constraints of law." I rest my case... and please do answer, what are you actively doing to change the abortion laws? You have clearly skimmed over all that I said and your comment makes no sense at all. Concerning your heart comment, the heart is dead when removed but if oxygenated and cooled it has a chance to be transplanted. You are comparing a baby to an organ? Let's keep posts in tact then so it is easier to follow, what part do you not understand? The blond portions oh yes, if you are losing the arguement, the best thing to do is go straight to insult...Can we keep this on topic please... and I addressed it in a later post. It's not about winning or losing an argument. It's about learning, personal growth, and changing when necessary. Advertising that you are argumentative and your goal is to defeat on a dating site is not necessarily good marketing by the way. I am confident that you weren't trying to come across that way though it could be taken so. You insult me then speak on personal growth? CLASSIC... This is why I try hard to stay out to debates on this subject the oposing side is usually too stubborn and pig headed to listen to logic. Your logic or someone else's logic? My logic? Her logic, his logic their logic? You are assuming that I appose you. I am not here to win as you are. I genuinely want to read what you have to say and I understand that abortion is an emotionally charged issue. Please don't let it shadow your thoughts. I really do want to know what you think and I will tell you what I think. I apologize in advance if my thoughts don't mirror yours. I will respect you just as much if our thoughts differ. and by the way this isn't an arguement, it's a debate... you are the only one argueing.... argueing consist of personal attacks. You called it an argument. I think I laid out a solid scenario of contradiction to discuss. Choose to discuss or walk away. Debates consist of facts and figures, of which you can't seem to comprehend so you resort to personal attacks. Nobe. I'm sorry, which facts and figures did you post? AGAIN, this is a discussion. There is no winning or losing in a discussion. In a discussion it is hoped that we all win by learning from each other. A debate is an argument and once again something that you feel the need to do. What a sad life you live. Not at all! I have a wonderful life!  I hope you do to! |
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I'm comparing the fact that the heart is still beating just as a baby is still alive at point of inpact (sometimes that is) and when removed after impact, depending on how quickly it is done it has a chance to live/be used. Again, you are missing the point. The heart is an organ. The baby is a human being. It receives oxygen and nutrition as well as passing waste via the umbilical cord. Its heart is NOT connected to the mother's heart and its blood is not the mother's blood.It is a human being. In the event the mother dies the baby can be born before its oxygen supply ends so it can be allowed to breathe on its own. without the mothers support (for either the child or the heart) the organ or baby has little to no chance to survive... Yes. due to lack of oxygen and nutrition. Ever try to breathe underwater? Its called drowning. You have no idea where I stand on the many issues associated with abortion. I am merely bringing up points for discussion. Is that not what is done in these threads? At this point is is neither here nor there, as that was not an intrical part of the arguement, it was simply a point of reference. Referring to something that does not pertain to the discussion is misleading, hence the blond comment. My apologies. The point to all of that was, if you are driving drunk and kill me and my unborn child that is murder, and as the law reads if I have an abortion it is not. Yes. Therein lies the irony of it all. Accidentally killing is murder but sticking a scissor into the baby's brain or frying it in saline is legal. Go figure. Maybe mirror is right? We are a sick society. First off the baby is not a human until it is born... (not by my standards but in the eyes of the law) and most importantly driving drunk is not an accident it is a concious choice you made and is also an illegal act. If you drive drunk and kill someone it is murder. If I aimlessly shoot a gun and miss.... I got lucky, if I hit someone it's murder... It's a concious act you willingly participated in. the fact of the matter is, as of now it is legal to have an abortion, it is illegal to kill someone. I understand that people have this moral and ethical drive to force feed their morals and ethics onto others... If that is your desire, then ACTIVELY work for change...but stop whinning and moaning that the whole world doesn't see it your way... Be part of the solution, not part of the problem. If you feel abortion is a horrible act, then don't have one, convince those around you that may be considering it to not have one.... but stop pushing your morals onto people who don't hold those same morals. You have no idea where I stand on the many facets of the abortion issue. I am merely debating the issues. Is that not what is done on these boards? |
