Your best bet is to learn the science, and learn the history of the science involved. It takes effort, so I know most wont want to, but at the end of it if you are honest with yourself and really truly interested in science it will be easy to see how staggering the evidence for evolution really is.

I was a ID, creationist proponent once upon a time. Before I broke my back and in my crippled down time read many many science books, and then upon finishing rehab went back to college for physics.

Anyone can do it, it just takes effort and an honest desire to learn.

I have learned that there is really a very few ways to gain true knowledge, but many ways to deceive yourself. That is where skepticism, and critical thinking come into play to develop the ability to easily break down science and know BS when you see it.

Religion really has nothing to do with it.

And there are plenty of people who believe in evolution, but don't know anything about it. And then there are threads like this one, which presents creation vs evolution as opposites. There are billions of stupid, uneducated people in the world. It sometimes seems that one side of the debate is convinced that all of the stupid people are on the other side.

In any case the problem with DNA lengthening is described by historic cases where interspecies breeding was successful in producing viable offspring. DNA can be lengthened or shortened by this process and explains why humans have one less DNA strand than the other Great Apes.

From Wiki:

Chromosomal polymorphism
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search

In genetics, chromosomal polymorphism is a condition where one species contains members with varying chromosome counts or shapes. Polymorphism is a general concept in biology where more than one version of a trait is present in a population.

With all due respect, you do not understand the comments or the references. The telomeres are positive proof of the condition that you have predetermined cannot be proven, therefore your position states that your position is confirmed when in actuality, you simply don't understand the proof.

You said that telomeres could have a creator purpose which is just silly. Your understanding of polymorphism in the context of chromosomal polymorphism is completely opposite of reality.

I respect your beliefs even if you want to force false information into your version of "proof". Your lack of understanding of these processes does not translate into my lack of understanding of these processes. You are using intellectual dishonesty to try to make a point and all you are really doing is showing that you do not understand the topic sufficiently to debate on a scientific level.

If you go back and carefully reread your statements in this thread, you change your facts to match your theory. You change your understanding of facts presented to you to match your theory. When all else fails, you state that I am not making a point that you don't understand because it doesn't fit your theory.

If you are just learning about telomeres, you are a newbie to the topic by any standard. As my father used to say, "No one ever learned anything with their mouth open." Try rereading my posts again with an open mind. You might learn something. I don't have any axes to grind on this topic. You obviously do.

I used the Wiki post because it is simple and well written and, to my knowledge, nothing in it is scientifically disputed. I suggest you go back and reread the reason great apes have one more chromosome than we do. It's not that complicated. Neither is the reason our DNA has snippets of Neanderthal.

In any case the problem with DNA lengthening is described by historic cases where interspecies breeding was successful in producing viable offspring. DNA can be lengthened or shortened by this process and explains why humans have one less DNA strand than the other Great Apes.

From Wiki:

Chromosomal polymorphism
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search

In genetics, chromosomal polymorphism is a condition where one species contains members with varying chromosome counts or shapes. Polymorphism is a general concept in biology where more than one version of a trait is present in a population.

In some cases of differing counts, the difference in chromosome counts is the result of a single chromosome undergoing fission, where it splits into two smaller chromosomes, or two undergoing fusion, where two chromosomes join to form one.

This condition has been detected in many species. Trichomycterus davisi, for example, is an extreme case where the polymorphism was present within a single chimeric individual.[1]

It has also been studied in alfalfa,[2] shrews,[3] Brazilian rodents,[4] and an enormous variety of other animals and plants.[5] In one instance it has been found in a human.[6]

Another process resulting in differing chromosomal counts is polyploidy. This results in cells which contain multiple copies of complete chromosome sets.

Possessing chromosomes of varying shapes is generally the result of a chromosomal translocation or chromosomal inversion.

In a translocation, genetic material is transferred from one chromosome to another, either symmetrically or asymmetrically (a Robertsonian translocation).

In an inversion, a segment of a chromosome is flipped end-for-end.
Implications for speciation

All forms of chromosomal polymorphism can be viewed as a step towards speciation. Polymorphisms will generally result in a level of reduced fertility, because some gametes from one parent cannot successfully combine with all gametes of the other parent. However, when both parents contain matching chromosomal patterns, this obstacle does not occur. Further mutations in one group will not flow as rapidly into the other group as they do within the group in which it originally occurred.

Further mutations can also cause absolute infertility. If an interbreeding population contains one group in which (for example) chromosomes A and B have fused, and another population in which chromosomes B and C have fused, both populations will be able to interbreed with the parent population. However, the two subpopulations will not be able to breed successfully with each other if the doubling of chromosome B is fatal. Similar difficulties will occur for incompatible translocations of material.
References

^ Borin, Luciana Andreia; Isabel Cristina Martins-Santos (September 2000). "Intra-individual numerical chromosomal polymorphism in Trichomycterus davisi (Siluriformes, Trichomycteridae) from the Iguaçu River basin in Brazil". Genet. Mol. Biol. 23 (3). doi:10.1590/S1415-47572000000300018. Retrieved 2006-12-08.
^ Bauchan,, Gary R.; T. Austin Campbell, and M. Azhar Hossain (1 July 2002). "Chromosomal Polymorphism as Detected by C-Banding Patterns in Chilean Alfalfa Germplasm". Crop Sci. 42 (4): 1291–7. doi:10.2135/cropsci2002.1291.
^ Elrod DA, Beck ML, Kennedy ML (October 1996). "Chromosomal variation in the southern short-tailed shrew (Blarina carolinensis)". Genetica 98 (2): 199–203. doi:10.1007/BF00121367. PMID 8999000.
^ Thales Renato O. de Freitas (1997). "Chromosome polymorphism in Ctenomys minutus (Rodentia-Octodontidae)". Braz. J. Genet. 20 (1). doi:10.1590/S0100-84551997000100001.
^ http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=chromosomal+polymorphism&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&btnG=Search
^ Understanding Genetics:The 44 Chromosome Man And What He Reveals About Our Genetic Past

Well, I certainly think I see the point you are trying to make but I think you are distorting the facts to fit your theory. I take it that your position is that the human genome was "created" intact in it's present form. That theory does not hold up to scientific observation.

You have mixed concepts of mutation and species creation with a limited view of how genomes are formed with great emphasis on the inability for DNA to lengthen by mutation. That is simply not how evolution works although it is PART of how evolution works.

Cross breeding between similar species has gone on pretty much from the beginning. The process is described above in the Wiki text. The process can lengthen, shorten, or add DNA strands to the genome and if the offspring are viable, they can be carried on to future generations.

The human genome has exactly that pattern and a telomere in the middle of a a chromosome is positive proof of it. For you to think the creator made human DNA with a telomere stuck in the middle as part of a "purpose" is kinda silly IMHO. It pretty much only has one way of getting there and that is sex with another species. Referring to telomere "mutation" is incorrect terminology both literally and functionally.

There are snippets of Neanderthal genome in human DNA depending upon what part of the World you are from.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703686304575228380902037988.html

Further back in time, there were lots of species of hominid..

LOL Telomeres have a really specific function! They keep the ends of the DNA chain from unraveling like a knot. They lose one "link" when the cell divides giving an effective lifespan to the organism. If you find a telomere in the middle of a chromosome, you have found positive proof that the strand once was two strands that joined. In the case of the Great Apes, two strands joined to make one; albeit a long one.

You ask for proof and get it. Now you want to force the evidence to fit an alternate theory?

Why can't you just accept that evolution is no different from math and physics and believe that it is God's way of making things happen?

Telomeres having a "created" function? They slowly disappear until the creature dies. They keep the DNA from unraveling. That's a pretty specific purpose unless they are found in the middle of the DNA strand at which case they do nothing but take up space.

There is a LOT of work going on artificially lengthen telomeres for the purpose of increasing lifespan. A major obstacle is that allowing cells to forever divide is a recipe for cancer. As the reactions slowly (actually extremely rapidly in human history terms) become known, the proper combination of enzymes and drugs will probably appear to lengthen human life ... perhaps indefinitely and perhaps soon.

I think you would find the following related topic interesting.