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I'm comparing the fact that the heart is still beating just as a baby is still alive at point of inpact (sometimes that is) and when removed after impact, depending on how quickly it is done it has a chance to live/be used. Again, you are missing the point. The heart is an organ. The baby is a human being. It receives oxygen and nutrition as well as passing waste via the umbilical cord. Its heart is NOT connected to the mother's heart and its blood is not the mother's blood.It is a human being. In the event the mother dies the baby can be born before its oxygen supply ends so it can be allowed to breathe on its own. without the mothers support (for either the child or the heart) the organ or baby has little to no chance to survive... Yes. due to lack of oxygen and nutrition. Ever try to breathe underwater? Its called drowning. You have no idea where I stand on the many issues associated with abortion. I am merely bringing up points for discussion. Is that not what is done in these threads? At this point is is neither here nor there, as that was not an intrical part of the arguement, it was simply a point of reference. Referring to something that does not pertain to the discussion is misleading, hence the blond comment. My apologies. The point to all of that was, if you are driving drunk and kill me and my unborn child that is murder, and as the law reads if I have an abortion it is not. Yes. Therein lies the irony of it all. Accidentally killing is murder but sticking a scissor into the baby's brain or frying it in saline is legal. Go figure. Maybe mirror is right? We are a sick society. First off the baby is not a human until it is born... (not by my standards but in the eyes of the law) and most importantly driving drunk is not an accident it is a concious choice you made and is also an illegal act. If you drive drunk and kill someone it is murder. If I aimlessly shoot a gun and miss.... I got lucky, if I hit someone it's murder... It's a concious act you willingly participated in. the fact of the matter is, as of now it is legal to have an abortion, it is illegal to kill someone. I understand that people have this moral and ethical drive to force feed their morals and ethics onto others... If that is your desire, then ACTIVELY work for change...but stop whinning and moaning that the whole world doesn't see it your way... Be part of the solution, not part of the problem. If you feel abortion is a horrible act, then don't have one, convince those around you that may be considering it to not have one.... but stop pushing your morals onto people who don't hold those same morals. |
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In the same token, if you are in that car accident and your brain dies and your heart still beats....is that heart viable if removed? If your brain dies your heart stops beating. If the heart is removed quickly enough it can be used to save the life of another. You are missing a huge part of your therory about the people in jail for killing a mother and child....THEY COMMITED MURDER...as the law reads abortion is NOT murder. It's not a theory- it is the law. So killing an unborn baby in a car accident is murder but chemically burning it to death or allowing it to be partially born before a scissors is shoved into its brain from the back of its neck is not murder? Hmmmm I will need to ponder that. If I commit suicide no one is getting charged with anything. If you kill me, you are getting charged with murder. This isn't a difficult concept. what I do to me is legal(esq).... What you do to me IS NOT. Apples and oranges. You have been born. What you do is legal only in the constraints of law. Yes, IF it is removed quickly enough...same goes with the baby.... You just stated "You have been born. What you do is legal only in the constraints of law." I rest my case... and please do answer, what are you actively doing to change the abortion laws? You have clearly skimmed over all that I said and your comment makes no sense at all. Concerning your heart comment, the heart is dead when removed but if oxygenated and cooled it has a chance to be transplanted. You are comparing a baby to an organ? Let's keep posts in tact then so it is easier to follow, what part do you not understand? The blond portions oh yes, if you are losing the arguement, the best thing to do is go straight to insult...Can we keep this on topic please... and I addressed it in a later post. It's not about winning or losing an argument. It's about learning, personal growth, and changing when necessary. Advertising that you are argumentative and your goal is to defeat on a dating site is not necessarily good marketing by the way. I am confident that you weren't trying to come across that way though it could be taken so.