The new field is called synthetic biology.

http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/5880436-man-creates-worlds-first-synthetic-life

There are many many slight differences, nearly every chromosone of a human has differences to an ape's. Most species have mutations, these are rarely beneficial. You seem to be pointing to a lengthening mutation in human DNA as the most significant variation between the two species, when there are many other DNA differences in many other chromosones that show no signs of mutation.

Have you got any proof that the mutation involving "useless fluff" is the reason behind mankind's evolving, or do you think the differences between the species could be found in the many other slight DNA differences between man and ape?






My belief is that intelligent design created the uniqueness that is human. The human telomere mutations are not intelligent design, its flaws that have occurred since. If they are not beneficial, both science and creation could admit that its newer flaws that occurred, and have been passed on genetically. The reason the DNA is so similar is because God created the creatures so similar, using the same effective pattern every time. The more similar the creation, the more similar the DNA. Empirically there is nothing in evidence that would favour evolution over creation. Nothing you see in DNA analysis contradicts creation.

Your statement confuses me. There are no major differences between human and ape DNA and the major identical genomes are listed in my post. The 2 and 4 strands are connected by telomeres which is direct evidence that a lengthening occurred leaving the telomeres behind as useless fluff. What could possibly be better evidence than that? The discussion provided cites examples of how it works and claims to have numerous examples, several of which are quoted.

Are you making the claim that the human DNA strand which is extra long and connected in the middle with a telomere with the two ends that match great ape DNA strands was part of intelligent design and not part of interspecies breeding some one million plus years ago? If so, that's not very logical

Perhaps I misread your posts. I had the impression you were acknowledging the rarely beneficial effect of mutation and stating that it cannot cause DNA lengthening.

Over the long run I think the effects of mutation are very beneficial in allowing creatures to fill niches as discovered by Darwin and the Finches

Seems like 2 and 4 of the human set is your smoking gun! It is what separates us from the apes. That would seem like a big improvement.

Depending on your standard of evidence, you can say that we've observed millions of beneficial mutations (in the same way that one can observe hundreds of picasso paintings...having never seen picasso paint), or that we have observed a handful, or that we may never observe a mutation.

Fair enough, and I've enjoyed the quality of your subsequent posts

See, I'm not sure that they did "show an increase from a single cell to arthropod". It's quite possible that complex precursors to arthropods had been quietly evolving for a long time, and simply not leaving much evidence behind of their existence. It's not surprising to me that there would be a rapid uptake of hard shells among whatever illusive, soft bodied species existed.

I can see why one might see this as the essence of the creation/evolution debate, but I disagree that it is. It seems to me that the creation/evolution debate is multifaceted. No single facet strikes me as the 'essence' of it. For too many people, the real essence of the debate (for them) is whether or not to accept the bible as an absolute authority.

All forms of chromosomal polymorphism can be viewed as a step towards speciation. Polymorphisms will generally result in a level of reduced fertility, because some gametes from one parent cannot successfully combine with all gametes of the other parent. However, when both parents contain matching chromosomal patterns, this obstacle does not occur. Further mutations in one group will not flow as rapidly into the other group as they do within the group in which it originally occurred.

I would have gone with some atheists. There is no single worldview defined by atheism - atheism is simply the lack of belief in a god. There are atheists who believe in witchcraft, for example.

You might become arrogant, too, of most of the people you argued against were young earth creationists.

Is that truly the only problem you have? If someone showed you a plausible mechanism for this to occur, would you accept evolution as plausible?

If, in our lifetime, we actually obtain very clear and definitive evidence for this, would you then accept evolution as the most likely theory for how this planet went from 'no hominids at all' to 'having tons of humans' ? (Intentionally leaving out the question of the origin of life).

Yeah, I can see your point there...
But there are explanations for these things, like that viruses can alter dna...

Well, it's not EXACTLY a theory, there is evolution happening all around us.
Just look at nature for examples:
They are seeing new behaviours in animals that they have never exhibited before (Monkeys learning to swim so they can eat seeds that have fallen to the bottom of a body of water, and using hot springs for warmth)
There's also physical changes still happening - just use google if you want proof. here, I even did it for you https://www.google.com/search?q=evolution+happening+around+us

It contradicts certain religious beliefs, but it also goes hand in hand with what Buddhists teach...
Hell, even the different universes/dimensions/etc theories go with Buddhist beliefs.
But who knows...