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I'm comparing the fact that the heart is still beating just as a baby is still alive at point of inpact (sometimes that is) and when removed after impact, depending on how quickly it is done it has a chance to live/be used. Again, you are missing the point. The heart is an organ. The baby is a human being. It receives oxygen and nutrition as well as passing waste via the umbilical cord. Its heart is NOT connected to the mother's heart and its blood is not the mother's blood.It is a human being. In the event the mother dies the baby can be born before its oxygen supply ends so it can be allowed to breathe on its own. without the mothers support (for either the child or the heart) the organ or baby has little to no chance to survive... Yes. due to lack of oxygen and nutrition. Ever try to breathe underwater? Its called drowning. At this point is is neither here nor there, as that was not an intrical part of the arguement, it was simply a point of reference. Referring to something that does not pertain to the discussion is misleading, hence the blond comment. My apologies. The point to all of that was, if you are driving drunk and kill me and my unborn child that is murder, and as the law reads if I have an abortion it is not. Yes. Therein lies the irony of it all. Accidentally killing is murder but sticking a scissor into the baby's brain or frying it in saline is legal. Go figure. Maybe mirror is right? We are a sick society. |
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my question is a simple one, why are so many people interested and focused on taking the rights away from "women who chose" to have abortions? An individuals rights begin at birth until the umbilical cord is severed it (embryo/fetus) is considered part of the mother. Part of her body, therefore her choice. no? Her choice? The law says it is so it is. Part of her body? No. Say a person is driving drunk and hits a car being driven by a pregnant woman and she dies- does the baby die? Only when it has been starved of oxygen. Should a paramedic arrive and delivers the living baby before that happens does the mother miraculously revive herself? Of course not. It is so hard for some to realize that the baby is a baby. It doesn't miraculously turn human when the umbilical cord is cut. That is absurdity at its best.If an individuals rights begin at birth then you might want to inform all of the inmates who are in the crow bar motel getting a striped tan after being sentenced for the deat of the mother and her unborn child. Zap, while I respect your views, I dont follow your logic, this is like comparing apples to oranges. These arguments/disagreements will continue but I am looking for facts. I found that indeed an individual rights begin at birth and until the umbilical cord is severed (embryo/fetus) is a part of it's mother. Cant argue with that, it is attached to it's mother via placenta/umbilical cord. Can we agree on this? Also maybe I misunderstood, but if an individuals rights do not begin until birth, why are so many trying to get involved or share/push their views on those women who chose to have abortions? Thanks fran! The point I was trying to make was that it is law. If you drive drunk and kill a mother and an unborn baby you will be charged for TWO murders. How can you be charged if the baby is considered a "viable tissue mass?" |
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In the same token, if you are in that car accident and your brain dies and your heart still beats....is that heart viable if removed? If your brain dies your heart stops beating. If the heart is removed quickly enough it can be used to save the life of another. You are missing a huge part of your therory about the people in jail for killing a mother and child....THEY COMMITED MURDER...as the law reads abortion is NOT murder. It's not a theory- it is the law. So killing an unborn baby in a car accident is murder but chemically burning it to death or allowing it to be partially born before a scissors is shoved into its brain from the back of its neck is not murder? Hmmmm I will need to ponder that. If I commit suicide no one is getting charged with anything. If you kill me, you are getting charged with murder. This isn't a difficult concept. what I do to me is legal(esq).... What you do to me IS NOT. Apples and oranges. You have been born. What you do is legal only in the constraints of law. Yes, IF it is removed quickly enough...same goes with the baby.... You just stated "You have been born. What you do is legal only in the constraints of law." I rest my case... and please do answer, what are you actively doing to change the abortion laws? You have clearly skimmed over all that I said and your comment makes no sense at all. Concerning your heart comment, the heart is dead when removed but if oxygenated and cooled it has a chance to be transplanted. You are comparing a baby to an organ? Let's keep posts in tact then so it is easier to follow, what part do you not understand? The blond portions |
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I wanna know from all the anti-choice people...what are you ACTIVELY doing to change the laws? That is an unfair question. People's opinions on the complicated issue of abortion are as varied as the scenarios. I would say they are voting their conscience. You? It's very fair, I told my 6 year old this morning, If you are not willing to fix the problem, you are not allowed to complain about it... If you are anti-choice and you do NOTHING to resolve the problem.... you are part of the problem. Thank you. I agree that it is a problem. Would you be happy if we all quit working to go to Washington and protest? We vote for representatives that speak for us in whatever it is we believe- pro-abortion or pro-life. Congress makes the laws and they are voted in. Please don't make me explain what we all know about the branches of the federal govt. Typing text on a dating site isn't part of the solution. The upcoming election is. Vote your conscience. |
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Edited by
Zapchaser
on
Fri 08/29/08 07:33 AM
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In the same token, if you are in that car accident and your brain dies and your heart still beats....is that heart viable if removed? If your brain dies your heart stops beating. If the heart is removed quickly enough it can be used to save the life of another. You are missing a huge part of your therory about the people in jail for killing a mother and child....THEY COMMITED MURDER...as the law reads abortion is NOT murder. It's not a theory- it is the law. So killing an unborn baby in a car accident is murder but chemically burning it to death or allowing it to be partially born before a scissors is shoved into its brain from the back of its neck is not murder? Hmmmm I will need to ponder that. If I commit suicide no one is getting charged with anything. If you kill me, you are getting charged with murder. This isn't a difficult concept. what I do to me is legal(esq).... What you do to me IS NOT. Apples and oranges. You have been born. What you do is legal only in the constraints of law. Yes, IF it is removed quickly enough...same goes with the baby.... You just stated "You have been born. What you do is legal only in the constraints of law." I rest my case... and please do answer, what are you actively doing to change the abortion laws? You have clearly skimmed over all that I said and your comment makes no sense at all. Concerning your heart comment, the heart is dead when removed but if oxygenated and cooled it has a chance to be transplanted. You are comparing a baby to an organ? |
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I wanna know from all the anti-choice people...what are you ACTIVELY doing to change the laws? That is an unfair question. People's opinions on the complicated issue of abortion are as varied as the scenarios. I would say they are voting their conscience. You? |
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my question is a simple one, why are so many people interested and focused on taking the rights away from "women who chose" to have abortions? An individuals rights begin at birth until the umbilical cord is severed it (embryo/fetus) is considered part of the mother. Part of her body, therefore her choice. no? Her choice? The law says it is so it is. Part of her body? No. Say a person is driving drunk and hits a car being driven by a pregnant woman and she dies- does the baby die? Only when it has been starved of oxygen. Should a paramedic arrive and delivers the living baby before that happens does the mother miraculously revive herself? Of course not. It is so hard for some to realize that the baby is a baby. It doesn't miraculously turn human when the umbilical cord is cut. That is absurdity at its best.If an individuals rights begin at birth then you might want to inform all of the inmates who are in the crow bar motel getting a striped tan after being sentenced for the deat of the mother and her unborn child. In the same token, if you are in that car accident and your brain dies and your heart still beats....is that heart viable if removed? If your brain dies your heart stops beating. If the heart is removed quickly enough it can be used to save the life of another. You are missing a huge part of your therory about the people in jail for killing a mother and child....THEY COMMITED MURDER...as the law reads abortion is NOT murder. It's not a theory- it is the law. So killing an unborn baby in a car accident is murder but chemically burning it to death or allowing it to be partially born before a scissors is shoved into its brain from the back of its neck is not murder? Hmmmm I will need to ponder that. If I commit suicide no one is getting charged with anything. If you kill me, you are getting charged with murder. This isn't a difficult concept. what I do to me is legal(esq).... What you do to me IS NOT. Apples and oranges. You have been born. What you do is legal only in the constraints of law. |
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my question is a simple one, why are so many people interested and focused on taking the rights away from "women who chose" to have abortions? An individuals rights begin at birth until the umbilical cord is severed it (embryo/fetus) is considered part of the mother. Part of her body, therefore her choice. no? Her choice? The law says it is so it is. Part of her body? No. Say a person is driving drunk and hits a car being driven by a pregnant woman and she dies- does the baby die? Only when it has been starved of oxygen. Should a paramedic arrive and delivers the living baby before that happens does the mother miraculously revive herself? Of course not. It is so hard for some to realize that the baby is a baby. It doesn't miraculously turn human when the umbilical cord is cut. That is absurdity at its best.If an individuals rights begin at birth then you might want to inform all of the inmates who are in the crow bar motel getting a striped tan after being sentenced for the deat of the mother and her unborn child.  What rights? We have no rights before we are born nor after we are born. Surely you don't expect a response to your questions? Are you on the pity pot? Life is a roller coaster. You can enjoy the ride, hate it and scream until it ends, or get off. Those are the three choices.
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Its the womans right to choose. How can I tell a woman what to do with her body? Besides, a lot of people dont have anything to look forward to in life. Its an endless struggle just to survive unless your lucky enough to have rich mommy and daddy.I hate that. I hate that I have had to compete and take from others so I can have a decent life. I hate it and I'll never forget it. And no matter how hard I work to get by, I could lose it all with one bad decision or if I get sick. This isnt a life worth living. Some of you people act like life is a blessing. Its like you think your doing someone a favor by bringing them into this world of struggle and suffering. Man mirror! You are being such a downer!  Stop letting the past control you pal. This isn't a life worth living? Sorry you feel that way. Most of us see it differently.
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my question is a simple one, why are so many people interested and focused on taking the rights away from "women who chose" to have abortions? An individuals rights begin at birth until the umbilical cord is severed it (embryo/fetus) is considered part of the mother. Part of her body, therefore her choice. no? Her choice? The law says it is so it is. Part of her body? No. Say a person is driving drunk and hits a car being driven by a pregnant woman and she dies- does the baby die? Only when it has been starved of oxygen. Should a paramedic arrive and delivers the living baby before that happens does the mother miraculously revive herself? Of course not. It is so hard for some to realize that the baby is a baby. It doesn't miraculously turn human when the umbilical cord is cut. That is absurdity at its best.If an individuals rights begin at birth then you might want to inform all of the inmates who are in the crow bar motel getting a striped tan after being sentenced for the deat of the mother and her unborn child. |
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